:: Sajda is not prostration ::

abdalquran

Bigmo Sorry I misses this post. I was refering to an assumption you made at the very begining. My view of homosexuality is not much different than yours but its the interpretation where I differ.

Could you pleae give me a link of that video you did so i can clarify what I meant by linguistic assumptions. I am not available to find it.

I love ur activism by the way. Wish I had your energy. Good for you.

Aha, I'd very interested to know what that would be. Thank you!

Here is the link http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkIoETBwxQ&list=PLLJbENTfuMiixmSgzX7XNQ3tSbRtaaOkM

And thanks for your kind words. I wish I had more energy. The Quranists Network aims to democratise the reading of the Quran so all disagreements are welcome as long as people are accommodating and courteous about it. After all, everyone has to answer for himself. The idea is to take whatever works from each other.

justamuslim

In my examination of sajda, I find a physical posture is not implied in any aya with the word sajda. However, the effect can be physical such as in 17/107-109. You're right about the planets though, I would ask how yusuf saw any planets 'submitting'? I can't imagine any planet in the sajda posture nor can I imagine yusuf knowing how any planet can be submtting if it's simply movin in orbit.

Have you ever seen sunset? And the sun rise? I have amazing pictures of sun setting on the ocean and rising from the ocean. I am sure you have heard of people talking about sun shining. I have said things like "the sun was shining on me" and telling a child that the "sun is hiding behind the clouds." When I was a kid, I was convinced that the moon always followed me and that the sun went to sleep at night which meant it was time for me also to go to sleep.....

Does the sun rise or set? Does the sun shine on us? Does the sun set on the ocean? Absolutely not. The earth orbits in its axis and revolves the sun. To say that the sun rises, sets, shines, goes to sleep, prostrates, etc are just descriptions that we use - nothing mystical or metaphysical about it.

Mmkhan point is well taken....

2218 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.

Red highlighted part shows that everything in heavens and everything in earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and the moving creatures do Sajda to Allah.

Though, I would not say "accept the authority/position/honor of Allah" as acceptance involves thought process and decision either by free will or force. BUT I get mmkhan's point. The sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, trees, etc all "ABIDE" by the laws as designed by God. The earth revolves around the sun as that is how God designed the solar system. To say that the planets do "sujud" to God, basically I take that to mean that the planets are doing what God designed them to do. The laws of nature, physics, science are all laws of God. The trees follow the laws of nature (laws of God). The mountains, the animals, etc.

Now, when it comes to humans brings - at the biological level my cells are doing what they are designed to do. My heart beats in the way it was designed to beat. When I get an infection, my immune system mounts a response the way it was designed to do. My heart "sujuds" to God. As a human being, I have the free will to "sujud" to God. I can think and act the way that God wants me to. I can choose to abide by Gods laws or not. I can choose to "sujud" to God in accepting his authority

So sujud is not physical prostration. But sujud can also mean physical prostration I suppose depending on the context or subject.

Scribbler

Salaam,

I think no body here says that it will not be accepted if you do physical prostration to Allah. And I think, no one IS against physical prostration.

About the risk of missing something and losing a big deal, I would like to add the following aayaat to understand this situation, inshaAllah.

676
676 So when the night covered him, he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."

677
677 And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."

678
678 And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.

This is Ibrahim, who said a star is my Lord, moon is my Lord and sun is my Lord and he was at risk but he did not lose anything. But Allah has guided him to the truth when He saw Ibrahim taking the wrong way. So, if we are sincere from heart, then nothing to worry of taking wrong path. We have to keep your faith strong in Allah, and hope that Allah will surely guide us to the truth when we are trying to find the truth and seeking His help honestly.

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His path pr
mmKhan

Peace, brother.

I totally got what you mean, and I agree with you. handshake

peace

Bigmo

Have you ever seen sunset? And the sun rise? I have amazing pictures of sun setting on the ocean and rising from the ocean. I am sure you have heard of people talking about sun shining. I have said things like "the sun was shining on me" and telling a child that the "sun is hiding behind the clouds." When I was a kid, I was convinced that the moon always followed me and that the sun went to sleep at night which meant it was time for me also to go to sleep.....

Does the sun rise or set? Does the sun shine on us? Does the sun set on the ocean? Absolutely not. The earth orbits in its axis and revolves the sun. To say that the sun rises, sets, shines, goes to sleep, prostrates, etc are just descriptions that we use - nothing mystical or metaphysical about it.

Mmkhan point is well taken....

