SAlat

unknownuser

Salaams Hlatif,
lookoing at your recent post alone

As for the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan"

When you are very shy or very embarassed you lower your face (Kharr) till your chin touches your chest which is the lowest face that you can do. this AYA that comes just after 17107 may give some more light on that description.

Wayakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
They lower their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

-Athqani = chins or faces ?

36108 (for comparision)

Verily we have put on their necks iron collars so these up to the chins (Alathqaani) so that they (are)made stiff-reached/ necked.

So 17107-108 becomes

Say believe in it or do not believe verily those who were given knowledge before it when it is recited to them they come on their chins submitting (Sujadan).

I.E This to me is a sajood but by lowering the chin , and when nothing physical is mentioned - then of course there is no physicallity involved.

Your previous quotes of ayats depicting a physical sajood were floored because of mistranslatings.

I hope i am not misunderstanding your post.

By the way have you seen the jews do sajood by their veilling wall,nodding their heads - sajood on their chins?

Thanks.

Naishaannisa

Salam Alaikum

how would you go about analyzing this ayat?

004.043
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

could some give their views on this it would be appreciate. Physical or allegorical?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Naishaannisa,

My understanding of "salaat" is that it is the process. The process of learning/memory. The METHOD of this process is to read the signs of the God (wether it is the cration itself, or the reading) at dawn and dusk.

The God tells us not to come near this process while we are intoxicated UNTIL we know what we are SAYING. SAYING is a key word which denotes that it has to do with speech/reading, not commitments in general.

The rest is regarding the process of cleansing the LOWEST PART OF THE BEING, the physical body, because we start at the bottom and work our way up to the highest part of the BEING. We remind ourselves from the beginning that we are creations of water and earth(clay).

We remember this because far too many of us have fallen under the illusion that we are our bodies themselves.

unknownuser

Salaams Naisha,

Something other that may be help

O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

So after excreting feces,according to this translation funny all you need to do is wipe your faces and your hands (if you can't find water),and you then can take part in a salah!

The following is better

O you who believe, do not come near the SALAAT while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or DID A THING one of you FROM EXCRETION OF feces or sexual contact with the women and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your SELVES(YOUR ASSES ,IN THIS CASE) and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

This verse is describing some basic hygienic manners before meeting with people, in order to avoid illness transmission.

Now the following is better still

O you who believe, do not come near the SALAAT while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or DID A THING one of you FROM EXCRETION OF feces, or sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall wipe your SELVES with clean soil. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Tnanks.

hlatif

Thanks for your posts brother mz357,

The litteral most basic translation of the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

yakhirroon they fall or lower
lilto or till
athqan chins or beards.

therefore the statment can be understood in many ways since it leaves many specifics open. does the whole body lower or just part of it? till the chin reach where?. You understand it as falling on their chin and you like this explanantion because it is illogical. I understand it differently and this is my understanding

" they fall or lower(may be their face) till the chin (may be reach the chest)" I may be wrong and I may be right.

As for the physical aspect of the prayer. How can you explain those ayats

Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumualssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhummaAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-ithasajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatunokhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAakawalya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahumwadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikumwaamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatanwala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athanmin matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakumwakhuthoo hithrakum inna AllahaaAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

I find this Ayah very physical stand up in prayer, Arms, people behind people...

Waallatheena yabeetoonalirabbihim sujjadan waqiyaman
Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;

This indicates a movement of standing and prostrating. Something that people don't do mentally (at least tome)

Thank you and I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Hussein

ayman

Peace brother Hussein,

The litteral most basic translation of the "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" is like this

yakhirroon they fall or lower
lilto or till
athqan chins or beards.

"thaqn" doesn't mean beard. The word "li7yat" means beard and that is how it is used in the great reading.

therefore the statment can be understood in many ways since it leaves many specifics open. does the whole body lower or just part of it? till the chin reach where?. You understand it as falling on their chin and you like this explanantion because it is illogical. I understand it differently and this is my understanding

" they fall or lower(may be their face) till the chin (may be reach the chest)" I may be wrong and I may be right.

