:: Sajda is not prostration ::
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I also believe sadja is physical and I too believe it is better to be safe then sorry, but I also think that sajda has mental aspects to it that can not be ignored, just as any of the other physical acts.
The way I see it is, that mind and body are connected, which is evident through life, and as long as I am doing the mental and physical then I will be ok by the will of Allah. For me, it just does not feel right if I only do one or the other, it's like i'm not complete.
Apparently your words just echoed my thoughts, and I totally agree with you. handshake
Peace. peace
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w/salaam,
salamun alaykum
I have a question is sajda is not physical then how did they recognize when the people had prostrated? It seems as though whatever prostration is they did it as the same time and together in groups which would be hard if it was other than physical.
4102 And when you are among them and lead them in salaa, let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
This verses is discussed in detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlYou may find it interesting to learn that no-one (who thinks sujud=physical prostration) attempted to tackle the problems highlighted therein. This can only be because of a few reasons
- the problems highlighted therein are weak/non-issues thus in no need of being addressed
- the problems highlighted therein are too problematic to address so best to avoid discussion of them
- there are solutions to the problems highlighted but people (for whatever reason) have declined to discuss them here
For example, even in this thread, Bigmo was challenged, and he claimed to have read the article but rebutted no points with evidence/logic/etc. Zero.
You may wish to ask yourself what is going on.
Background see the original discussion thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg266985#msg266985To clarify my view, please consider what I wrote very carefully
Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that no credible argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat can be made using The Quran.
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Salam Wakas
I read your article before and i'm agree with you. The concept of sujud falls or holds on with the definiton of SALAT.In the end i just can say that i love the prostration in my personal prayer, but my personal prayer is not the same as the SALAT prescribed in the Quran. My prayer is the DUA and the PRAISE and i make it more then twice daily.
peace ) -
w/salaam,
This verses is discussed in detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlYou may find it interesting to learn that no-one (who thinks sujud=physical prostration) attempted to tackle the problems highlighted therein. This can only be because of a few reasons
- the problems highlighted therein are weak/non-issues thus in no need of being addressed
- the problems highlighted therein are too problematic to address so best to avoid discussion of them
- there are solutions to the problems highlighted but people (for whatever reason) have declined to discuss them here
For example, even in this thread, Bigmo was challenged, and he claimed to have read the article but rebutted no points with evidence/logic/etc. Zero.
You may wish to ask yourself what is going on.
Background see the original discussion thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg266985#msg266985To clarify my view, please consider what I wrote very carefully
I felt its better to avoid this discussion with you because there is a personal tone in your style.
Plus you don't accept the overwhelming evidence from the OT and I believe your mind is made up anyways. I don't find your arguments convincing. But thats just me.
8420-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
1958 ...when were recited to them the signs of the Almighty, they fell SuJaD and weeping
3215 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant
You seem here to imply that the Quran can not mean everytime we hear the Quran or reminded of God's signs we have to prostrate.
When Abraham's servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the Lord. (Genesis, 2452)
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34
When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 164)
Then Joshua bowed to the ground in reverence...(Joshua, 514)
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The Lord?He is God! The Lord?He is God!"(1 Kings, 1839)
Genesis 171-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations
This is what the Quran is talking about and this is why it said their likeness in the Torah and Gospel. The Quran is comparing the worst types of people who mock and make fun and reject when they hear the signs of God or are reminded of them and the prophets who in a similar situation will fall right to the ground in reverence. Its showing us the worst and the best. It did not order us all to do that but gave us an example of the worst and the best. The Quran does that in many situations. It can not get more obvious than that. Each one of us according to our faith. The Quran says
If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought. 59.21
As far as how do we know who this person is prostrating to you seem to imply that a person is bowing to nothing but thin air. This is because you see prostration as an act and not a faith. When a person bows to a King we all know who he is prostrating to. But when he prostrates to God he does it out of faith. Because he knows even if he can not see God, God can see him.
I don't see how more obvious this can be.
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here. If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly? It is clear that physical prostration with noses and foreheads has nothing to do with it in this case.Thats the whole point of the verses you quoted about the disbelievers not doing sujood. They have a choice. But for the heavens and Earth and the sun and moon and trees and the wind all fall under God's domain. This is exactly as this
Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly. 41.11
These are all examples God gives us humans so we can reflect. Humans have a choice and this is God's way of showing us the magnitude of those humans who refuse to bow to God and prostrate to him and worship him. Humans are not considered here because they have a choice. Even humans their hearts and brains and veins and bones are all the functions of the human body bow to God and do their praise in their own way.