2218 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.

Red highlighted part shows that everything in heavens and everything in earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and the moving creatures do Sajda to Allah.

Though, I would not say "accept the authority/position/honor of Allah" as acceptance involves thought process and decision either by free will or force. BUT I get mmkhan's point. The sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, trees, etc all "ABIDE" by the laws as designed by God. The earth revolves around the sun as that is how God designed the solar system. To say that the planets do "sujud" to God, basically I take that to mean that the planets are doing what God designed them to do. The laws of nature, physics, science are all laws of God. The trees follow the laws of nature (laws of God). The mountains, the animals, etc.

Now, when it comes to humans brings - at the biological level my cells are doing what they are designed to do. My heart beats in the way it was designed to beat. When I get an infection, my immune system mounts a response the way it was designed to do. My heart "sujuds" to God. As a human being, I have the free will to "sujud" to God. I can think and act the way that God wants me to. I can choose to abide by Gods laws or not. I can choose to "sujud" to God in accepting his authority

So sujud is not physical prostration. But sujud can also mean physical prostration I suppose depending on the context or subject.

The problem here is why would the Quran use sujud when it actually described everything you said in the words usually associated with them.

"And He who made the night for rest and sun and moon for reckoning of time. This is the decree of the Exalted, the All-knowing." (696)

"Allah is He, who created the sun, the moon, and the stars (all) governed by laws under His commandment." (754)

"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (105)

"Allah is He who raised heavens without pillars that you can see; Then He established Himself on the throne; And He subjected the sun and the moon (to his law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (132)

"It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies......... He has made subject to you, the night and the day; the sun and the moon; and the stars in subjection by His command." (1432-33)

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit." (2133)

"See you not Allah merges night into day and day into night; And subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (3129)

"He created heavens and the earth in true proportions; He makes night overlap day and day overlap night and subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law); each one runs its course for a term appointed." (395)

So why would it have to use sujood to decsrie these very activities if it already used appropriate words for them.

Also

"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day and the sun and moon. Prostrate not to the Sun and the Moon but Prostrate to Allah Who created them if it is Him ye wish to serve." (4137)

Here it actually tells us not to prostrate to the sun and moon but to prostrate to the One who created them. It can not mean "do not abide by the laws of the sun and moon but abide by the laws of God". I don't find these arguments convincing. It seems to me there must be an ideological reason why people do not want to see sujood as prostration.

Even when the Quran uses term like lamb and follows and covers which are allegorical descriptions they all are understood by their common usages and we all know what they mean. Why is it just sujood that has to be the mystery.

justamuslim

@Bigmo

do not have much knowledge and have not thought much about this topic to say anything more.

If sujud is a physical prostration then plugging in this definition to sura 2218, simply doesn't make sense. How does sun, moon, mountains, trees...physically prostrate? when i thought about the explanation that mmkhan proposed, it does makes sense and so I shared my thoughts. Now, could sujud also mean physical prostration, I suppose it could depending on the context and subject matter. And that is where I need to stop. I have not digested all of mmkhans post and you bring up some good points as well.

God willing will come to a better understanding in time.

justamuslim

Btw - still digesting Wakas article on sujud. I read it once, twice, thrice. Many times. Is it just me?

Bigmo

@Bigmo

do not have much knowledge and have not thought much about this topic to say anything more.

If sujud is a physical prostration then plugging in this definition to sura 2218, simply doesn't make sense. How does sun, moon, mountains, trees...physically prostrate? when i thought about the explanation that mmkhan proposed, it does makes sense and so I shared my thoughts. Now, could sujud also mean physical prostration, I suppose it could depending on the context and subject matter. And that is where I need to stop. I have not digested all of mmkhans post and you bring up some good points as well.

God willing will come to a better understanding in time.

The point however is not how do they prostrate but what sujood means.

And thy Lord revealed to the bee `Make thou houses in the hills and in the trees and in the trellises which they build,

`Then eat all manner of fruits, and follow the ways taught to thee by thy Lord and which have been made easy for thee.' There comes from their bellies a drink of varying hues. Therein is a healing for mankind. Surely, in that is Sign for a people who reflect.

We may not understand this but the point is not how but what the term sujood means.

Timur

Peace Bigmo.

The point however is not how do they prostrate but what sujood means.

If you define sujud as physical prostration as performed by the sunnis, the "how" is already given. Hence you have already admitted that sujud does not mean physical prostration, haven't you?

