"No Rituals"? What about 5:6?
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We often go in circular talks....
Like this -
Person x In the Koran, God says to do salat. (Referring to the verses...)
Me can you point to where God said salat=standing, bowing, prostrating, sitting to be done a specific time, a specific way.
Person x you don't have to pray a specific way. number doesn't matter as long as there is some component of standing, bowing, prostrating, sitting.
Me ok but where in the Koran does God say salat=standing, bowing, prostrating and what to say in the various positions?this is where the hadith followers say see, this is why you need hadiths and the problem with these quranists. Salat unifies the umma.
Me when is salat supposed to be done? How many times in a day?
Person x 2 times giving an explanation as to why.
Person y 3 times giving her rationale based on analysis of the Koran
Person z 5 times giving his reasoning referring to the verses in the Koran.Again, this is where the hadith followers say see this is why you need hadiths and the quranists are a confused bunch. Salat unifies the umma.
Me again, where in the Koran does God define salat=standing, bowing, prostrating.
Person x Koran mentions prostrating, bowing. (Referring to various verses)
Me but where does God define salat=standing, bowing, prostrating?
Person x it is understood as people had been doing it. If you read the Koran, you would know. This is the problem with Muslims. They just discard previous scriptures. God taught salat to Abraham, Moses...Me God did that. But where is the evidence?
Person x <refers to once again the verses in the Koran where salat is mentioned>And we go back to the beginning of the circular talk.
Me ok...I know that Jews had been doing ritual worship before Muhammed came along. But can you refer me to where God defined and taught salat=standing, bowing, prostrating?
Person x God didn't define but there are many other things that God didn't not define.Me ok let's say salat=standing, bowing, prostrating to be done at certain number of times in a day.
1). How can you do salat while riding on back of horse or on foot? Verse 2238
2). Help me to understand how salat could have been done as in Verse 4101-102?Me those who say number don't matter to God. It is the content. Then please explain verse 4101-104 where God says not a sin or wrong to SHORTEN salat. This means generally, salat is to be of a certain length. Right?
Well.....i would be surprised if i get straight answers. we will just go around and around in circular talk. This is how things go and not unique here. Ask the priest question about the bible where Jesus is referred as 'son of man' - response would not be much different. It is all the same in every religion. Questioning and asking commonly held beliefs and understanding leads to the same kind of reaction. Challenging such beliefs is met with defense and offense. People get killed. Ego, arrogance, fear, ignorance often come in play.... That's just the way it goes. Understand this all too well.
My focus and my goal is to understand what God said about salat, wudu. For the past 20 some years, a lot of my beliefs and understanding had been influenced heavily by extra-quranic sources.
To say "God said this" is one way of going to hell. Did God say salat=physical worship and to physically wash body parts BEFORE salat is my question. The verses in the Quran 56, 4101-104, 2237-238 and various others confuse and trouble me, as I have shared my thoughts and difficulties else where.
I am familiar with the Jewish ritual of praying. By the way, those who are interested there is a really nice book To Pray As a Jew - A guide to the prayer book and the synagogue service by Hayim Donin.
Now, my question is did the Rabbis invent this ritual worship or was it in the Torah? We know that rabbinical laws are sewn with innovations. From reading al baqarah, i know what God said about the people of the book. God had more than harsh words to say. Just reading the words, could feel the anger! The language of the hadiths is so much similar to the talmud that it had made me wonder. I have the bible but have not read the Torah (mainly due to time constraints) but that is my next step in my search for the truth.
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Justamuslim, this is a religious discussion. Of course all argumentation will be circular because the source of the benchmarks of truth rests upon the SUBJECTIVE reasoning of the person. Only the deluded will think they own the truth and are speaking for the Quran. Even what people term as 'evidence' is subjective. All we can do really is test and apply.
