Proof that Qibla is the Kaabah in Mecca

abdalquran

Wow, so they're disagreeing with THE QURAN now as opposed to YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Quran. You'll fit in very well with some people here, for sure.

I think it's just your interpretation. You neglected to look at these problems

48/24 , it's 'bi bathni makkah' (or WITH belly of 'makkah&#039 rather than fee/in
Even Muhammad was in makkah, he couldn't move elsewhere? Hajj is nowhere mentioned in that context. If Makkah is the place of masjid al-haram, how come he was in BELLY of makkah in 48/24 and ENTERING masjid-haram in 48/27.
Makkah isn't mentioned in 2/142-152, neither is Jerusalem as a matter of fact.

Lets not be so sure of ourselves, bro. I respect your interpretation but please don't call me a disbeliever for disagreeing with you )

Babansif

God talks about fighting disbelievers in Mekka who did not let them enter masjid al haram in mekka, and that they would have taken the town with force if it would have not been for the believers wich live there.
That means that the masjid al haram must be in mekka

abdalquran

Sorry, there's no masjid al-haram IN Makkah there. Even if 48/24 means 'in' (which it says 'with&#039, then that's a different situation than 48/27. He ENTERS masjid al-haram there after the fulfilment of a vision in truth. One in a 'belly' of something doesn't need to enter it again. Sorry bro, it's very hard to push Makkah in there for me (

Babansif

Brother it is pretty clearly, He talks about Muhammed fighting disbelievers in Mekkah and not leting them in to the masjid al haram, and in surah 2 he tells us that kabaah is the masjid al haram. What more proof do you need?

abdalquran

I don't see 'not letting them into masjid al-haram' at all. Can you please point out the phrase?

Babansif

4525
They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the SACRED MOSQUE, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.

abdalquran

and what word did you translate as 'from' please?

Babansif

Brother I have given you clear proofs, now im not going to force you to believe ) You do what you want to do with what I have given you.

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/48/25/default.htm

abdalquran

Sorry brother, what you did was to present me a TRANSLATION. That translation does not fit the text very well. There is no word 'from' (min in Arabic) there at all.

Babansif

Well look at the whole surah from verse 18-25 and then you will se that you have to be ignorant to deny it )

abdalquran

hehe, ok. I'd rather be 'ignorant' than to be imprecise with words. Sorry but still, i wont call you a 'disbeliever' or whatever handshake

GODsubmitter

By the way, who is more important, Abraham or Muhammad?

If the true monotheist was Abraham, and all of the Qur'an is confirming him as a real and true submitter and friend of God, then it is much more important what and where he'd built, than anyone else, and some tradition even tried to somehow tie Abraham with Mecca, which you now just showed is not correct...

noshirk

Let me give you some pieces of Quranic info which confirm that the Kaaba is in fact in Mecca and that the Kaaba is the masjid al-haram, and that Muhammad lived in Mecca

1- First we acknowledge that the first house which was built for God was in Baca and was built by Abraham. I accept that Baka is NOT Mecca, God does not do spelling mistakes. What this means is that the house built by Abraham was not the Kaaba, there is no problem with that. But .. and this is a BIG BUT ... this does not mean in any way that Muhammad did not live in Mecca ... there are no Quranic words which connect Muhammad with Baca, Baca is only related to Abraham. In fact, the Quran connects Muhammad with Mecca and the masjid al-haram ....

2- There is no problem either to say that the old Qibla was to Jerusalem, but this was changed with the revelation of the Quran to being the masjid al-haram (2144), and the Quran confirms to us that the masjid al-haram is the Kabaa and that the Kaaba is in Mecca.

Here are the relevant Quranic verses

1- In 4818 God speaks to Muhammad about the believers who swore allegiance to him under the tree ? the narration continues and in verse 24 God speaks about how He withheld the hands of he disbelievers in the valley of Mecca ? God is STILL speaking to Muhammad, this confirms that Muhammad was located in Mecca.

2- The narration continues in the very next verse and God mentions the masjid al-haram, so unless Muhammad was suddenly transported by rocket to land instantly somewhere at or near Jerusalem (which has no basis anywhere in the Quran), then it is obvious that the masjid al-haram is also in Mecca.

3- In 597 we are told very clearly that the Kaaba is the masjid al-haram

God has decreed the Kaaba as the Masjid Al-Haram, to be maintained for the people, and for the Haram Months, and the offerings and the garlands. That is so that you may know that God knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth, and that God is Knowledgeable of all things.