Wakas

Btw - still digesting Wakas article on sujud. I read it once, twice, thrice. Many times. Is it just me?

Can you clarify the issue you are having? i.e. is it an issue of uncertainty about points made, or, you simply like reading it often as it's good?

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo.

If you define sujud as physical prostration as performed by the sunnis, the "how" is already given. Hence you have already admitted that sujud does not mean physical prostration, haven't you?

I never said anything about as performing by Sunnis. In fact every religion we know of had prostration or bowing or kneeling of some sort. This is how humans pray. This is how the previous scriptures understands it. You do not have to prostrate and even the Quran gave multiple ways to worship like standing, kneeling or bowing or even doing tawaf as some religions do.

Baha'i Faith

In the Bah?'? Faith, a single prostration is performed before the recitation of each obligatory prayer and in the case of traveling, a prostration is performed in place of each missed obligatory prayer in addition to saying "Glorified be God, the Lord of Might and Majesty, of Grace and Bounty". However, if unable to do so, saying "Glorified be God" is sufficient. There are specifics about where the prostration can take place including, "God hath granted you leave to prostrate yourselves on any surface that is clean..." (#10) and "He also condemns such practices as prostrating oneself before another person and other forms of behaviour that abase one individual in relation to another". #57

Buddhism

Main article Prostration (Buddhism)

In Buddhism, prostrations are universally used to build confidence to and gratitude for the gifts of the Triple Gem
the Awakened One (Sanskrit/Pali Buddha) (in this meaning, to own potential)
his teaching (Sanskrit Dharma; Pali Dhamma)
his community (Sangha) of noble disciples (ariya-savaka).

White-clad deacon candidates prostrate before the altar of the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in Los Angeles during a diaconate ordination liturgy.
In addition, different schools within Buddhism use prostrations in various ways, such as the Tibetan tantric preliminary practice of a 100,000 prostrations as a means of overcoming pride (see Ng?ndro).

Greek Orthodox pilgrims making prostrations at Golgotha in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem.
Christianity

In Christianity, the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican churches use prostrations during the imposition of Holy Orders, Religious Profession and the Consecration of Virgins. In the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, prostrations ("profound bows&quot can be used in place of genuflections for those who are unable to genuflect. The prostration is always performed before God, and in the case of holy orders, profession oder consecration the candidates prostrate theirself in front of the altar which is a symbol of Christ.

Full prostrations, lit., "low bows" (zemnoy poklon) are common in Eastern Orthodox worship, and are used in conjunction with the Sign of the Cross, at specific moments during the services and when venerating relics or icons. However, the use of full prostrations is traditionally discouraged on the Lord's Day (Sunday), during Paschaltide (Easter season) and on Great Feasts of the Lord. During Great Lent, and Holy Week, prostrations are especially encouraged in all the Eastern Churches (see Prayer of St. Ephraim). Orthodox Christian will also make prostrations in front of people (though in this case without the Sign of the Cross, as it is not an act of veneration or divine worship), such as the bishop, one's spiritual father or one another when asking forgiveness (in particular at the Vespers service which begins Great Lent on the afternoon of the Sunday of Forgiveness.) Those who are physically unable to make full prostrations may instead substitute metanias (bows at the waist).

Oriental Orthodox also prostrate during daily prayers. Syrian Orthodox Christians should prostrate during all daily prayers, except on days which the Holy Liturgy is celebrated.

Hinduism

In Hinduism, eight-limbed (ashtanga pranama) and five-limbed (panchanga pranama) prostrations are included in the religious ritual of puja.

Jainism

In Jainism, there is a great importance placed on prostration, especially when a devotee is in the temples or in front of high souls. It represents the surrendering of ego.

Judaism

In Judaism, the Tanakh and Talmudic texts as well as writings of Gaonim and Rishonim indicate that prostration was very common among Jewish communities until some point during the Middle Ages. In Mishneh Torah, Maimonides states full prostration (with one's body pressed flat to the earth) should be practiced at the end of the Amidah, recited thrice daily. Members of the Karaite denomination practice full prostrations during prayers. Traditionally, Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews prostrated during Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, as did Yemenite Jews during the Tachanun part of daily Jewish prayer. Ethiopian Jews traditionally prostrated during a holiday specific to their community known as Sigd. Sigd comes from a root word meaning prostration in Ge'ez, Aramaic, and Arabic. There is a movement among Talmide haRambam to revive prostration as a regular part of daily Jewish worship.