If The God said "fall to the forehead" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you see "sujud" primary meaning as physical, it is fine, just obey The God and do your "sujud" to the chin and NOT the forehead. It is difficult but not impossible.

The only source for "sujud" being to the forehead are the idolaters.

As for the physical aspect of the prayer. How can you explain those ayats

Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

The three commands are related and simultaneous. There is not single verse of the great reading that says we should do "ruk3" first and then/"thuma" "sujud".

Is "uqnoti" (be devoted) physical?

How can Maryam physically prostrate and bow down at the same time?

How can Maryam "physically bow down with others" when we know from other signs that she was alone when the "malaika" came to her.

The meaning is "be devoted, hear and obey, and be humble with those who are humble".

Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumualssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhummaAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-ithasajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatunokhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAakawalya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahumwadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikumwaamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatanwala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athanmin matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakumwakhuthoo hithrakum inna AllahaaAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

I find this Ayah very physical stand up in prayer, Arms, people behind people...

How do you take your arms with you while "physically prostrating". Can you take a tank with you while physically prostrating? Of course not. On the other hand, you can listen to lessons and war commands based on the great reading while manning your tank. Once the learning process is completed and every body complies, then other troops should come and learn their commands. This is elementary war tactics. You don't have all of your army in a hall learning from the commander. Some learn their orders, while others stand watch. This is natural.

Waallatheena yabeetoonalirabbihim sujjadan waqiyaman
Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;

This indicates a movement of standing and prostrating. Something that people don't do mentally (at least tome)

Thank you and I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Do you spend the whole night in physical prostration on the ground? What purpose does that accomplish?

Does this mean that someone who is handicapped cannot be amongst the people described in 2564? There is no exception given.

Can you stand and physically prostrate at the same time?

When The God says "aqimu al-salat" does it mean "stand" or "establish/persist"? By the same token, "qiyam" means establish/persist.

So the meaning is "hear and obey and persist"

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman

hlatif

Salam Brother Ayman,

I am afraid that I am not convinced by your interpretations

hlatif wrote
As for the physical aspect of the prayer. How can you explain those ayats

Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

[]

The three commands are related and simultaneous. There is not single verse of the great reading that says we should do "ruk3" first and then/"thuma" "sujud".

I disagree. The arabic language is full of expressions like this and they do not mean that they have to be done simltaneaously. For example we say "akal wa shareb" meaning "ate and drank" This does not necessarily mean that you ate and you drank with a single gulp. In fact, most people don't, yet they use this term. There are thousnds of examples like that.

Is "uqnoti" (be devoted) physical?

No

How can Maryam physically prostrate and bow down at the same time?

As I pointed out they don't have to be at the same time.

How do you take your arms with you while "physically prostrating". Can you take a tank with you while physically prostrating? Of course not. On the other hand, you can listen to lessons and war commands based on the great reading while manning your tank.

The Aya specifically addresses the prophet muhammad himself. There were no tanks at the time. In addition, I am not aware that SALAT can mean LESSONS and war commands.

Do you spend the whole night in physical prostration on the ground?

I don't but people better than me have done lots of prayer at night prostrating and standing.

Does this mean that someone who is handicapped cannot be amongst the people described in 2564? There is no exception given.

GOD indicated in the book that he does not ask of us what we cannot do. They have their licence.

quote]Can you stand and physically prostrate at the same time? [/quote

Again the Ayah does not say that and neither does the arabic language indicate it.

Salam and thanks for the stimulating discussion

Hussein

unknownuser

Salaams Br Latif,

005.055
YUSUFALI Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
PICKTHAL Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
SHAKIR Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

You are no daught well tallented.now looking at this ayat ,can/is Rakiuon part of the Salaat?Not to me from my understanding of the verse !

Salaams.

hlatif

Salam Brother mz357,

Thanks for the referral to the Ayah 555. The way I understant the arabic of the Ayah is closer to Shakir's understanding rather than the others

SHAKIR Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

Sahkir used While rather than AND and the Arabic is closer to that. Also I understand that the "while bowing" covers both "While paying the poor and while praying."

Having said that, your understanding is reasonable. In any case, even if the Rukouu was not mentioned as part of prayer in this Ayah, this does not necessarily exclude Rukouu from prayer.