383 uses similar phrasing to 1315 but with "aSLaMa", and there is also "SaBiH" in 571 and 1744. What these three terms seem to have in common is that they contain an inherent subordinate relation. To me, there is a difference between "aSLaMa" in the true sense, and the theoretical or superficial sense. For example, if someone submits or makes peace to me, it would be true to say they are in "submission" to me, BUT this does not tell us if they are doing it out of free choice / sincerity, i.e. their own decision, or are just doing it for other reasons. Same can be said of SJD. If someone does so, this does not tell us if they are doing so out of free choice or with sincerity etc. That is why everything in universe SJD/SLM/SBH, it is only those who do so out of their own free choice will succeed. This perhaps explains why it mentions "willingly and unwillingly".
?????
Even if we take it means submission, how can God make someone submit unwillingly using your logic? And how do we know who this person is submiting and honoring? Just like you asked how do God make people prostrate unwillingly, than how can He make people submit unwillingly?
Thus, the most appropriate meanings are submissive, to honour, to pay respect.
If we consider what these words have in common along with ALL the other CAD meanings we can see that inherent to all is to give acknowledgement/recognition (in a subservient/submissive manner). This core meaning can be inserted in every occurrence and it makes perfect sense. If one completes a command, this can easily be considered an acknowledgment/recognition. With this understanding in mind, one should re-read all SJD occurrences that were reviewed.Reading the article was kind of painful to be honest. Lots of circles and assumptions and stuff thats hard to understand. Personally I think it would have been better to look at a few verses as an example and focus on them rather than to run through all these verses.
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Bigmo,
In brief
The Quran is comparing the worst types of people who mock and make fun and reject when they hear the signs of God or are reminded of them and the prophets who in a similar situation will fall right to the ground in reverence. Its showing us the worst and the best. It did not order us all to do that but gave us an example of the worst and the best. The Quran does that in many situations. It can not get more obvious than that. Each one of us according to our faith.
Thanks for clarifying you think the prophet (and likely his companions and followers) all fall to the ground when they heard Quran, and such commands are limited to that time, not us/all, without evidence.
As far as how do we know who this person is prostrating to you seem to imply that a person is bowing to nothing but thin air. This is because you see prostration as an act and not a faith. When a person bows to a King we all know who he is prostrating to. But when he prostrates to God he does it out of faith. Because he knows even if he can not see God, God can see him.
I don't see how more obvious this can be.
You still do not get it. In any case, thanks for clarifying that your implied position is that the hoopoe read the mind of the person prostrating.
Thats the whole point of the verses you quoted about the disbelievers not doing sujood. They have a choice. But for the heavens and Earth and the sun and moon and trees and the wind all fall under God's domain.
Humans are not considered here because they have a choice.
Unfortunately for you, the Arabic uses the word "man" which refers to sentient beings, i.e. humans. Please try again.
Even if we take it means submission, how can God make someone submit unwillingly using your logic? And how do we know who this person is submiting and honoring? Just like you asked how do God make people prostrate unwillingly, than how can He make people submit unwillingly?
You already answered your own question
Even humans their hearts and brains and veins and bones are all the functions of the human body bow to God and do their praise in their own way.
But we all know what you mean by "bow" dont we, and it isn't prostrate.
Reading the article was kind of painful to be honest.
Truth hurts?
In any case, if you wish to respond to my article, please do so on the original thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg266985#msg266985 -
Bigmo,
In brief
Thanks for clarifying you think the prophet (and likely his companions and followers) all fall to the ground when they heard Quran, and such commands are limited to that time, not us/all, without evidence.
You still do not get it. In any case, thanks for clarifying that your implied position is that the hoopoe read the mind of the person prostrating.
Unfortunately for you, the Arabic uses the word "man" which refers to sentient beings, i.e. humans. Please try again.
You already answered your own question
But we all know what you mean by "bow" dont we, and it isn't prostrate.Truth hurts?
In any case, if you wish to respond to my article, please do so on the original thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg266985#msg266985I never said that. I said many times they do just that. Just like when a King walks in some people bow right away. I showed you evidence from the OT that this is how some prophets did exactly and even some followers. Its not just Quran its whenever they encounter a religious experience. Just like when people win a match of tennis sometimes they fall to the ground in thanks.