4- 595 and 597 also tells us that the rituals of hajj are observed at the Kaaba (which is the Masjid Al-Haram).

All the above confirms that

1- Muhammad lived in Mecca

2- The Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca

3- The Kaaba is the masjid Al-Haram

4- That Hajj should be observed at the Kaaba/masjid al-haram.

The fact that the first house that Abraham built was not in Mecca and was not the Kaaba, but was in a place called Baka, all that is fine, but none of that changes the 4 points above.

It is very likely that the initial Qibla was indeed somewhere around Jerusalem, and that Abraham never built the Kaaba in Mecca, but it is also true that God changed the Qibla to be the Kaaba in Mecca with the revelation of the Quran (2144), and that our hajj is now to be observed at the Kaaba in Mecca.

Salaam Babansif

let suppose that proove is convincing (wich is not for me).
You should proove first that a city called Mecca existed at the time where Muhammad lived.

We know for example that Yathrib was renamed to Medina
We know also that Egypt was renamed to Misr

What if the actual Mecca was renamed to fit the word Mecca in 48-24 ?

Now, to complete your proof, just find something in history of hamanity talking about a city called Mecca in the Hijaz land.
We can find such a proofs for many historical cities in history that were not even sacred for God.

Peace

abdalquran

I like to interpret with the principle of WAP (Widest Application Possible). To me 48/24 isn't about historical Muhammad but about us as we go on to establish masjid al-haram. 'makkah' here could be a state of dependence upon the current system.

Babansif

Well guys if we talk about names in the Quran that can has been changed since the revelation came to Muhammad and if we argue like that. Well in that point then we can say that about everything and nothing can be authentic, not even the Quran itself. God clearly states that Muhammed is in the valley of Mekka and that he fought disbelievers in the valley of Mekkah who did not let them in to the Masjrid al haram. More proof I cant give you, stop being so arrogant and say things like well in that time mekkah could be this and that. If you gonna come with opinions like that then bring it with proofs and not personal opinions or thinkings. As lons as you cant proov that Mekka was not the name of the city in that time then you have to go that God talks about the masjrid al haram wich is in Mekkah.

AND it can also be a coincidence if you are ignorant that God says in 595-97 that Kaabah is the Qibla and the Secred Mosque, GOD EVEN MENTIONS IT BY NAME, HOW MORE PROOFS DO YOU WANT ?
IF DOME OF THE ROCK WAS OUR QIBLA THEN GOD WOULD NOT HAVE MENTIONED THE KABAAH AS SECRED MOSQUE IN THOSE VERSES INSTEAD OF DOME OF THE ROCK.

I hope it is no hard feelings among us brothers , we all have differend opinions and try to correct each other and if you dont think that the kabaah is the Secred Mosque I respect that.

Salaam brothers )

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

babansif I'm ready to agree with you about Mecca. There simply seems to be too much circumstantial evidence both historically and in the Quran, to change the belief about Mecca and Hajj from tradition would not be correct.

Although it seems history is severely corrupted the Quran s wouldn't lie on or be difficult to understand on such mundane messages. The Arabic spoken today and 1400 years ago could be different enough to cause confusion though.

God would not call the Quran easy to understand if it wasn't. The exact whereabouts of some things isn't utterly important .

As long as God is with me you will hear more from me.

Babansif

Salaam brother
What we can go with now is that Kabaah is our Qibla until it is proven not to be.
BUT it does not change that many hajj rituals have been included in the hadith wich is not Quranic rituals and not authorised by God and that is something I know and accept.
But what many people think is that just beacuse something is named in the hadith it has to be false claimed and not true like Kaabah and so on.
I accept that hadith have rituals not authorised by God, Kabaah was a place where the idol worships worshipped their Gods yes this is true, But God later announced it as our new Qibla and Secred Mosque.

Quran also states clearly that they have changed Qibla since the revelation of the Al Quran, so if the Dome of Rock was the qibla at the jews and christians time then it is impossible to be the todays Qibla since God mentions in the Quran that he changed Qibla for Muhammed and his followers.

For more info about this click here http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/al-salat/salat_pre-requisites/qiblah_old_and38_new_%28P1342%29.html

Salaam )

Man_of_Faith

Salaam banansif,

I understand a lot of stuff is invented and you can barely participate on Hajj due to the idol worship being committed on-site. Since you are not allowed to pray in Mosques where people commit idol worship it is questionable if it is right to go to Mecca and join the crowd there for the pilgrimage. Personally I have had some problems going to pray in Mosques due to this fact, been living in an Islamic Republic.

