Non-Muslim Source speaks of Muhammad (661 AD)
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This is the earliest non Muslim historical writing I've been able to find about Prophet Muhammad. I copied and pasted this from wikipedia. Thoughts and comments?
Sebeos
Sebeos (Armenian ս was a 7th-century Armenian bishop and historian.The history of Sebeos contains detailed descriptions from the period ofSassanid supremacy in Armenia up to the Islamic conquest in 661. Sebeos' work was published for the first time in 1851 in Constantinople. The history recorded by Sebeos provides an illustration of the history of Armenian people, from the start where he was a witness to the year 661.
Writings
To him has been attributed A History of Heraclius, chronicling events from the end of the fifth century to 661.Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heracliusordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament. Although the Arabs were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God?s command, was revealed to them, and Muhammad taught them to recognize the God ofAbraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable aboutMosaic history. Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father?Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said ?God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you?.Sebeos also wrote the Armenian chronicles around 660 AD. which describes how Muhammad established a community which comprised both Ishmaelites (i.e. Arabs) and Jews based on their common descent from Abraham; the Arabs via Ishmael, and the Jews viaIsaac.
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Wow this is interesting. I would like to read this sometime. I wonder how his writings coincide with the Quran (on Muhammad) and other historical information that may or may not confirm his account of Hercules and others, not just Muhammad.
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This and more can be found in the book
External References to Islam
by Peter Kirby (September 11, 2003)
http//www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.htmlIt is indeed fascinating. There was another topic which mentioned this book.
Richard
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One question that pops into mind is how reliable are these non muslim accounts?
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This is the earliest non Muslim historical writing I've been able to find about Prophet Muhammad. I copied and pasted this from wikipedia. Thoughts and comments?
Sebeos
Peace, what year exactly and who was leader of the Arabs at the time?
http//rbedrosian.com/seb9.htm#30
Chapter 30.
"The venerable Heraclius ended his life in ripe old age. He reigned for 30 years ...
When the sons of Ishmael had arisen and issued from the desert of Sinai, their king Amrh 'Umar] did not accompany them. "
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OK I want to reopen this discussion because I have been doing a lot of research on it. Read the quote from Muhammad again that Sebeos reported. It sure sounds like a LIVING Muhammad was giving this pep talk to his troops before the invasion of Jerusalem. I have also found several historical accounts saying "the Arabs of Muhammad" invaded Palestine. So what was Muhammad doing in Palestine? I thought he was supposed to be fighting the Quraish in Mecca. And how does this tie in to verse 302? Why did God mention the Romans? I thought Muhammad was fighting the Quraish in Mecca? Or was it really the Romans because he was never from Mecca? Could it be that he was from Baca? On the outskirts of Jerusalem? Google "Valley of Baca" if you don't know about it. Any insights would be great. I'm trying to make sense of all this. Peace!
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Salam Bro,
Like you I believed that Muhammad came from the vicinity of Petra in now Jordan, and moved south to Mecca...
however the research and exposition of Brother pazuzu here, and Dr Kamal Salibi works made me change my mind, and that is that Muhammad lived in fact in the Asir region of old Yemen south of Meccah, and in fact moved north, towards Yathrib/Medinah, and maybe later New Jerusalem in what is now called Palestine...
only archaelogical research in south west Arabia will prove or disprove this, but the Saudis are not interested in challenging the status quo, probably in fear that the Israelis will claim their south western parts...
OK I want to reopen this discussion because I have been doing a lot of research on it. Read the quote from Muhammad again that Sebeos reported. It sure sounds like a LIVING Muhammad was giving this pep talk to his troops before the invasion of Jerusalem. I have also found several historical accounts saying "the Arabs of Muhammad" invaded Palestine. So what was Muhammad doing in Palestine? I thought he was supposed to be fighting the Quraish in Mecca. And how does this tie in to verse 302? Why did God mention the Romans? I thought Muhammad was fighting the Quraish in Mecca? Or was it really the Romans because he was never from Mecca? Could it be that he was from Baca? On the outskirts of Jerusalem? Google "Valley of Baca" if you don't know about it. Any insights would be great. I'm trying to make sense of all this. Peace!