Why should it? I meant its hard to comprehend and follows too many assumptions.. I do not think you understand just how hard your arguments are to follow let alone agree or disagree.
What exactly is the difference betwee bowing and prostrating? They are both ways to pray and glorify God just like standing straight as Zakaria did.
"Man" does not mean only what you said. Once again you make sweeping assumptions. And who exactly are those beings in the heavens anyways since you like sarcasm?
But anyways I used another example but you did not mention it.
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
Your only recourse now is to question what "atiya" means. God looks at created objects differently than us.
What i am interested in is this how do we know who is bowing to whom part. You said that I still do not get it. Well explain it then. There is a salafi feel to your argument but I could be wrong.
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I never said that. I said many times they do just that. Just like when a King walks in some people bow right away. I showed you evidence from the OT that this is how some prophets did exactly and even some followers. Its not just Quran its whenever they encounter a religious experience. Just like when people win a match of tennis sometimes they fall to the ground in thanks.
Which is it sometimes, many times, whenever? Make up your mind.
I know what you are trying to imply, you are trying to imply sometimes they do this, and its only some of them, and its only for them, not for others/all to do. Unfortunately, Quran does not say what you want it to say. Try again.
"Man" does not mean only what you said.
Look it up. Please bring evidence to the contrary.
But anyways I used another example but you did not mention it.
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
I did not mention it as its irrelevant. Please tell us how people physically prostrate to God unwillingly? Stop dodging the question.
What i am interested in is this how do we know who is bowing to whom part. You said that I still do not get it. Well explain it then.
There is no need to explain it. You are confused because you see sujud as physical prostration in those verses, yet on the other hand, you openly admit who/what the person is prostrating to is about their belief, so the only conclusion I can draw from your position is that the hoopoe was a mind-reader.
It is no problem if you think the hoopoe is a mind-reader, as this is all about putting evidence on the table, for each side, so we can better assess which option is most likely.
If you still do not get it. Find someone, a friend or family member, then tell them to observe you, and you go in a corner of the room and prostrate (any direction you like) then ask them "who or what did I prostrate to? (let them answer, IF they have an answer, then ask) And how did you work this out?". You will soon realise what I have been saying.
Let us know what they say Bigmo.
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Which is it sometimes, many times, whenever? Make up your mind.
I know what you are trying to imply, you are trying to imply sometimes they do this, and its only some of them, and its only for them, not for others/all to do. Unfortunately, Quran does not say what you want it to say. Try again.
Look it up. Please bring evidence to the contrary.
I did not mention it as its irrelevant. Please tell us how people physically prostrate to God unwillingly? Stop dodging the question.
There is no need to explain it. You are confused because you see sujud as physical prostration in those verses, yet on the other hand, you openly admit who/what the person is prostrating to is about their belief, so the only conclusion I can draw from your position is that the hoopoe was a mind-reader.
It is no problem if you think the hoopoe is a mind-reader, as this is all about putting evidence on the table, for each side, so we can better assess which option is most likely.
If you still do not get it. Find someone, a friend or family member, then tell them to observe you, and you go in a corner of the room and prostrate (any direction you like) then ask them "who or what did I prostrate to? (let them answer, IF they have an answer, then ask) And how did you work this out?". You will soon realise what I have been saying.
Let us know what they say Bigmo.
But then again the Quran never said that they always prostrate when they hear or reminded of the signs of God either.
There are many times the Quran talks about people and even jin hearing the Quran and tells us to pay attention and talks about us taking heed and trying to reflect and contemplate when hearing the Quran. Why use sujood then?
As far as the people knowing who prostrating to I still do not know why that is necessary. Anyways the hoopoe knew who he was prostrating to the same way the ants knew it was Suleiman and his army who were marching. How did the ants know it was Suleiman? Who told them?
Till, when they came to the valley of the ants, one of the ants said "O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulaim?n (Solomon) and his hosts crush you, while they perceive not."
Of course the ant may not have known who Suleiman was but the Quran simply states it like that because it was Suleiman they meant.
Just like when the Quran says
Leave Me with the one I created alone
And to whom I granted extensive wealth
And children present And spread before him, easing .
Then he desires that I should add more.Now this individual may not recognize that its God who has provided for him all that. But the Quran still talked about how he still wanted God to give him more since it is that what this guy wanted even if he may not know that.