For example you wash your hands when you are getting ready to eat. This will not prevent you from washing your hands when you are ready to pray or when you use the bathroom. It is not mutually exclusive.

Salam brother

Hussein

ayman

Peace brother Hussein,

I disagree. The arabic language is full of expressions like this and they do not mean that they have to be done simltaneaously. For example we say "akal wa shareb" meaning "ate and drank" This does not necessarily mean that you ate and you drank with a single gulp. In fact, most people don't, yet they use this term. There are thousnds of examples like that.

This is a good example, in 2187 we hear "kulu wa ishrabu" (eat and drink) and it doesn't mean that we should eat first and then drink. Some people would drink while others are eating. Hence, there is no specific order. In other instances it is used to indicate simultaneous action sort of like "while" in English. In the instance of 343 was Maryam "devout" then she was no longer devout and "did sujud" then she was no longer in "sujud" and "did ruku3"? No, she was devout all along and in "sujud" all along.

How do you take your arms with you while "physically prostrating". Can you take a tank with you while physically prostrating? Of course not. On the other hand, you can listen to lessons and war commands based on the great reading while manning your tank.

The Aya specifically addresses the prophet muhammad himself. There were no tanks at the time. In addition, I am not aware that SALAT can mean LESSONS and war commands.

According to evidence from the great reading, the term "salat" describes a learning process/connection not some ritual. Hence, when it is said that The God "yusali" on those who have faith, this doesn't mean that He bows and prostrates in a 2,4,4,3,4 mechnical ritual. It means that He teaches those who have faith. Remember that The God is the Teacher of the reading.

How else do we remember other than by learning? On the other hand, a ritual only makes us remember the mechanical steps but makes us forget the purpose. In the context of war, what would you need to learn?

Do you spend the whole night in physical prostration on the ground?

I don't but people better than me have done lots of prayer at night prostrating and standing.

No sane and balanced person does.

Does this mean that someone who is handicapped cannot be amongst the people described in 2564? There is no exception given.

GOD indicated in the book that he does not ask of us what we cannot do. They have their licence.

When someone can't do something, for example "sawm"/abstaining and "7ajj", The God gives them license. There is NEVER such license in the case of "salat", "sujud", and "ruku3". Why give license in the case of "sawm" but no license in the case of "salat"?

Again, If you see "sujud" primary meaning as physical, it is fine, just obey The God and do your "sujud" to the chin and NOT the forehead. Othersiwe, please tell us what is your source for "sujud" being to the forehead?

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman

unknownuser

Salaam Hlatif,

This is what/how i underetsand it

555

Only your friend (is)Allah and his Messenger and those who believe those who establish the salaat and give zakaat and they (are) those who bow down.

But you take it as you see it thanks.

God bless,
Bye.

hafeez_kazi

Peace all.

RAAKIcON = THOSE WHO BOW

SAAJIDON = THOSE WHO PROSTRATE

And be steadfast in prayer; practice regular charity; and (IRKAcO) bow down (MacA) with (AR- RAAKIcEN) THOSE who bow down. 243

"O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly; prostrate thyself and (IRKAcE) bow down (MacA) with (AR- RAAKIcEN) THOSE who bow down." 343

Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah His Apostle and the (fellowship of) believers those who establish regular prayers and regular charity (WA HUM) and they (are) (RAAKIcON) THOSE who bow down 555

(Triumphant) are (AT- TAA'IBON ) THOSE who turn repentant (to Allah), (AL- cAABIDON) those who serve (Him), (AL- H.AAMIDON) THOSE who praise (Him), (AS- SAA'IH.ON) THOSE who fast, (AR RAAKIcON) THOSE who bow down, (AS- SAAJIDON) THOSE who fall prostrate, (AL- 'AAMIRON) THOSE who enjoin the right and who forbid the wrong and (AL- H.AAFIZ.ON) THOSE who keep the limits (ordained) of Allah And give glad tidings to believers! 9112

This is enough for brother HUSSEIN

Thanks

hlatif

Salams to brothers Ayman, mz357 and Kazi,

Thanks Brother Hafeez for your response.