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Hi Justamuslim,
One thing that Judaism has is the idea of "Tradition". There is one way to do it. It is not in the Torah. Some of it derives from the Torah but most does not derive from the Torah. Cleaning before prayer.... Jews have the Mikvah. Orthodox women must go to the Mikvah after their menses in order to no longer be ritually impure. People before they went to give offerings at the temple were required to go the Mikvah before approaching the Temple.
Wikipedia has a good description on when people should go to a Mikvah historically
Traditionally, the mikveh was used by both men and women to regain ritual purity after various events, according to regulations laid down in the Torah and in classical rabbinical literature. The Torah requires full immersion
• after Keri ? normal emissions of semen, whether from sexual activity, or from nocturnal emission; bathing in a mikveh due to Keri is known as tevilath Ezra (?the immersion of Ezra?);
• after Zav/Zavah ? abnormal discharges of body fluids;
• after Tzaraath ? certain skin condition(s). These are termed lepra in the Septuagint, and therefore traditionally translated into English as leprosy; this is probably a translation error, as the Greek term lepra mostly refers to psoriasis, and the Greek term for leprosy was elephas/elephantiasis.
• by anyone who came into contact with someone suffering from Zav/Zavah, or into contact with someone still in Niddah (normal menstruation), or who comes into contact with articles that have been used or sat upon by such persons.
• by Jewish priests when they are being consecrated;
• by the Jewish high priest on Yom Kippur, after sending away the goat to Azazel, and by the man who leads away the goat;
• by the Jewish priest who performed the Red Heifer ritual;
• after contact with a corpse or grave, in addition to having the ashes of the Red Heifer ritual sprinkled upon them;
• after eating meat from an animal that died naturally
Go to the Wikipedia website for "Mikveh" for more information.
However you can see there were times that people had to become ritually pure. Many were associated with general cleanliness and others with ritual cleanliness. To me it is clear from the Quran that Allah wants us to be clean before prayer. This is just my opinion.
How to pray exactly? I think that is up to you and Allah. So long as your intention is in the right place you will do what you think is best. Allah will understand that your intentions are right.
If you have the bible you have to Torah. Its just the first 5 books of the bible. Read away. You will find so many similarities it is uncanny. This is why I think the two religions are the same. Just one is more refined than the other.
As a side note... One thing I find frustrating with Judaism is that is not very spiritual. There is a group called Kabbalists who are similar to Sufis. In fact I think they shared ideas. Other than that... for spiritual guidance it is very difficult to find. Whereas the Quran gives spiritual guidance. It speaks to me in a way and with a tone very very different from the Torah. Its the same message though.
Hope my crazy thoughts might help or at least not hurt.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Salaam,
I agree with JewishDude, the Torah is definitely worth reading, even if you can ponder about whether or not everything in it is true. This holy scripture became tainted over centuries, but the main point is still valid.
JewishDude says that they are all the same religion and that is also true. Judaism, Christianity and Islam is exactly the same religion, we worship the exact same God, but yet there is such a grave diversion among the people.
The people of the various sects just drifted apart when it comes to the rituals and the belief systems... and sometimes also pagan belief entered the religion sadly enough. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are just various sects of the original religion of Abraham. Then Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Catholics, Protestants etc etc, are further subdivisions of the original religion which was taught to Abraham a few millenia ago.
The message has been the same all along. Worship God alone, believe in a life after death and be a righteous person. God never wanted to make things complicated for us, but He let us have an opponent called Satan to test us to make sure impure souls would not reach Heaven.
Worshiping God can be done in many ways, giving the alms is a sort of worship, thinking about God's miracles is another, being amazed over the fantastic world we live in. And on the other hand, going down on our knees crossing our hands in adoration with some beautiful words of prayer is also showing respect and belief in the Lord. Also, I do see nothing wrong in the traditional prostration with the head to the ground which is also described in the Bible/Torah. You do not commit any evil by any of these rituals as long as they are devoted to the Maker alone.
Do not be frightened by what people say is right or wrong, as long as everything you do is dedicated to the One who created you. Physical movements in addition to praying in the mind shows more action and seriousness in the actual worship, and hence the ancient prostation may not be a faulty invention by pagans only.