Just like when the Quran tells us not to insult the gods of Meccans because they might insult God in their ignorance. The pagans may not believe that this God actually exists but God deals with them according to their knowledge.
The Quran can not be interpreted linguistically only since its unique and how God looks at His creatures and deals with them is not something we can relate to. To say that Planets and Sun do not prostrate is sweeping assumptions. This is the metaphysical world we can never understand and the goal of the Quran is to give us examples and make us reflect.
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The Quran can not be interpreted linguistically only since its unique and how God looks at His creatures and deals with them is not something we can relate to. To say that Planets and Sun do not prostrate is sweeping assumptions. This is the metaphysical world we can never understand and the goal of the Quran is to give us examples and make us reflect.
I prefer to take a middle view. I like to examine language as an experience rather than from dead texts (texts which cannot be verified in living conditions). The Quran is IN a human language but is it OF a human language. So perhaps if we used words as a jumping off point to achieve a metaphysical realisation?
This is akin to people like Ibn Arabi. While he was aware of common semantics, he was able to take his reading to much higher levels with his own spiritual depth. Take for example 'khalil' (referring to ibrahim in 4/125) is translated as 'friend' but Ibn Arabi connected it to 'takhallul' which means to penetrate. He then inferred that ibrahim was penetrated by the being of God.
In my examination of sajda, I find a physical posture is not implied in any aya with the word sajda. However, the effect can be physical such as in 17/107-109. You're right about the planets though, I would ask how yusuf saw any planets 'submitting'? I can't imagine any planet in the sajda posture nor can I imagine yusuf knowing how any planet can be submtting if it's simply movin in orbit.
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People who do physical prostration to Allah, cannot be proven that their salat won't be accepted. But people who are against physical prostration and/or deem it unnecessarry to perform in their salat are always at a risk of missing out something very important for which they may lose a big deal in the hereafter.
Salaam,
I think no body here says that it will not be accepted if you do physical prostration to Allah. And I think, no one IS against physical prostration.
About the risk of missing something and losing a big deal, I would like to add the following aayaat to understand this situation, inshaAllah.
676
676 So when the night covered him, he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."677
677 And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."678
678 And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.This is Ibrahim, who said a star is my Lord, moon is my Lord and sun is my Lord and he was at risk but he did not lose anything. But Allah has guided him to the truth when He saw Ibrahim taking the wrong way. So, if we are sincere from heart, then nothing to worry of taking wrong path. We have to keep your faith strong in Allah, and hope that Allah will surely guide us to the truth when we are trying to find the truth and seeking His help honestly.
Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam Bigmo,
I am Farouk A. Peru and I'd like to point out that I was not presenting an ALTERNATIVE interpretation. It is not alternative for the simple reason that I do not accept the prevalent version. I was presenting what I call the 'existentialist reading', a reading which I believe is most effective in application.I was presenting an interpretation based on the contextual flow of a few Chapters in which this story occurs. In that flow (which we can see in Chapters 7, 11 and 26) , this story occurs after the zenith of power in the story of Hud and Salih. Because stories flow into the story of Luth, I read them as social patterns.
There should be no 'default' position. If we don't read stories afresh then we are likely to carry baggages of previous readings. I want to avoid that if I can.
Indeed I did make assumptions in my presentation and I have no problem admitting that. Everyone makes assumptions in their reading, including you. What you have done is accepted the default position based on prevalent use of the language. Sajda in normative use is the physical prostration. So your ASSUMPTION was 'prevalent use of language is default. If it's not problematic (according to you), why seek to reinterpret'. Please correct me if im wrong.
What we shouldn't have are pretensions of objectivity. Thinking our position is devoid of subjective choices. This is where we begin to have delusions of authority producing the same kind of Islamofascism we had from the Sunnis. We claim our reading is 'quranic' and 'logical' and 'linguistic' when these are all nothing more than our own subjective claims. Reading the Quran should be a democratic activity and we should support people reading positively.
If you apply it literally and find you are moving forward in your journey towards Allah, then why bother with anything else? That is the purpose of the Quran, isn't it - the meeting with Allah (liqaa'ullah). I personally find the physical sajda very powerful even though I don't believe it's a divine command.
Good luck in your journey
Sorry I misses this post. I was refering to an assumption you made at the very begining. My view of homosexuality is not much different than yours but its the interpretation where I differ.
Could you pleae give me a link of that video you did so i can clarify what I meant by linguistic assumptions. I am not available to find it.
