Is Zina related to sex ?
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Salaam god1quran1
my actual understanding is this
making zina=defaming someone, accusing him to have commited a crime he didn't committed.OK lets see if this understanding fits with other verses of the Qur'an
244 And those who accuse the independent female (MOHASANAT)s, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.
MOHASANAT is women who have sufficient money to be independant. They don't need to work.
So mohsanat can surmont more easely the prejudice of false accusations. In other hand, it is more difficult to make credible accusation against mohasanat.
Giving 80 lashes to defamer of a mohsanat is, i think, a way to calibrate the punition and to show that defaming is a great sin.I am not sure how this verse is relevant to the topic we are discussing. Can we focus on the the Quranic understanding of Zina. Verse 244 does not contain the word zina or its derivative. The issue here is slander.
Please talk about 242 and 243 and explain your understanding on the basis of these verses.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
Here, we have another attitude to have towards women comminting "lewdness". Explaining the meaning of 415 is another debate. We have only to notice that there is no leashes there.
This is not about adultery but more about prostitution imo. Again there the word zina or its derivative is not used in this verse.
4240 The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
4241 And for any who demand action after being wronged, those are not committing any error.
4242 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.I do not under stand the relevance unfortunately. The topic is adultery that we are discussing.
in quran, we have a sample of adultery accusation in history of Yusuf. There was no leashes on the story.
1227 ?And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful.?
1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said ?This is from your female planning, your female planning is indeed great!?there was not also 4 testimonies. There was a proof that Yusuf was not guilty.
By definition, a defamer has no proofs. So at least 4 testimonies are needed in case of lack of proofs.
OK you have to understand the issue here and it is not Zina. Yusuf is being wrongly accused of sexual assault (meaning there is no consent between the partners) The wording of 1227 and 1228 proves that He is being accused of sexual assault. Adultery is not equal to Sexual assault so again I would argue that the verses you have quoted have no relevance to the issue of Adultery.
1276 So he began with their bags before the bag of his brother. Then he brought it out of the bag of his brother. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the system of the king, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.
Here again we have a sample that with a proof, we don't need 4 testimonies.
Again relevance?? Where does it state in 242 and 243 that you need 4 witnesses to punish the adulterers?
Unfortunately you have not quoted a single verse that contains a word derived from the root word "zy nn y" to support your understanding of the issue.
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Unfortunately you have not quoted a single verse that contains a word derived from the root word "zy nn y" to support your understanding of the issue.
Salaam
you asked me to give my understanding not to discuss it.
i did that already and i gave you an abstracti have not to convince you.
i have not to repeat all what i already said for you.
Peace -
"Simple logic tells me that Arabic as language must have existed before the Quran and the people who the Quran was revealed to must have understood the Arabic of the Quran. Arabic is a language like any other language and it has remained a language also after over 1400 years. It did logically survive even without hadith, why hadith is of importance for the preservation of Arabic at all is beyond me."
So how did Arabic survive?
"So my question is; why is hadith required to understand the passages of the Quran?
Is the Arabic language magically bound to hadith of Muhammad? It sounds pretty absurd to me."
How else do you think Arabic itself is preserved. . . how else is any language preserved? There are no unwritten/written languages that have survived the same way as Arabic has . . . why do you think that is.
"Is not the Quran a pretty easy book to understand as it is? Why add other fallible books (because they were written by men) to understand one perfect book with God's exact wordings? It does not make any sense to me, can you explain? Do you not believe what God dictated to Muhammad via Gibrail?"
One needs to know Arabic to understand the Quran. And knowledge of Arabic is preserved by Hadith.
It is as simple as that.
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"456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which HADITH after God and His revelations do they believe?"
I have answered the same question twice. . . here the Hadith does NOT refer to Hadith Corpus . . . but anything taken as equivalent to the Quran . . . such Guru Granth Sahib . . . a book that gives knowledge of God - and is considered equal in rank to the Quran . . . Hadith are not that.
""Bukhari and Muslim are liars"."
How are they liars? What lie are they charged with? How can one dismiss the charge . . . without know what someone is accused of.
"How your teachers explain you that Muhammad said that end of world will occur 100 years after him ?"
I fail to see your objections to this Hadith . . .
Let me present the translation. . .