Once again back to what is written in and that one should wash him/herself hints at obtaining purity before acts of worship. If you just worship God in your mind there is no rational reason to do , at least not in my opinion. Remember, even in the Bible washing yourself is told about, although not in the same purpose as , but it seems to be before entering someone's house, but could also be meant before a ritual situation.
Another thought, why was Moses told to take off his sandals before entering the valley of Tuwa? Certain rituals have always been prescribed by God.
God will guide each one of us on the right path as long as we keep an open mind and we are not simply trying to be arrogant about ancient rituals which there are few writings on parchments about. Some people choose to show their adoration and love for God by the prostration.
However, in fact the prostration was not only done to God originally, it was someting you did in respect of persons of high rank in old times. People may have stopped doing that because they did not want to show people as much respect as God Himself, hence just doing the prostration to God in the prayer ritual.
We must always keep in mind that we need to interpret the holy scriptures as of today, and thus we can ponder if it is mandatory to perform sujud as it was done in ancient times.
There is absolutely no doubt that people worshiped God by prostration in ancient times, because mankind did that even to humans as a respectful move. The question is if it is appropriate to do so in these modern times when this kind of move has been replaced by simple handshakes and polite nods with the heads etc.
In my humble opinion, I still perform sujud as part of my worship of God because I feel that it gives that little extra that I love God and that I originate from Him. I am not 100% accurate with the direction to the black box in Mecca because that is not utterly important, it may just have been a reminder of ancient times. There is nothing magical about the prostration, it is just a respectful greeting and some beautiful words that I utter while I am doing it, i.e. Sura 1 in the Quran, plus that I also have some custom words I say that change from time to time. And I also speak freely to God about any issue that I may have.
I see God as a living entity, just like an individual, but of course the Most High and Almighty and I do not hesistate to speak to Him and both complain and praise Him because He will listen. We are allowed to show our grief to God and He will listen. The problems incurred upon us may be part of His test, but if we show our sadness to Him He will be more merciful and may even remove the affliction, because we acknowledged Him and implored him sincerely about it and confessed He is the only One who can do anything about it, or at least do it best.
I hope the things that I wrote were useful to some of you, while to some people it was not. I try to radiate my faithful mind to those who listen and believe. hints at the existence of rituals and the various rituals you see today are remainders of ancient times and are not inventions. God is not as harsh as that He will not accept custom versions of rituals as long as they are dedicated to Him alone, but the best way is to gather up as a community and do a uniform prayer for Him so that we show that we have loveful people that can work together as a unit and not only being lonewolves. I doubt God loves those who cannot compromise and just want to walk their way.
May God bless you and let you see the light
or
May the Force be with You
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bravoGood post, Man of Faith.
One more point worth noting
And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers . Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times . (4103)
CONVEY whatever of this divine writ has been revealed unto thee, and be constant in prayer for, behold, prayer restrains from loathsome deeds and from all that runs counter to reason; and remembrance of God is indeed the greatest . And God knows all that you do. (2945)
And when the prayer is ended, disperse freely on earth and seek to obtain of God's bounty; but remember God often, so that you might attain to a happy state! (6210)
Some people think that they can remember God/talk to God whenever they want, so no need of any ritual. But the above verses clearly demonstrates that there is a difference between 'remembering God at specific times = prayer' and 'remembering God at any time'.
The following verses suggests/hints that there is a general form to prayer
2238 Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
This is why I tell everyone to stick to the form of standing, bowing and prostrating.
Peace.
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bravoGood post, Man of Faith.
One more point worth noting
And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers . Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times . (4103)
CONVEY whatever of this divine writ has been revealed unto thee, and be constant in prayer for, behold, prayer restrains from loathsome deeds and from all that runs counter to reason; and remembrance of God is indeed the greatest . And God knows all that you do. (2945)
And when the prayer is ended, disperse freely on earth and seek to obtain of God's bounty; but remember God often, so that you might attain to a happy state! (6210)
Some people think that they can remember God/talk to God whenever they want, so no need of any ritual. But the above verses clearly demonstrates that there is a difference between 'remembering God at specific times = prayer' and 'remembering God at any time'.