Sikhism

Sikhs prostrate in front of Guru Granth Sahib, the holy scripture of the Sikhs. Sikhs consider Guru Granth Sahib as their living Guru and the unchanging word of God thus, by prostrating, Sikhs present their head to their Guru, awaiting command, which is taken in the form of a hukamnama, or a random opening of Guru Granth Sahib to reveal an edict for the individual or congregation (similar to the ancient Roman practice of sortes sanctorum, a form of bibliomancy). Sikhs call the prostration mutha tekna ("lowering the forehead&quot. Whenever and however many times a Sikh is in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib he will prostrate, usually upon the initial sight of Guru Granth Sahib and again upon leaving the presence of Guru Granth Sahib. Sikhs, in their personal worship (morning Nitnem and evening Rehras), will prostrate upon the completion of prayers and the ardaas. The direction of prostration is not important as Sikhs place emphasis on the omnipresence of God however, if it is possible, Sikhs tend to prostrate in the direction in which bani (books containing the word of God, such as the Gutka Sahib or Pothi Sahib) are kept. Other prostrations practiced by Sikhs from an Indian culture are touching of the feet to show respect and great humility (generally done to grandparents and other family elders). Full prostration is reserved for Guru Granth Sahib, as prostration is considered to be the ultimate act of physical humility and veneration.

Other contexts

Kowtow in an Imperial Chinese court.
Outside of traditional religious institutions, prostrations are used to show deference to worldly power, in the pursuit general spiritual advancement and as part of a physical-health regimen.

Hawaii

In ancient Hawaii, a form of prostration known as kapu moe required all to prostrate in the presence of a naupio or a pio chief on the pain of death. The only people exempt from this were chiefs of the next grade the naha and wohi chiefs who were required to sit in their presence. Other Polynesian group are known to practice this.

Imperial China

In Imperial China, a form of prostration known as a ktou was used as a sign of respect and submission.

Japan

In Japan the name of the prostration used is called seiza or the more ancient term Dogeza was used as a sign of deep respect and submission for the elders of a family, guests, Samurai, Daimyo and the Emperor.

Martial arts

Shugyo in martial arts, particularly in the Shotokai and Kyokushin styles of Karate, it is a form of extreme spiritual discipline.

Yoga

Main article Surya Namaskara

In modern yoga practice, "sun salutations" (srya namaskra) are a regular part of practitioners' routines. Such a practice may be used for both maintaining physical well-being and spiritual attainment.

Yoruba "Doba'le"/"Ikun'le"

In traditional and contemporary Yoruba culture, younger male family and community members greet elders by assuming a position called "doba'le". The traditional, full Yoruba prostration involves the prostrator lying down almost prone with his feet extended behind his torso while the rest of his weight is propped up on both hands. This traditional form is being replaced by a more informal bow and touching the fingertips to the floor in front of an elder with one hand, while bending slightly at the knee. The female form of the greeting is the "ikun'le", a form of kneeling where the younger party bows to one or both knees in front of an elder relative or community member. Both gestures are widely practiced; to not perform them would be considered ill-mannered.

Modified versions of both greetings are also common in traditional Yoruba religious and cultural contexts in the African Diaspora, particularly in Brazil and Cuba.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo and all

thank you for your detailed post - the prostrate is actually among all peoples widespread.
So I come to a question that I have already asked in another topic We see that traditional Jews bind a black cube at their front-heads and do prostrate with this (on this?) ,the Shias prostrate on virgin soil of Qerbala and the 'normal' Muslims prostrate themselves in the direction of a black cube. Can we see here not quite clear how 'schaitanic' forces lead people to bow down before something other than Allah?
peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I am uncomfortable prostrating on this soil from Karbala down here, but sometimes I have to conceal my faith. To believe you have to prostrate on this, or as in the Jewish case, seems like inventing laws not authorized by God.

Praying towards the Kabah would be fine as long as it is a sanctified place. But I think the building is just covered in black, it is not meant to be like that. Also, I thought, keeping a building intact for thousands of years is difficult, buildings have a maximum age, despite maintenance. Sooner or later the building will deteriorate.

The Kabaah is just like the temple in Jerusalem used to be, a Beacon. You should pray towards something that reminds you of God, the Kabah has been serving that purpose, but now it has unfortunately been associated with idolatry pretty much. I studied the Bible and you can clearly see that people aimed their prayers towards the temple in Jerusalem, the House of God.

However, just like in the age of Muhammad, the Kabah has become a site for pagan worship, giving Allah partners.

If you study the Bible you can see in the New Testament that Jesus throws out people who use the temple in Jerusalem for other purposes than praying. So not only Kabah has been misused historically.

God bless you

mirjamnur

Salam Man of faith
thank you )

Man_of_Faith

Salaam again,

I did some research, since I got curious after my last post, and read information about the Kabah. I discovered that the Kabah was rebuilt 1627 due to rainwater causing the walls to collapse, it is not illogical that this natural phenomenon could cause it and the old structure was probably vulnerable. The probability that it happened more times over the thousands of years is high.

A remnant wall piece from the old Mosque is still present at the site. And did you know the kabah was not a cubic building?

The Kabah today is probably just a tiny bit of what it once was. And I doubt it was covered in black. It feels the form and black fabric is just to make it an item to worship, it feels like a statue, does it not remind you of pagan worship?

The Kabah today gives me a slight psychedelic feeling to be honest.

I am almost absolutely certain the location is the correct one and I even think Moses came there. I think it was the zamzam well that he came to. Now it is my theory, and I do not claim this, it is only in my philosophies. I also think the mountain Moses went to is somewhat north of Mecca.

I apologize sincerely to those who may have been offended by my words, but this feels like the Truth to me. I feel it has become an item of worship, this cube. It is not a building, it is an object of worship. I do not ridicule anyone for praying toward the Kabah, I do so myself, even if the old sacred Mosque is something else these days. But I certainly want to seek the Truth about the Kabah and I am open to other rational ideas and explanations too.

Someone said that there was a verse telling Moses people to turn their houses into Qiblahs? The word Qiblah seems to mean a house of prayer rather than a direction for prayer. I felt that Qiblah means a building with some special feature or features. I still think what makes a Qiblah.

The Bible talks about altars, do you think this item is just a piece of paganism or does it have to do with God's religion? Did it have any other use than for sacrifices? Could it be an item of worship which helps you focus on God or is it just a man-made invention?

Anyone thought about the verse which talks about dressing nice and be clean for the Masjid? I wonder why it says to eat and drink moderately in the same verse. I had that crazy thought that this word does not mean the same thing as it is thought to mean (Masjid). Was a really crazy and controversial thought, I know, but could not help it since it felt so incoherent with Masjid and eat and drink moderately in the same verse. Otherwise I suppose I simply cannot understand God and He knows better. Or does anyone have a rational explanation to this?

I say like Jewish Dude,

Just some crazy thoughts. ..

God bless you

Wakas

peace MofF, all,

A telling analysis of "qiblah" was done here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

change of qiblah - an understanding based on Quran
The information we can extract about the meaning of "qiblah", and the change, from these verses is as follows
this new change is in some way related to guiding to a straight/establishing path, and making the believers a balanced/moderate community
the qiblah which they were on was a great test (i.e. difficult), except those God guided, and their belief in such was not going to be for nothing
in this case the qiblah happens to be AMAH, but there are potentially many other qiblah, as individuals could have their own qiblah
in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal)" with "qiblah" and consequently likens AMAH to "race to the good" or at least we can say AMAH involves this. Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding.
the effects of this change will be less debate from the people, lead to God completing His favour, aid guiding, and bringing you all together.
wherever one is they should turn their wajh/purpose/consideration in the direction of AMAH, and from the contexts that likley involves being oriented towards the truth of your Lord, the good, and uniting of believers
To me, "turning one's wajh in the sky" in 2144 comes across as an idiom, so whilst it could be literally translated as "turning one's face IN the sky" it is implying one is directionless, aimless, floating/blowing in the wind, i.e. no plan/goal to progress, looking/searching for a way/resolution. Interestingly it is listed in 'Verbal Idioms of Quran' by Mustansir Mir but explained as he turned his face towards the heaven so often that it is added emphasis to say his face was IN the heaven, even though it literally is not. Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that it is taken by all to mean he was seeking guidance. The new qiblah resolves this, and is also pleasing, implying a possible easing of argumentation/hostility for the believers, which would tie in with "no debate against you".
As a side note, the only other use of "wly/turn" in these verses other than "turn+wajh" is 2148 "...he turns towards it (wijhatun/course/goal)", which is primarily figurative and not taken physical-directional by anyone. This may help indicate the type of turning being referred to in these verses.

Based on the above, usage of the root QBL in AQ, CAD meanings, and the only other occurrence of "qiblah" in 1087, in terms of likelihood for the meaning of "qiblah", in my view, are

focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action

Bigmo