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Thank you for this post... This is most interesting and a topic i have been confused over since quranic evidence doesnt lead to Mecca at all. However not finding much luck with history etc...and i still havent discovered where. I had my doubts all along and this has confirmed it. I read chapter 302 and I am convinced now that this is infact the truth. Why would God talk about the Romans if they were not directly impacting the prophet?
One thing that does spring to ming though that perhaps someone can shed some light? Why then is there such elaborate historical accounts of the prophet being in Mecca and also from non mulsim sources about the trade that took place and how meccan pottery was very distinct. There is a whole documentary on this by Joanna Lumley a british TV artist who has decided do a series of documentaries. I will try and find the link. She did one on search for noah's ark which is also quite interesting as it talks about the type of ships used and how they had never seen the type of boat noah built as this was the first of its kind (god helped him with design of course).
Search for Noah's Ark - http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZTIrn5rKpUPlease can you post all related study you have done on the topic of where the prophet actually was? I am bvery interested and would really appreciate it.
Thanks and Peace.
Affy
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Thank you for this post... This is most interesting and a topic i have been confused over since quranic evidence doesnt lead to Mecca at all. However not finding much luck with history etc...and i still havent discovered where. I had my doubts all along and this has confirmed it. I read chapter 302 and I am convinced now that this is infact the truth. Why would God talk about the Romans if they were not directly impacting the prophet?
One thing that does spring to ming though that perhaps someone can shed some light? Why then is there such elaborate historical accounts of the prophet being in Mecca and also from non mulsim sources about the trade that took place and how meccan pottery was very distinct. There is a whole documentary on this by Joanna Lumley a british TV artist who has decided do a series of documentaries. I will try and find the link. She did one on search for noah's ark which is also quite interesting as it talks about the type of ships used and how they had never seen the type of boat noah built as this was the first of its kind (god helped him with design of course).
Search for Noah's Ark - http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZTIrn5rKpUPlease can you post all related study you have done on the topic of where the prophet actually was? I am bvery interested and would really appreciate it.
Thanks and Peace.
Affy
I don't think Muhammad necessarily was in Jerusalem, in fact Muslims won over Jerusalem under the caliphate of Umar bin Khattab. If you read more of Sebeos, he also writes about Umar
When the sons of Ishmael had arisen and issued from the desert of Sinai, their king Amrh 'Umar] did not accompany them. But when had militarily routed both kingdoms, seizing from Egypt to the great Taurus mountain, from the Western Sea to Media and Xuzhastan, they then emerged with the royal army to the natural borders of the holdings of Ishmael. Then the king gave an order to assemble boats and many sailors and to navigate southwardly, going east to Pars, to Sagastan, to Sind, to Srman, to the land of Turan and to Makuran as far as the borders of India. The troops swiftly prepared and implemented the command. They burned every country, taking loot and booty. They then turned and made expeditions on the waves of the sea, and reached their own places.
Muhammad did write a letter to Heraclius, where he did ask Heraclius to leave Jerusalem or convert to Islam, but he denied. Sobeos writes about it
Twelve peoples all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Iranian troops had departed and left the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan to the sons of Ishmael. called to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Testament. Although were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, a merchant, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God's command, was revealed to them, and taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from On High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father, Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said "God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father, Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you."
It was during when Muhammad was alive, but Arabs were not strong enough to attack Heraclius at his that time, so Muhammad didn't attack. Soon after Muhammad died, and also Abu Bakr died after the brief caliphate of 2 years, Umar took the caliphate and expanded his empire. Now, just because Sebeos talks about Muhammad, doesn't mean he saw Muhammad or Muhammad went to Jerusalem, it only means that the message of Muhammad did spread to Jerusalem and that was through the letter sent to Heraclius.
The letters are shown http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State, albeit Wikipedia claims the letters are purported.