The Prophet prayed one of the 'lsha' prayer in his last days and after finishing it with Taslim, he stood up and said, "Do you realize (the importance of) this night? Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight would be living after the completion of one hundred years from this night."
Now if could state your objections . . .
"please pixelrow, teach me science of your teachers"
What does this mean?
After this - you seem to have left something implied . . . if you state it . . .then I will answer.
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"please pixelrow, teach me science of your teachers"
What does this mean?
After this - you seem to have left something implied . . . if you state it . . .then I will answer.
Salaam pixelrow
213 And if they are told ?Believe, as the people have believed,? they say ?Shall we believe like the foolish have believed?? No, they are the foolish but they do not know.
214 And if they come across those who have believed, they say ?We believe,? and when they are alone with their devils they say ?We are with you, we were only mocking.?don't take it bad pixelrow.
From my point of view, you have been astrayed by false arbabs.
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons (ARBABS) besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.Read this about hadiths
26221 Shall I inform you on whom the devils come down?
26222 They come down on every sinful liar.
26223 They claim to listen, but most of them are liars.
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.Always from my point of view, you are now in the state of moshrik but i think however that you are a sincere guy.
read this about shirk
1746 And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur?an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
393 Absolutely, to God is the true system. And those who set up allies besides Him ?We only serve them so that they may bring us closer to God.? God will judge between them in what they dispute. For God does not guide him who is a liar, a rejecter.
3945 And when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice!
4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.2165 And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.
380 Nor does He order you that you take the angels and the prophets as patrons. Would He order you to rejection after you have submitted?
623 Then, their only excuse was to say ?By God, our Lord, we were not polytheists!?
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented abandoned them.
112 ?That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news.?
18110 Say ?I am but a human being like you, being inspired that your god is One god. So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works, and not serve anyone besides his Lord.?
3125 And if you ask them ?Who has created the heavens and the earth?? They will say ?God.? Say ?Praise be to God.? Yet, most of them do not know.
416 Say ?I am no more than a human being like you. It is inspired to me that your god is One god, therefore you shall be upright towards Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to the polytheists.?
4387 And if you asked them who has created them, they would say, ?God.? Why then do they deviate?Peace
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
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Peace,
My point was; do you not think Arabic from this time could have been preserved in any discourse written during that time until today? Why is it restricted only to hadith? It rings a bell that it is illogical reasoning.
Do you think God wrote Quran in a special Arabic that people could not understand without external references, and still call it easy to learn and understand?
Despite "your hadith", obviously traditional understanding is seriously flawed and there are many errors in the interpretation. Ask noshirk about it because he is more well-versed in the Arabic language than me and he is doing research in the area. They used logical deduction to most part and assist it with Arabic dictionaries. Why do they need hadith in their work, can you tell me?
We are obviously not overly interested in Muhammad but God. We serve God and we do try to imitate the life of Muhammad over 1400 years ago based on questionable hearsay. His life can teach us something, but for that the Quran is sufficient, is it not?
In this thread brother noshirk is trying to investigate if there is any flaw in the traditional understanding as we believe God does not give us irrational and illogical rules to live by. If there is no flaw, well then we must rethink our own viewpoint of the issue and see where we are wrong ourselves.
Despite this, I am sure the traditional understanding is wrong almost all the time.
See 434 for example, does it sound rational that God gave a husband right to beat his wife?
God bless you
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"My point was; do you not think Arabic from this time could have been preserved in any discourse written during that time until today? Why is it restricted only to hadith? It rings a bell that it is illogical reasoning."
Because "Hadith" is the methodology Muslim scholars developed to convey and conserve history . . . have you ever read any Arabic books of history, language, science . . . etc?
"Do you think God wrote Quran in a special Arabic that people could not understand without external references, and still call it easy to learn and understand?"
How is it that you learn Arabic? If not by using external sources?
"Despite "your hadith", obviously traditional understanding is seriously flawed and there are many errors in the interpretation. Ask noshirk about it because he is more well-versed in the Arabic language than me and he is doing research in the area.
I find your attitude and ignorance astounding . . . if you are not well versed in this area . . . rather than forming half-baked opinions - why not seek to further your knowledge. . . then you will have a base to form authoritative opinions.
You are NOT qualified to say
"obviously traditional understanding is seriously flawed and there are many errors in the interpretation"
Look clearly you don't know . . . yet you have the arrogance of adding "obviously" - and then say ask someone else?