I love ur activism by the way. Wish I had your energy. Good for you.
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Bigmo,
Thanks for once again providing no specific evidence to counter, and not answering the questions. I am of course also aware you missed out other problems highlighted in the article. Not to worry, many have did the same as you.
I am happy to let forum readers, read what you and I said and make up their own mind.
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Bigmo Sorry I misses this post. I was refering to an assumption you made at the very begining. My view of homosexuality is not much different than yours but its the interpretation where I differ.
Could you pleae give me a link of that video you did so i can clarify what I meant by linguistic assumptions. I am not available to find it.
I love ur activism by the way. Wish I had your energy. Good for you.
Aha, I'd very interested to know what that would be. Thank you!
Here is the link http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkIoETBwxQ&list=PLLJbENTfuMiixmSgzX7XNQ3tSbRtaaOkM
And thanks for your kind words. I wish I had more energy. The Quranists Network aims to democratise the reading of the Quran so all disagreements are welcome as long as people are accommodating and courteous about it. After all, everyone has to answer for himself. The idea is to take whatever works from each other.
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In my examination of sajda, I find a physical posture is not implied in any aya with the word sajda. However, the effect can be physical such as in 17/107-109. You're right about the planets though, I would ask how yusuf saw any planets 'submitting'? I can't imagine any planet in the sajda posture nor can I imagine yusuf knowing how any planet can be submtting if it's simply movin in orbit.
Have you ever seen sunset? And the sun rise? I have amazing pictures of sun setting on the ocean and rising from the ocean. I am sure you have heard of people talking about sun shining. I have said things like "the sun was shining on me" and telling a child that the "sun is hiding behind the clouds." When I was a kid, I was convinced that the moon always followed me and that the sun went to sleep at night which meant it was time for me also to go to sleep.....
Does the sun rise or set? Does the sun shine on us? Does the sun set on the ocean? Absolutely not. The earth orbits in its axis and revolves the sun. To say that the sun rises, sets, shines, goes to sleep, prostrates, etc are just descriptions that we use - nothing mystical or metaphysical about it.
Mmkhan point is well taken....
2218 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.
Red highlighted part shows that everything in heavens and everything in earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and the moving creatures do Sajda to Allah.
Though, I would not say "accept the authority/position/honor of Allah" as acceptance involves thought process and decision either by free will or force. BUT I get mmkhan's point. The sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, trees, etc all "ABIDE" by the laws as designed by God. The earth revolves around the sun as that is how God designed the solar system. To say that the planets do "sujud" to God, basically I take that to mean that the planets are doing what God designed them to do. The laws of nature, physics, science are all laws of God. The trees follow the laws of nature (laws of God). The mountains, the animals, etc.
Now, when it comes to humans brings - at the biological level my cells are doing what they are designed to do. My heart beats in the way it was designed to beat. When I get an infection, my immune system mounts a response the way it was designed to do. My heart "sujuds" to God. As a human being, I have the free will to "sujud" to God. I can think and act the way that God wants me to. I can choose to abide by Gods laws or not. I can choose to "sujud" to God in accepting his authority
So sujud is not physical prostration. But sujud can also mean physical prostration I suppose depending on the context or subject.
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Salaam,
I think no body here says that it will not be accepted if you do physical prostration to Allah. And I think, no one IS against physical prostration.
About the risk of missing something and losing a big deal, I would like to add the following aayaat to understand this situation, inshaAllah.
676
676 So when the night covered him, he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."677
677 And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."678
678 And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.This is Ibrahim, who said a star is my Lord, moon is my Lord and sun is my Lord and he was at risk but he did not lose anything. But Allah has guided him to the truth when He saw Ibrahim taking the wrong way. So, if we are sincere from heart, then nothing to worry of taking wrong path. We have to keep your faith strong in Allah, and hope that Allah will surely guide us to the truth when we are trying to find the truth and seeking His help honestly.
Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhanPeace, brother.
I totally got what you mean, and I agree with you. handshake
peace
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Have you ever seen sunset? And the sun rise? I have amazing pictures of sun setting on the ocean and rising from the ocean. I am sure you have heard of people talking about sun shining. I have said things like "the sun was shining on me" and telling a child that the "sun is hiding behind the clouds." When I was a kid, I was convinced that the moon always followed me and that the sun went to sleep at night which meant it was time for me also to go to sleep.....