It is also undeniable that a prayer is a focused act when you devout your mind to God alone, but could perhaps be another than the uniform prayer that traditional Muslims perform today. I have came to the point that I understand that a prayer is absolute concentration and contact with God, but it feels natural to fall down on knees to pray, crossing hands or do something special for God, He is after all your Maker. On the other hand, if the prayer is absolutely devoted to God alone it does not matter if you do the uniform Muslim prayer that is being done today, the prayer we all know about, but it would be pretty courteous to add some custom words to the prayer being offered to God and not just utter some words that have lost their meaning because you say them too often. I mean, if you speak freely to God using custom words, you will feel the connection being more alive, if you know what I mean. And I doubt God's mindset is dull enough to appreciate just repeating the exact same words like a parrot every day, God is the living, the Eternal, I find it illogical to believe He wants a monotone prayer being offered from day to day. Although I doubt God will ever get bored of anything, I think it is more devout to be more mindful of the prayer situation.

To actually get a true meaning out of the prayer is very important. From all the tinkering with the discourse of the Quran, we cannot disregard the fact God has told us to be disciplined and do something at specific times of the day. You cannot deny this fact, I doubt the Arabic interpretation and meaning has become that twisted over 1400 years, even if the interpretation has been adapted to suit the traditional Islamic mindset. God wants us to keep a schedule of extra remembrance of Him at certain times of the day and I doubt we cannot do this without some sort of ritual at least, without losing the focus of a definite prayer.

I mean, thinking about God you do mostly all day, but you have to do something extra at these certain times per day and I doubt just keeping God in mind and not do something physical is enough. I mean, if we want something, do we not have the tendency to cross our hands and hope something? If we truly beg for something to someone do we not do just more than cross our hands?

Qualifying for Heaven is the true purpose of the life we live here on Earth, and we are here because God apparently would not let us into there without some hard work to redeem ourselves from an original sin our ancestors committed and that we are not perfect individuals. Would you accept someone, if you were God, if they just kept you in mind and respected you a little and nothing more plus followed some basic things that a lot of disbelievers already follow without believing in God, considering they had offended you very seriously at some point?

No, of course you would not! You would expect them to come beg on their knees to prove themselves and the context of the Quran hints at that, it is undeniable too. They should beg you to please forgive you and accept the imperfect nature of theirs. At least they should not show such arrogance that the majority of humans do. You cannot do such gross interpretation of the Quran, as to remove all elements of begging for forgiveness without disbelieving in the message of the Quran.

Of course God is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, but the Quran is telling you that He needs to forgive you to permit you to enter Paradise when this time comes. It is undeniable too that you have to work relatively hard to reach this goal and it should be what you spend most of your life trying to reach. Are you too proud to humiliate yourselves to God as to pray on your knees or even dropping your head to the ground? Imagine how enormously much bigger God is that you that you cannot even compare Him with you.

This act of worship seems like the stone age, but is does it ever become outdated?

I trust that my divine inspiration that I get and the message I can understand from the Quran would be so incorrect that I would be doing all wrong. I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide me, and you should too. I even accept the rational parts of the Bible and its message. The Gospel mainly makes sense, the tips on how to be righteous work just fine from all sources. Just ignore the irrelevant that seems to make no sense.

I think pilgrimage could be done to anywhere that makes sense and reinforces your thoughts about God without associating partners with Him, however it seems to be something special about Hajj. To the crowd in the Quran (yes it was directed to the people of that time) this was Mecca/Medina obviously and those whereabouts.

Let us hope we all can purify the religion enough to prove where the real location of Muhammad was, if not Mecca, so that we do not have to argue about direction of pilgrimage or prayer. I do not think the true way to start is to omit parts of the Quran. We should not try to change the religion too much through wishful thinking, just because we want to believe everything traditional Muslims do is wrong. It feels arrogant to think everything is utterly wrong, even if humans are prone to change things to their liking. It highly doubt Muhammad is an invented person and I doubt what is described in the Quran is wrong, thus believing it really happened and that it happened in that region as we normally believe today.

The biggest problem we have is idol worship and it is what we should concentrate on not committing. Adding deifying elements to Jesus in the Gospel is the main change of the story there and the Quran seems to be untouched and therefore we should not change too much on how we perceive things as long as we trust God and that He could keep things intact if we just put our mind to it. Obvious distortions are easily spotted and as long as you believe in God alone, the Hereafter and maintain a righteous life this will be enough for your salvation, even if you continue the rites of a Muslim unless you know better.