They used logical deduction to most part and assist it with Arabic dictionaries. Why do they need hadith in their work, can you tell me?"
Proof?
"We are obviously not overly interested in Muhammad but God. We serve God and we do try to imitate the life of Muhammad over 1400 years ago based on questionable hearsay. His life can teach us something, but for that the Quran is sufficient, is it not?"
You talk about yourself . . . I am obviously very interested. After all have you seen God? Have there been many who have seen God? How do we know about Quran? Who gave it?
Yes - Allah is our deity . . . no doubts about it.
What questionable hearsay?
"Despite this, I am sure the traditional understanding is wrong almost all the time."
Which is your stance . . . yet it appears to be nothing more than your opinions - that are not backed up at all. All you have done is state your position - and that is it.
"See 434 for example, does it sound rational that God gave a husband right to beat his wife?"
You can say such things about all verses . . .say in another 100 years . . . there will be even more questions . . . already people deny that there is even a god. And they are EXCELLENT in Logic and Science.
It says what is says . . . and it says a man can beat his wife. Seeking to invent new meaning is dishonest.
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Salaam pixelrow
213 And if they are told ?Believe, as the people have believed,? they say ?Shall we believe like the foolish have believed?? No, they are the foolish but they do not know.
214 And if they come across those who have believed, they say ?We believe,? and when they are alone with their devils they say ?We are with you, we were only mocking.?don't take it bad pixelrow.
From my point of view, you have been astrayed by false arbabs.
931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons (ARBABS) besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.Read this about hadiths
26221 Shall I inform you on whom the devils come down?
26222 They come down on every sinful liar.
26223 They claim to listen, but most of them are liars.
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.Always from my point of view, you are now in the state of moshrik but i think however that you are a sincere guy.
read this about shirk
1746 And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur?an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
393 Absolutely, to God is the true system. And those who set up allies besides Him ?We only serve them so that they may bring us closer to God.? God will judge between them in what they dispute. For God does not guide him who is a liar, a rejecter.
3945 And when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice!
4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.2165 And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.
380 Nor does He order you that you take the angels and the prophets as patrons. Would He order you to rejection after you have submitted?
623 Then, their only excuse was to say ?By God, our Lord, we were not polytheists!?
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented abandoned them.
112 ?That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news.?
18110 Say ?I am but a human being like you, being inspired that your god is One god. So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works, and not serve anyone besides his Lord.?
3125 And if you ask them ?Who has created the heavens and the earth?? They will say ?God.? Say ?Praise be to God.? Yet, most of them do not know.
416 Say ?I am no more than a human being like you. It is inspired to me that your god is One god, therefore you shall be upright towards Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to the polytheists.?
4387 And if you asked them who has created them, they would say, ?God.? Why then do they deviate?Peace
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
I am always amused at such attempts . . . why do you think "preaching" at me is going to make a difference? Who are you comforting? Yourself.
I have seen it many times . . . Muslims will quote Quran passages at Atheists - when they have been out-thought by the Atheists.
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"please pixelrow, teach me science of your teachers"
What does this mean?
After this - you seem to have left something implied . . . if you state it . . .then I will answer.
Well, let's push away the sincere hypothesis.
i am waiting for what you promised. Hope you know that mo'oinin always full fit their promise.
here a remind of where we were
please pixelrow, teach me science of your teachers
how can 96-1 be first verse revealed as it is said in this Sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=3&BookID=24&PID=3
and how can 74-1 be first verse revealed as it is said in this sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=2690&BookID=24&PID=4702how can 4-93 be last verse revealed like it is said in this sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=24&TOCID=2374
and how can 4-176 be last verse revealed like it is said in this sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=24&TOCID=2385
and how can 5-3 be last verse revealed like it is said in this sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=5&BookID=24&PID=43it is just that i am interested in other religions and other ways of thinking.
Just for note, i liked very much your interpretation that Muhammad annouced that living people will die before 100 years. It was very funny.
I would like to have also your opinion about this hadith
http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=187&BookID=24&PID=267
" - 105 -" 265The question is not 11 or 9 but
Question is testimonies were there ? if not, what are the scientific ??? rules applied to classify this hadith as sahih ?
Please note that hadith mention a repeated practice.for whose don't understand arabic i will traduce this Hadith is saying that when Muhammad was old (after death of alleaged Khadija), he was making sex twice a day with all his wifes (11 wifes). According another source, Wifes were just 9 (9 and 11 are both sahih, don't mind ???). Hadith mention also the sexual capacity of Muhammad as equal to 30 men.
Let now study scientific Hadiths
2789 "" - 2150 -
here is the link for this sahih http//hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=25&TOCID=1296
this is a rollys royce of hadith sahih and mutawatir
so genesis according hadiths seems like this
saturday soil/clay earth
sunday mountains
monday trees
tuesday bad things
wednesdaylight
thursday animals
friday Adam after the asr.dear pixelrow.
Do you realize with what bullshits you are mixing words of Allah ?
How can you say that you are faith full with words of Allah while you dip them in the crap and the shit ?
Do you realize that you are making Zina on Allah and his Rassol ?Salaam
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Salaam
you asked me to give my understanding not to discuss it.
i did that already and i gave you an abstracti have not to convince you.
i have not to repeat all what i already said for you.
PeaceThis is a discussion forum and I am not sure why you would want to post your thoughts and then not want to discuss them. The arguments you posted in your last post were new and they provide no support as to why we should consider 'Zina' to mean to defame someone.
You have left out some key verses in your earlier posts and one must consider them to understand the meaning of "Zina" I will try and see if they make sense to you in the next post.
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Can we open a separate thread to discuss Hadith? offtopic
This topic is about Zina.
Thank you
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Can we open a separate thread to discuss Hadith? offtopic
This topic is about Zina.
Thank you
Salaam God1quran1
really, i have already mentionned all my actuals arguments in this thread. I cannot do more to convice you.Concerning Hadiths, i think, from my understanding of Zina, that hadiths are zina on Allah, his words and messengers.
Zina on Allah and his messegers dip people in the dark. We have just to see how muslims countries are.
Zina on humans is a crime on humans and only defamed people suffers.Adultery is not always a crime. In echangists couples for example, in their special and hidden places, there is no one who is suffering.
Adultery cannot even considered as a rupture of human contract.defaming is clearly a sin worst than zina.
defamation can be proved if there is no proofs and no truthfull testimonies.
ask to proove adultery by 4 testimonies is pure hypocrisy.Now, let me reverse your question.
How can you convince me that zina is adultery without opposing these verses6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?
5104 And if they are told ?Come to what God has sent down, and to the messenger;? they say ?We are content with what we found our fathers doing.? What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?that is, no majority argument, no leaders argument and no ancestors arguments !
Peace
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There are 5 places in the Quran where the word Zina is mentioned. In 1732, 242, 243, 2568, and 6012.
And do not come near (taqrabū adultery (l-zinā, for it is an immoral/rebelious act (fishatan) and an evil path. (1732)
In the above verse, there is definition of Zina where is being called fishatan. Notice the construction of the verse "Do not go near ..." It would not make any sense to say "Do not go near defaming"
There is a similar construction in 2222
And they ask you about the menstruations? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them (taqrabhunna) until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
In 2222, "taqrabhunna" implies sex similar to 1732. How can you go near "Defaming someone"? It just does not make any sense.
In 242
The adulteress (al-zniyatu) and the adulterer (wal-znī, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Here action is implied between two people, a male and a female. There is no third party involved. The punishment of the crime is 100 lashes EACH. Again notice the verse construction. Translating the verse as "Male defamer and Female defamer, you shall lash each with 100 lashes" makes little sense.
244 is about wrongly accusing an honourable/independent females of adultery for which the punishment is 80 lashes and you also need 4 witnesses.
Surely, those who accuse (yarmna) the independent innocent believing females, they will be cursed in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have a painful retribution. (2423)
The word for accuse/slander/defame is "yarmna" and is mentioned in other places as well.
In 6012O you prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery (yaznna), nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bibuh'tnin), nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
The believing females are being instructed not to
• Commit shirk
• not steal
• nor commit adultery (yaznna)
• nor kill their children
• nor fabricate any falsehood (bibuh'tnin)
Notice the word for fabricating any falsehood (defame) is "bibuh'tnin" . It would not again make any sense to translate Zina as defame in this verse when you have bibuh'tnin included in there which has a similar meaning.