Does the sun rise or set? Does the sun shine on us? Does the sun set on the ocean? Absolutely not. The earth orbits in its axis and revolves the sun. To say that the sun rises, sets, shines, goes to sleep, prostrates, etc are just descriptions that we use - nothing mystical or metaphysical about it.
Mmkhan point is well taken....
2218 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.
Red highlighted part shows that everything in heavens and everything in earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and the moving creatures do Sajda to Allah.
Though, I would not say "accept the authority/position/honor of Allah" as acceptance involves thought process and decision either by free will or force. BUT I get mmkhan's point. The sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, trees, etc all "ABIDE" by the laws as designed by God. The earth revolves around the sun as that is how God designed the solar system. To say that the planets do "sujud" to God, basically I take that to mean that the planets are doing what God designed them to do. The laws of nature, physics, science are all laws of God. The trees follow the laws of nature (laws of God). The mountains, the animals, etc.
Now, when it comes to humans brings - at the biological level my cells are doing what they are designed to do. My heart beats in the way it was designed to beat. When I get an infection, my immune system mounts a response the way it was designed to do. My heart "sujuds" to God. As a human being, I have the free will to "sujud" to God. I can think and act the way that God wants me to. I can choose to abide by Gods laws or not. I can choose to "sujud" to God in accepting his authority
So sujud is not physical prostration. But sujud can also mean physical prostration I suppose depending on the context or subject.
The problem here is why would the Quran use sujud when it actually described everything you said in the words usually associated with them.
"And He who made the night for rest and sun and moon for reckoning of time. This is the decree of the Exalted, the All-knowing." (696)
"Allah is He, who created the sun, the moon, and the stars (all) governed by laws under His commandment." (754)
"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (105)
"Allah is He who raised heavens without pillars that you can see; Then He established Himself on the throne; And He subjected the sun and the moon (to his law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (132)
"It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies......... He has made subject to you, the night and the day; the sun and the moon; and the stars in subjection by His command." (1432-33)
"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit." (2133)
"See you not Allah merges night into day and day into night; And subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (3129)
"He created heavens and the earth in true proportions; He makes night overlap day and day overlap night and subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (395)
So why would it have to use sujood to decsrie these very activities if it already used appropriate words for them.
Also
"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day and the sun and moon. Prostrate not to the Sun and the Moon but Prostrate to Allah Who created them if it is Him ye wish to serve." (4137)
Here it actually tells us not to prostrate to the sun and moon but to prostrate to the One who created them. It can not mean "do not abide by the laws of the sun and moon but abide by the laws of God". I don't find these arguments convincing. It seems to me there must be an ideological reason why people do not want to see sujood as prostration.
Even when the Quran uses term like lamb and follows and covers which are allegorical descriptions they all are understood by their common usages and we all know what they mean. Why is it just sujood that has to be the mystery.
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do not have much knowledge and have not thought much about this topic to say anything more.
If sujud is a physical prostration then plugging in this definition to sura 2218, simply doesn't make sense. How does sun, moon, mountains, trees...physically prostrate? when i thought about the explanation that mmkhan proposed, it does makes sense and so I shared my thoughts. Now, could sujud also mean physical prostration, I suppose it could depending on the context and subject matter. And that is where I need to stop. I have not digested all of mmkhans post and you bring up some good points as well.
God willing will come to a better understanding in time.
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Btw - still digesting Wakas article on sujud. I read it once, twice, thrice. Many times. Is it just me?
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do not have much knowledge and have not thought much about this topic to say anything more.
If sujud is a physical prostration then plugging in this definition to sura 2218, simply doesn't make sense. How does sun, moon, mountains, trees...physically prostrate? when i thought about the explanation that mmkhan proposed, it does makes sense and so I shared my thoughts. Now, could sujud also mean physical prostration, I suppose it could depending on the context and subject matter. And that is where I need to stop. I have not digested all of mmkhans post and you bring up some good points as well.
God willing will come to a better understanding in time.
The point however is not how do they prostrate but what sujood means.
And thy Lord revealed to the bee `Make thou houses in the hills and in the trees and in the trellises which they build,
`Then eat all manner of fruits, and follow the ways taught to thee by thy Lord and which have been made easy for thee.' There comes from their bellies a drink of varying hues. Therein is a healing for mankind. Surely, in that is Sign for a people who reflect.
We may not understand this but the point is not how but what the term sujood means.