I will respond to brother Ayman first and then to brother mz357

In the instance of 343 was Maryam "devout" then she was no longer devout and "did sujud" then she was no longer in "sujud" and "did ruku3"? No, she was devout all along and in "sujud" all along.

Just because she remains devout, does not mean that the other actions have to be simultaneous as well.

When someone can't do something, for example "sawm"/abstaining and "7ajj", The God gives them license. There is NEVER such license in the case of "salat", "sujud", and "ruku3". Why give license in the case of "sawm" but no license in the case of "salat"?

GOD asks us to do what we can do

La yukallifu Allahu nafsanilla wusAAaha laha ma kasabatwaAAalayha ma iktasabat rabbana latu-akhithna in naseena aw akhta/narabbana wala tahmil AAalayna isrankama hamaltahu AAala allatheena minqablina rabbana wala tuhammilnama la taqata lana bihi waoAAfuAAanna waighfir lana wairhamnaanta mawlana faonsurna AAalaalqawmi alkafireena
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

Therefore, a person in a wheel chair will be asked to do what he/she can.

Again, If you see "sujud" primary meaning as physical, it is fine, just obey The God and do your "sujud" to the chin and NOT the forehead. Othersiwe, please tell us what is your source for "sujud" being to the forehead?

According to "Qamus Muheet" one of the meanings of the root (SJD) and it's derivatives is "To tilt the head down" . The lowest point that you can tilt your head down to is "Till your chin stops" which is when the chin touches the chest. I explained this in an earlier post.

As for brother mz357, you mentioned

and they (are) those who bow down.

I will go to the literal arabic trasnlation to explain my point

"Wa Hum Rakioun"
Wa means "and"
Hum means "They"
Rakioun means "Bowing" The whole thing becomes "and they bowing"
I add that there is not a word "While" in arabic and the "Wa" is used to mean "while"

So, I see "and they bowing" as a description/adjective of the ones that pray and pay alms, adn not as a separate action as you see it. GOD knows best

I hope that I am helpful to y'all, because you have been helpful to me in many ways through our disagreements.

Hussein

ayman

Peace brother Hussein,

In the instance of 343 was Maryam "devout" then she was no longer devout and "did sujud" then she was no longer in "sujud" and "did ruku3"? No, she was devout all along and in "sujud" all along.

Just because she remains devout, does not mean that the other actions have to be simultaneous as well.

So at least you acknowledge that the first "wa"/and does denote a simultaneous action. So what reason do you have to understand the second "wa" and the third "wa" differently and not consistently with the first one?

There is another verse that says "li Allah yasjud ma fi al-samawat wa ma fi al-ard". The verb yasjud is in the CONTINUOUS present tense.

Clearly, one can CONTIUOUSLY hear and obey The God but not continuously physically push his head against the floor.

When someone can't do something, for example "sawm"/abstaining and "7ajj", The God gives them license. There is NEVER such license in the case of "salat", "sujud", and "ruku3". Why give license in the case of "sawm" but no license in the case of "salat"?

GOD asks us to do what we can do

La yukallifu Allahu nafsanilla wusAAaha laha ma kasabatwaAAalayha ma iktasabat rabbana latu-akhithna in naseena aw akhta/narabbana wala tahmil AAalayna isrankama hamaltahu AAala allatheena minqablina rabbana wala tuhammilnama la taqata lana bihi waoAAfuAAanna waighfir lana wairhamnaanta mawlana faonsurna AAalaalqawmi alkafireena
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

Therefore, a person in a wheel chair will be asked to do what he/she can.

Despite the above, The God gives very specific exceptions in the case of the less important "sawm" and "7ajj". Why does He give no license for the even more important "sala"? I don't think that it is a coincidence.

Again, If you see "sujud" primary meaning as physical, it is fine, just obey The God and do your "sujud" to the chin and NOT the forehead. Othersiwe, please tell us what is your source for "sujud" being to the forehead?

According to "Qamus Muheet" one of the meanings of the root (SJD) and it's derivatives is "To tilt the head down" . The lowest point that you can tilt your head down to is "Till your chin stops" which is when the chin touches the chest. I explained this in an earlier post.