You are being naive in suggesting it does not affect anyone if two people commit adultery. An example would be a married man having sex with his mistress. This act will certainly hurt his wife. Another example is the birth of an illicit child when two people commit adultery and then the man refuses to father his child. This type of behaviour is very common in western countries where adultery is accepted form of behaviour. The society has to pay for the child being raised by a single mother. The psychological pain caused to the child is enormous. If they don't choose to have the child, then they commit another sin by killing the child (abortion). Other physical damage from adultery includes life-threatening sexually transmitted diseases like Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) and the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV). There are other harmful effects of Adultery that I won't go into but suffice to say that Adultery does cause pain to either yourself or those related to you.
based on what I have written above and focusing on verses that contain the word "Zina", Adultery/fornication as a meaning of Zina is a better fit imo.
I will leave you to ponder on this verse
As for those who enjoy that l-fishatu spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And God knows while you do not know. (2419)
From 1732 we know that zina is a form of fishatan so we have to be very careful in interpreting its meaning because of what it says in the verse above.
thanks
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In 242
The adulteress (al-zniyatu) and the adulterer (wal-znī, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Here action is implied between two people, a male and a female. There is no third party involved. The punishment of the crime is 100 lashes EACH. Again notice the verse construction. Translating the verse as "Male defamer and Female defamer, you shall lash each with 100 lashes" makes little sense.
Salaam,
When I read this , it reminds me of 538.
538
538 And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.We cannot say here Here action is implied between two people )
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
When I read this , it reminds me of 538.
538
538 And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.We cannot say here Here action is implied between two people )
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanYou certainly have a point but in 242 it also says "fa-ij'lid kulla widin min'hum mi-ata jaldatin" or flog each one of them 100 lashes which leads me to believe zani and the zania performed the same immoral act of zina together and not individually on separate occasions in different locations. "kulla widin" is for example used in 1231 which suggests all the participants were present together when the incident happened or for example in 411-12 where the context is to give each one from the same will
538 does not have these words and imo can be understood to mean that the male thief and female thief do not have to commit the crime together.
Does that make sense? )
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First word--active participle is a relational word. It needs a counterpart to effect the act denoted by the verb from which these are derived.
I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
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I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
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Salam god1quran1
thanks you, it is with such arguments that i like to debate.first let see meaning of bohtan
( ة
. .
. . .That's the root. it means astonished, amazed.
( ب
.
...
.
...
.now, let's go back to 60-12
6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.the red part is omitted by the monotheist traduction you take (so i will not commit bohtan on you). Red part is very important since not only mounth is implied.
i understand the bohtan in 6012 as as child attributed to a man by a women while conceived with another man.let see other verses
4156 And for their rejection and their saying about Mary a great BOHTAN.
3358 And those who harm the believing males and the believing females, with no just reason, they have brought upon themselves a BOHTAN and a gross sin.more from our teacher
2415 For you have cast it with your tongues, and you say with your mouths what you have no knowledge of, and you think it is a minor issue, while with God it was great.
2416 And when you heard it you should have said ?It was not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You, this is a great BOHTAN.?
4112 And whoever does a mistake or sin, then blames it on an innocent person; he has incurred BOHTAN and a clear sin.
2140 No, it will come to them suddenly and will TOBHITOHOM. And they will not be able to turn it away, nor will they be delayed.here now use of root bahata
2258 Have you not noted him who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said ?My Lord is the One who gives life and death,? he said ?I bring life and death.? Abraham said ?God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.? The one who rejected was baffled (BAHATA)! And God does not guide the wicked people.So, putting all together seems like if BAHT is the astonshed effect of lies on someone.
ZINA is more that BAHT. ZINA is accusing someone of crime that lead to a legal punishment (please note that i have refined my definition thanks to your help).
Please note that ZINA is like ZAYANA. EL ZANI, for me, decorates something with falsehood in order to ...
Accusing someone of crime needs proofs or testimonies. If no proofs and no testimonies then crime of ZINA of the defamor can be prooved.concerning word taqrabu, we find it here 443 O you who believe, do not come near (taqrabu) the contact prayer while you are intoxicated....
with obviously no sexual meaning.Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243 brickwall
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.the other question is
if accusing a women (mohasanat) to commit adultery without proofs worth 80 leashes how much worth accusing her to have killed someone without proof ? confusedPeace
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Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
For my education, can you kindly tell me how I can identify a relational word.
thanks.