The following verses suggests/hints that there is a general form to prayer
2238 Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
This is why I tell everyone to stick to the form of standing, bowing and prostrating.
Peace.
Very Good
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Hi Everyone,
I also think there is some value in having specific times of day for prayer. It requires you to be mindful of your time and makes you stop to pray. It is a way of putting prayer into your day and to orient your day around prayer. And then hopefully you will orient your day around Allah. Same thing with dietary restrictions. It makes you think about Allah every time you eat. These rituals have an impact on our days. However specifying exactly how to pray or the number of prostrations, etc. may be going a little too far.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
peace Scribbler, all,
bravoGood post, Man of Faith.
One more point worth noting
And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers . Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times . (4103)
CONVEY whatever of this divine writ has been revealed unto thee, and be constant in prayer for, behold, prayer restrains from loathsome deeds and from all that runs counter to reason; and remembrance of God is indeed the greatest . And God knows all that you do. (2945)
And when the prayer is ended, disperse freely on earth and seek to obtain of God's bounty; but remember God often, so that you might attain to a happy state! (6210)
Some people think that they can remember God/talk to God whenever they want, so no need of any ritual. But the above verses clearly demonstrates that there is a difference between 'remembering God at specific times = prayer' and 'remembering God at any time'.
From my readings, I have never read anyone put forth a credible argument explaining away the finite/timed aspect of salat, i.e. some verses do suggest a finite/timed component, but they fail to explain it away. So you're right here.
The following verses suggests/hints that there is a general form to prayer
2238 Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
This is why I tell everyone to stick to the form of standing, bowing and prostrating.
More correctly
The word "qumu" in 2238 commonly translated as "stand" (as in a physical standing) can also mean a figurative "stand" in Quran, e.g. "stand" for justice.
The better deduction from the above verses is the preference is being stationary, not necessarily standing.
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Peace everyone,
Rather one performs the rituals or not, fast or not, it all comes down to intentions
we can explain our points of view but our viewpoints start with our intentions
Folks who try to find reasons based in Quran for not doing wudu, salat, or fast simply
cannot bring themselves to say " I don't like making salat" or "I don't want to make
wudu" or "I don't like being hungry" hiding behind their true intentions. Please do not
be offended, but in such discussions all points of view should be welcome.THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD
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Peace hawkninetynine and everyone else,
Considering the basic criteria to "reach Heaven" is
- Believe in God
- Believe in the Herafter
- Be a righteous person
I hence believe you may be "forgiven" if you fulfill criteria 1 and 2 plus focus heavily on criteria 3 by doing all that is considering righteous in the Quran and abstaining from unrighteous things. If you offer lots of your life to others in terms of services, i.e preach the message, give alms, being helpful, and thinking a lot about God and the spiritual life, and follow overall tips in the Quran about righteousness, you may as well be able to offer prayers in custom ways as long as you have the right intention and still be able to enjoy Heaven at the end of days.
Of course, if you as a community, get together and agree on a uniform prayer and offer that to God alone as a group, I doubt that will hurt, but rather benefit you, since you had an easier time cooperating with other living beings. I have understood God likes when people can work together to achieve goals. Of course this is a huge trial for us with our big egos and we want to have it our way many times, not everyone, but a lot of us, until we either change or it is too late for that.
I have a feeling this is the traditional misinterpretation of the verses talking about Qiblah and the prayers and so on. God wants us to be a brotherhood/sisterhood of friends and love each other much like Jesus is being presented in the Gospel for example.
The Quran teaches us that much of the worship can be done by singing praises for the Lord and you can do that together as a group as well and it is encouraged, and can be a sort of prayer, much like Christians do.
The true big issue is when you start associating partners with God or challenging His absolute authority by adding people like Jesus, Muhammad, Ali, etc, in our glorification of Him and lifting them to rank with God or anywhere close, giving them God-like powers or prayer time when they are no more than ordinary human beings. God alone should suffice, no need to praise the prophets for a service God provided to begin with. No human messenger would never had even wanted (or dared) wanting to be commemorated as a lord or mini-boss. The messengers perform their marvels by the holy spirit and that can be the same as saying God had them under "alien control" (if you are like me and UFO game nerd). Sure messengership is a wonderful and honorable thing, but they would encourage everyone to follow the Lord alone.
After all, God gave the before-mentioned as basic conditions, and except the God believing stuff, being righteous is the only required parameter. And that will come automatically by believing and trusting in Him and following only His teachings or those of recognized authority around you that do not encourage idolatry and sins. Recognize means you use your common senses, like brain, eyes and ears which God provided humans with to be used wisely. Copying behavior without thinking is the usual mistake, but on the other hand, following a righteous leader (like people did with Muhammad), is nothing wrong, the reverent will disobey him/her in case the leader would walk astray. Religious leaders may thus be entirely okay, no problems, it is a hot topic, but truly we should not be afraid of that, just not follow ideas that are man-made and idolatrous in nature and giving illegal restrictions and hence never authorized by God.
A religious leader (or rather a person preaching the message=messenger) should only want to inspire people to follow God alone and never ask for any gratification, wage or fame, and be rather humble and undemanding when it comes to that, and even being a bit withdrawn. I think it takes special persons to be leaders to be followed, and they should only be followed to gain inspiration and unity among believers. It is hard to define a righteous leader without being afraid of idol worship, is it not?
Of course, someone would automatically follow a leader who were exposed to a religious phenomenon proving a good connection to God such as in the case of Muhammad and previous messengers. But we may also keep our eyes open for those who truly want to inspire people on the righteous path and at the same time asking for little in return.
But people here, for example, are right. We should first of all seek the Lord and trust in Him and seek a connection to Him alone without someone acting as a middle hand, but nothing forbids us from being put on a straight path and inspired by a messenger who in return is filled with the Holy Spirit and doing many righteous things, as long as he makes you sing, pray and become more generous and giving, in the way of God.
What I just wrote is, like much of the Quran, just a recommendation and your own way is sufficiently fine as long as you yourself consider it righteousness (and enshallah God does) and you follow the Quran with your true heart, your true intention will surely be enough or God will otherwise correct your errors in time, as long as you persevere and remain steadfast and worship Him devoutly, even during times of difficult trials.
You shall thank God for living, even if you lie down shaking on a bed in pain with muscle spasms (but of course you can complain about it or show grief for God is testing you, but that you will contact Him alone and beg for Him to relieve the pain you are in).
Trust me, what I mentioned above has actually happened to me and I was in great pain for weeks in this and it was difficult to remain steadfast and not doubting God, but I managed to remain on God's side throughout this trial, even if it was one of the biggest trials in my life. And now I was entirely honest with you, this is a true story. Anyway, God removed my affliction after a painful period and I have been exposed to some other lesser intense but life-long hard trials since that.
Now the intent with this is not for you to feel pity for me at all, I want to show how strong the Faith of a believer should be. If you are exposed to the above test and only become stronger in Faith after that, God will surely never expose you to such trials again (enshallah), you will only grow in received blessings and prosper in life.
Of course you never know when God decides to put on that hammer again... hmm
Sorry, for those patient enough to read this far on my post, that I rambled on for this long. May God grant you great patience rotfl
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Peace Man of Faith,
Rituals are "food" for the soul, and like a proper diet, can help us to be more
"spiritually" healthy.Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts;
anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a
righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear,
nor will they grieve.Peace
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Thank you. You also backed me up with the appropriate Quranic verse from where I got my knowledge. I often know things but I forget numbers rotfl
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When going through tough times, I know it is not easy to be very spiritual and Godly, but I think it largely depends on what sorts of conditions we have on our relationship with God. If we have lots of conditions, then we may start wondering what's wrong or whether God is actually merciful etc etc. But, if we take God as the matter of fact foundation of reality, without inserting our own conditions, then it would be easier to "have" God in all sorts of circumstances. Just an idea I had...
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Peace zulf,
Talking from my own experience, while on that bed it felt like I was exposed to torture, it is difficult not losing hope and fall victim to the whispers of Satan, who was probably cheering that I would lose my fight, or even causing the trouble elektro rotfl
But I am sure you are right, zulf, if I would be exposed to the same thing now as of today I would not (enshallah) lose an inch of faith, even if it would be double the pain as the last time. It is your faith status which determine how steadfast you are. Surviving one disaster and receiving a reward and blessings for the steadfastness, will increase the chances you will endure without giving in the next time, if you are truly faithful pr
hmm You probably mean if we expect too much from God? Easiest for ourselves is if we never expect anything, I mean, we can be blessed with provisions, then suddenly everything is removed from us, as a part of an upcoming new trial and we humbly accept these new living conditions, but of course imploring God that He will be merciful with His new test hail
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I wasn't talking about what we expect from God... rather I was talking about our conceptual conditions on God... that is, our image of God. For example, there are many people who reason like this "Religion claim God is merciful and all-knowing and all-powerful, but since there are injustices and misery in the world, Religion must be wrong and hence God doesn't exist."
Imagine a person who claims to be religious, but never really had any major problems in life. Life always tended to be a bit dull, safe and ordinary... until a major personal disaster struck. This person now starts questioning the existance of God just because this disaster doesn't fit with his previous beige, moderate and feel-good version of faith in God. This Mr Applepie had conditions on God which made his entire faith shake, and perhaps crumbel, when things really got tough. This weakness in conviction depended entirely on his world view, his image of God and in other world his own limitations. God is God, reality is reality... so why did his faith change? Well, perhaps it wasn't very genuine with a strong foundation in reality. Hope this made it a little more clear.God is God. If we go up and down in faith... depends on us and not on God.
Cheers!
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Salaam zulf,
Alright, I know what you mean now. It sounds like the average human brickwall
God bless you
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I wasn't talking about what we expect from God... rather I was talking about our conceptual conditions on God... that is, our image of God. For example, there are many people who reason like this "Religion claim God is merciful and all-knowing and all-powerful, but since there are injustices and misery in the world, Religion must be wrong and hence God doesn't exist."
Imagine a person who claims to be religious, but never really had any major problems in life. Life always tended to be a bit dull, safe and ordinary... until a major personal disaster struck. This person now starts questioning the existance of God just because this disaster doesn't fit with his previous beige, moderate and feel-good version of faith in God. This Mr Applepie had conditions on God which made his entire faith shake, and perhaps crumbel, when things really got tough. This weakness in conviction depended entirely on his world view, his image of God and in other world his own limitations. God is God, reality is reality... so why did his faith change? Well, perhaps it wasn't very genuine with a strong foundation in reality. Hope this made it a little more clear.God is God. If we go up and down in faith... depends on us and not on God.
Cheers!
Here is described this man
And there is a man with conceptual understanding and psyche amongst human beings he owes and professes allegiance to Allah the Exalted in a state of mind upon a verge.
Thereat, if pleasantness has become his fortune, he contented himself with such allegiance.
And in case an irritating and unpleasant situation afflicted him; he about-faced.
He has thus caused to himself the loss in this World and the Hereafter.
This sort of about-facing is what the manifest loss is truly. -
Salaam Mazhar,
That was right on spot!
It was the verse which explain this conditional worship of the Almighty.
God bless you for complementing our talk and backing it up from the Quran.
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Salamun alaika,
Perhaps each person is described in Qur'aan under sub-classifications with reference to psyche and conduct.
Know the certain fact that We have sent towards you people the Book Grand Qur'aan .
The peculiarity of this Book is that the mention psyche, inner nature and conduct of you people is detailed therein.
Would you still, after finding yourself mentioned therein, not reflect rationally?