But that is not how you do your "sujud". Do you do your "sujud" by having your head fall to your chest? (i.e. like nodding "yes")

Again, you have to obey what you understand the verse is asking you to do, which is clearly not the traditional so-called "sujud".

You didn't answer my question. WHERE DID YOU GET THE SUJUD TO THE FOREHEAD FROM?

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman

hlatif

Salam Brother Ayman,

I hope that this note finds well. This will probably be my last post on the subject and therefore, I will address some of your points. Then I will present our agreements and disagreements. Then, I will present my own personal view of Salat.

There is another verse that says "li Allah yasjud ma fi al-samawat wa ma fi al-ard". The verb yasjud is in the CONTINUOUS present tense.

I agree that here, Sujud definitely means submission. I also agree that the meaning that unifies all the mentions of Sujood in the Qur'an is Submission. However, I also believe that there is physical Sujood as well that is menioned in many Ayat. This physical Sujood is not mutually exclusive of the mental/psychological Sujood. That is all.

Despite the above, The God gives very specific exceptions in the case of the less important "sawm" and "7ajj". Why does He give no license for the even more important "sala"? I don't think that it is a coincidence.

That is because, in the case of "Sawm and Hajj" GOD gives people a license not to perform them. In the case of Salat, GOD DOES NOT give a license not to perform Salat. GOD gives a license to perform Salat according to our physical abilities. This is a big difference.

But that is not how you do your "sujud". Do you do your "sujud" by having your head fall to your chest? (i.e. like nodding "yes")

This is how I undesrtand "Yakhirroon lilathkan Sujjadan" now. "Tilting head downard like a very shy/very embarrassed/somebody in presence of a much higher authority". Again, this understanding does not necessarily exclude that Sujood in other Ayat is touching your forehead on the floor.

WHERE DID YOU GET THE SUJUD TO THE FOREHEAD FROM?

This is what I understood from reading "Qamus Muheet"

Meanings for SJD and derivatives Submission, Putting something against something (as in head against a wall or ground), Tilting the head downward, bowing down. Basically it means psychological/mental submission in addition to any physical signs of Submission (whatever they are.
A Very Interesting word that I discovered is MASJAD which means FORHEAD. This word is not to be confused with MASJID which means a place where people perform Sujood. Both words share the plural MASAJID.

So putting your forehead(Masjad) against the ground is consistent with Sujood so are the other movements and so does the mental/psychological Sujood.

NEXT
I think that we agree on the fact that Prayer is a personal business between the person and his/her GOD, and we agree on the importance of the psychological/mental submission.

I sense that we disagree in the fact that you do not believe in the physical Sujood (please forgive me if I am assuming incorrectly). While I believe that there is physical Sujood (whatever it means to the person). Despite your very well thought points, I am not yet convinced that there is not a physical Sujood.

Last HOW I VIEW SALAT (My personal view)

1- It is a personal time between the Servant and His/her GOD. It is up to the person to optimize this contact. The language that is used should the clearest to the person that does the praying (therefore not necessarily ARABIC). I believe that GOD did not leave specific instructions on how to perform SALAT for a reason.

2- Number of SALATS The Qur'an does not give a maximuam number of SALATS. The minimum should probably be at least two. The more that you can do the better, as long as it does not take you away from your obligations to yourself, your family, and your society.

3- I believe in some physical aspect to SALAT based on my own understanding of 243, and 4102. This may include "Rukou" "bowing down" and Sujood "any sign of submission to GOD whether it is touching the forehead on the ground or any other sign is up to the person's understanding". Both movements should complement our feeling of submission to GOD. I do believe that PHYSICAL SALAT can augment our spiritual SALAT if done properly (very much like YOGA or meditation, MAY GOD forgive me for using this analogy)

At the end, THANK you brother for this stmulating discussion. I have learnt a lot through it and MAY GOD be with you.

SALAM

Hussein

unknownuser

Salaams Hlatif,

A very interesting word you have managed to discover!
could you ,for the benefit of us ,point out where you managed to find this

You said

"A Very Interesting word that I discovered is MASJAD which means FORHEAD. "

I meant which lxicon or dictionary or what ever Thanks.