Anyway, I devote much of my time praying that God will enlighten me about the understanding of the Quran, because this general confusion disturbs me. I am myself confused, but unless I know better I follow my inspiration. Having rituals seems natural to me and my worship of the Lord. Much is happening religiously to my life and I think things will change soon, perhaps sooner than we think. Some days I wish I would understand the 1400 year old Arabic in the Quran perfectly and also know ancient Greek and Hebrew, and also had untouched versions of the Torah and Gospel. But hey, life cannot be too easy I suppose? Anyway if you persevere and remain steadfast in seeking the Truth God will inform you about it, and you can preach it, if you are worthy. And, if what you know not reaches someone else, you should not be jealous and immediately hearken unto the Message revealed. No one is more worth than the other.

Maybe it is time for another Messenger? I have a feeling something is happening. Maybe messengers after Muhammad came, but they remained unnoticed. I read some about Martin Luther recently and it made me think a little, and also I made some thinking about Rashad Khalifa and his impact on the religion. Could they have failed to been noticed because they failed God's test? I was thinking about this the other day. I heard that Khalifa made some unrighteous claims and Martin Luther still seemed obsessed with Jesus Christ (unless the history records were changed).

Please oh Lord, enlighten us and let us not dwell here without knowing the Truth about the religious practices.

No matter that, I will still forever remain a believer, God has made me completely certain, I am a man of faith, hence my chosen nickname. This does not guarantee that I will pass God's test, but I will try, and we should all do. I have seen too much evidence and signs of God's existence to deny it. I feel spoiled. I am forever thankful.

Sorry that I drifted off-topic and rambled on about my personal experiences, but I hope some of it made any sense to you.

God bless you.

hafeez_kazi

Dear brother Babansif peace be upon you.

I believe that you have got confused with Qiblah, Kaaba, Masjid Al Haram, Mecca Bacca, BELLY of MECCA. Never take for granted any thing that is found on the internet. 99% of the stuff you will find filled with the Hadith.

I will give you some points to ponder and it is your duty to go deep to find out the truth which is buried under the lies of HADITH.

Verily! the first HOUSE appointed for MANKIND was that at Becca, BLESSED, a guidance to ALL people; 396

What you understood from the above verse?

What is a HOUSE?

Open a dictionary and find out what does a HOUSE means any place where human beings or animals live, it may be building, bungalow, tent, etc. or even an open place. What you will not find in the dictionary is a cubic structure with idols inside and being called a HOUSE. The place where idol worship is performed is called Temple, Gurudwara etc. and where believers gather together to praise Allah is called MASJID and like wise we have church, synagogue etc.

SO YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT THE FIRST HOUSE IS A PLACE OF WORSHIP.

The second point is that the first HOUSE was not CONSTRUCTED but WUDIA means PLACED or SET UP. Now think who has placed it or set up the first HOUSE? It is none other than Allah, then who told you that Abraham constructed the first House?

IF it is a First House then where is the second, the third and so on? If I say that the first airport appointed for the Americans was that at NEW YORK, it means there must be other airports in New York and if there are other airports then how to identify the first airport among them. What is the distinguishing sign to identify the first airport. (please think in the context of 1400 years before).

Now here is the clue the first house at BACCA is BLESSED and GUIDANCE for the ENTIRE mankind. (My translation for sign is WARNING)

If you consider KAABA as the FIRST HOUSE, which cannot be a living place, cannot be a BLESSED PLACE and cannot be a PLACE OF GUIDANCE OR WARNING.

NOW BRING PROOF THAT THE FIRST HOUSE IS, CONSTRUCTED , A PLACE OF WORSHIP, A PLACE BLESSED AND A PLACE OF GUIDANCE /WARNING TO THE ENTIRE MANKIND.

The only PLACE BLESSED for MANKIND is the place where ABRAHAM and LOUT ARRIVED after their migration from their home towns.

And We saved him and Lot to a land which We had blessed for all people 2171

IT IS BLESSED FOR MANKIND BUT GUIDANCE FOR ALL MANKIND

THINK WHY IT IS NOT BLESSED FOR ALL MANKIND. THINK WHY IT IS GUIDANCE FOR ALL MANKIND

So the First House is a LIVING/DWELLING place for mankind (where Abraham and Lout landed ) and is blessed by the Lord.

For the time being this is enough for you to ponder, and Insha Allah if time permits then I will post some more points worth pondering.

Thanks.

Babansif