Bye.

hlatif

salam brother mz357

It is in "Qamus Muheet" volume 1 page 415. This is an Arabic/Arabic dictionary written by Fairoozabadi.

hussein

Olusanya

As'Salaam Alaikum,

I am new to the list and I am not as versed in Arabic as it seems many members of the list are, but I am not new to Islam or ritual.
It is my understanding that ritual is simply the act of "consciously" inviting the Sacred into one's life, this can be done in many ways. One may read the Qur'an on a daily basis, deriving all kinds of intellectual conclusions as to what it says and yet never actively allow the wisdom contained therein to become a part of one's daily life, via their conduct towards themselves and others. If someone feels a need to consciously engage their mind and body in a way that reinforces their understanding of Allah's system and order within their being I think that they should do so, if someone feels that this is not necessary then they should refrain from it.
According to the interpretations and points I have seen neither view can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, so each individual should follow the understanding that Allah has bestowed upon them, in their proportion.
There are those who remember Allah by simply being mindful of their breath as they recite the Qur'an, some who feel a need to engage the mind and body in a concerted effort, some who only read the signs in the Qur'an, while others read the signs that are prevalent throughout Allah's creation. Who is to say who is right? Again, if we use the Qur'an as our guide it is obvious to me that there have been valid points made by many and all of them using the Qur'an as the basis of their viewpoint.
If an individual feels the need to bow and prostrate in order to keep Allah foremost in their mind, then it cannot be referred to as useless ritual. It is useful to those who feel a need to do so, we cannot dismiss them or deny them their approach. If an individual does not feel a need for this type of physical observance then we cannot force them to do so.
Let us be careful that we do not become so attached to our intellects that we refuse to acknowledge the understanding Allah has placed in the hearts of our brothers and sisters so that they remember Hu, as Hu remembers them.

Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Olusanya,

Yes, the traditional ritual of (2,4,4,3,4) has been proven incorrect, WAY beyond the shadow of a doubt.

You mentioned that one should bring the spiritual into the physical, yes, but the physical is not putting your face in the ground, the physical is putting your hand in your pocket and giving to the poor, physically speaking out against corruption, physically taking car eof orphans, actions of PURPOSE. Even Qi Gong (movements designed to circulate your "chi/kundalina/ra/ruh" around the body are more beneficial than this dead ritual of "salaat" given by the "islamic scholars".

I was taught that same thing we were all taught, but its time for us to wake up and stand straight.

Olusanya

Peace be upon you Olusanya,

Yes, the traditional ritual of (2,4,4,3,4) has been proven incorrect, WAY beyond the shadow of a doubt.

You mentioned that one should bring the spiritual into the physical, yes, but the physical is not putting your face in the ground, the physical is putting your hand in your pocket and giving to the poor, physically speaking out against corruption, physically taking car eof orphans, actions of PURPOSE. Even Qi Gong (movements designed to circulate your "chi/kundalina/ra/ruh" around the body are more beneficial than this dead ritual of "salaat" given by the "islamic scholars".

I was taught that same thing we were all taught, but its time for us to wake up and stand straight.

As'Salaam Idolfree1,

They are both "physical" acts, and it is the niyat/intention that gives both of them their purpose. Kerry spoke out against the corruption of Bush, and yet Kerry is also a corrupt individual. Does his speaking out count? Bush has American airplanes drop bombs one day and boxes of food another day. Is that zakat?
I do not pray 5 times a day, but whenever I do I stand, bow , and prostrate... practicing mindfulness of my breath as I recite the Qur'an and it has very much the effect of a Qi Gong moving meditation, uniting my mind and body in the remembrance of Allah. I also practice Tai Chi, Yoga, and Pilates. They all help me to keep my physical composition healthy, united with my mind and better able to be of service to Allah's creation.
I cannot tell you that you should do these things because I cannot know what is in your heart or mind. Allah does, so Hu will guide you according to your proportion and as your brother I will support you in your growth and development, as long as you are not causing harm to Allah's creation.

Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya