Is Zina related to sex ?
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Can we open a separate thread to discuss Hadith? offtopic
This topic is about Zina.
Thank you
Salaam God1quran1
really, i have already mentionned all my actuals arguments in this thread. I cannot do more to convice you.Concerning Hadiths, i think, from my understanding of Zina, that hadiths are zina on Allah, his words and messengers.
Zina on Allah and his messegers dip people in the dark. We have just to see how muslims countries are.
Zina on humans is a crime on humans and only defamed people suffers.Adultery is not always a crime. In echangists couples for example, in their special and hidden places, there is no one who is suffering.
Adultery cannot even considered as a rupture of human contract.defaming is clearly a sin worst than zina.
defamation can be proved if there is no proofs and no truthfull testimonies.
ask to proove adultery by 4 testimonies is pure hypocrisy.Now, let me reverse your question.
How can you convince me that zina is adultery without opposing these verses6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
3367 And they will say ?Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.?
5104 And if they are told ?Come to what God has sent down, and to the messenger;? they say ?We are content with what we found our fathers doing.? What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?that is, no majority argument, no leaders argument and no ancestors arguments !
Peace
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There are 5 places in the Quran where the word Zina is mentioned. In 1732, 242, 243, 2568, and 6012.
And do not come near (taqrabū adultery (l-zinā, for it is an immoral/rebelious act (fishatan) and an evil path. (1732)
In the above verse, there is definition of Zina where is being called fishatan. Notice the construction of the verse "Do not go near ..." It would not make any sense to say "Do not go near defaming"
There is a similar construction in 2222
And they ask you about the menstruations? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them (taqrabhunna) until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
In 2222, "taqrabhunna" implies sex similar to 1732. How can you go near "Defaming someone"? It just does not make any sense.
In 242
The adulteress (al-zniyatu) and the adulterer (wal-znī, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Here action is implied between two people, a male and a female. There is no third party involved. The punishment of the crime is 100 lashes EACH. Again notice the verse construction. Translating the verse as "Male defamer and Female defamer, you shall lash each with 100 lashes" makes little sense.
244 is about wrongly accusing an honourable/independent females of adultery for which the punishment is 80 lashes and you also need 4 witnesses.
Surely, those who accuse (yarmna) the independent innocent believing females, they will be cursed in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have a painful retribution. (2423)
The word for accuse/slander/defame is "yarmna" and is mentioned in other places as well.
In 6012O you prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery (yaznna), nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bibuh'tnin), nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
The believing females are being instructed not to
• Commit shirk
• not steal
• nor commit adultery (yaznna)
• nor kill their children
• nor fabricate any falsehood (bibuh'tnin)
Notice the word for fabricating any falsehood (defame) is "bibuh'tnin" . It would not again make any sense to translate Zina as defame in this verse when you have bibuh'tnin included in there which has a similar meaning.
You are being naive in suggesting it does not affect anyone if two people commit adultery. An example would be a married man having sex with his mistress. This act will certainly hurt his wife. Another example is the birth of an illicit child when two people commit adultery and then the man refuses to father his child. This type of behaviour is very common in western countries where adultery is accepted form of behaviour. The society has to pay for the child being raised by a single mother. The psychological pain caused to the child is enormous. If they don't choose to have the child, then they commit another sin by killing the child (abortion). Other physical damage from adultery includes life-threatening sexually transmitted diseases like Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) and the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV). There are other harmful effects of Adultery that I won't go into but suffice to say that Adultery does cause pain to either yourself or those related to you.
based on what I have written above and focusing on verses that contain the word "Zina", Adultery/fornication as a meaning of Zina is a better fit imo.
I will leave you to ponder on this verse
As for those who enjoy that l-fishatu spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And God knows while you do not know. (2419)
From 1732 we know that zina is a form of fishatan so we have to be very careful in interpreting its meaning because of what it says in the verse above.
thanks
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In 242
The adulteress (al-zniyatu) and the adulterer (wal-znī, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Here action is implied between two people, a male and a female. There is no third party involved. The punishment of the crime is 100 lashes EACH. Again notice the verse construction. Translating the verse as "Male defamer and Female defamer, you shall lash each with 100 lashes" makes little sense.
Salaam,
When I read this , it reminds me of 538.
538
538 And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.We cannot say here Here action is implied between two people )
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
When I read this , it reminds me of 538.
538
538 And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.We cannot say here Here action is implied between two people )
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanYou certainly have a point but in 242 it also says "fa-ij'lid kulla widin min'hum mi-ata jaldatin" or flog each one of them 100 lashes which leads me to believe zani and the zania performed the same immoral act of zina together and not individually on separate occasions in different locations. "kulla widin" is for example used in 1231 which suggests all the participants were present together when the incident happened or for example in 411-12 where the context is to give each one from the same will
538 does not have these words and imo can be understood to mean that the male thief and female thief do not have to commit the crime together.
Does that make sense? )
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First word--active participle is a relational word. It needs a counterpart to effect the act denoted by the verb from which these are derived.
I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
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I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
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Salam god1quran1
thanks you, it is with such arguments that i like to debate.first let see meaning of bohtan
( ة
. .
. . .That's the root. it means astonished, amazed.
( ب
.
...
.
...
.now, let's go back to 60-12
6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.the red part is omitted by the monotheist traduction you take (so i will not commit bohtan on you). Red part is very important since not only mounth is implied.
i understand the bohtan in 6012 as as child attributed to a man by a women while conceived with another man.let see other verses
4156 And for their rejection and their saying about Mary a great BOHTAN.
3358 And those who harm the believing males and the believing females, with no just reason, they have brought upon themselves a BOHTAN and a gross sin.more from our teacher
2415 For you have cast it with your tongues, and you say with your mouths what you have no knowledge of, and you think it is a minor issue, while with God it was great.
2416 And when you heard it you should have said ?It was not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You, this is a great BOHTAN.?
4112 And whoever does a mistake or sin, then blames it on an innocent person; he has incurred BOHTAN and a clear sin.
2140 No, it will come to them suddenly and will TOBHITOHOM. And they will not be able to turn it away, nor will they be delayed.here now use of root bahata
2258 Have you not noted him who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said ?My Lord is the One who gives life and death,? he said ?I bring life and death.? Abraham said ?God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.? The one who rejected was baffled (BAHATA)! And God does not guide the wicked people.So, putting all together seems like if BAHT is the astonshed effect of lies on someone.
ZINA is more that BAHT. ZINA is accusing someone of crime that lead to a legal punishment (please note that i have refined my definition thanks to your help).
Please note that ZINA is like ZAYANA. EL ZANI, for me, decorates something with falsehood in order to ...
Accusing someone of crime needs proofs or testimonies. If no proofs and no testimonies then crime of ZINA of the defamor can be prooved.concerning word taqrabu, we find it here 443 O you who believe, do not come near (taqrabu) the contact prayer while you are intoxicated....
with obviously no sexual meaning.Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243 brickwall
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.the other question is
if accusing a women (mohasanat) to commit adultery without proofs worth 80 leashes how much worth accusing her to have killed someone without proof ? confusedPeace
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Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
For my education, can you kindly tell me how I can identify a relational word.
thanks.
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Salam god1quran1
6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
PeacePeace All,
How do you, "fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets"
hmm
God Bless
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Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243 brickwall
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.I am going to respond to the rest of your post later but thought I should address the above right now.
When you bring forth a new theory it is your responsibility to not only prove it but also to apply the same rules and logical consistency that you are applying to the theory/understanding that your understanding will replace.
With what I have written above in mind, I will pose the same question back to you. Assuming zani does mean "defamer", why can't a defamer (Zani) not marry an athiest? Why can they only marry a zania or a polythiest?
So I am really not sure where you are going with this?? How does this question help to decide Zani means someone who defames?
the other question is
if accusing a women (mohasanat) to commit adultery without proofs worth 80 leashes how much worth accusing her to have killed someone without proof ? confusedYou cannot use omission in support of your argument. Quran cannot list each and every rule or law that we must follow. We need to focus on what is mentioned and use our intellect to apply our understanding to other issues.
You need to use material that is in the Quran in support of your arguments rather that speculating on what if scenarios. Quran does not talk about what should be the punishment if someone accuses an honorable man of rape for example. Should we then use this omission to conclude a zani is someone who defames?Kindly be consistent in your arguments and please make sure those arguments don't weaken your own theories/understanding.
thanks.
Peace
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For my education, can you kindly tell me how I can identify a relational word.
thanks.
A relational word is the one that needs two entities to completely portray the signification infolded in that word. Like, Rabb is a relational word. If there is no slave / allegiant / subject the word Rabb is but redundant. Similarly Abd - slave - servant is relational; there have to be two entities-persons to render this word a relaity.
Zina is a well known and fully recognized word in Arabic lexicons and natives are a living evidence who use this word for specific signification. Non natives cannot say that it means this or that.
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You certainly have a point but in 242 it also says "fa-ij'lid kulla widin min'hum mi-ata jaldatin" or flog each one of them 100 lashes which leads me to believe zani and the zania performed the same immoral act of zina together and not individually on separate occasions in different locations. "kulla widin" is for example used in 1231 which suggests all the participants were present together when the incident happened or for example in 411-12 where the context is to give each one from the same will
538 does not have these words and imo can be understood to mean that the male thief and female thief do not have to commit the crime together.
Does that make sense? )
Salaam bro,
Yes, that make sense to me... But at the moment I have to be -X
I need more time to study on this. InshaAllah, I will get back to you on this if I find something different, otherwise there is no reason for me to reject what you said ) MashaAllah!May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.The Man held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse shall not henceforth enter into the contract of Nikah matrimonial bondage except with a woman-convict of illicit sexual intercourse or a idol-worshipping woman.
And no one except a convict-man of illicit sexual intercourse or idol-worshipper shall marry certain woman held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse.
And this marriage entering into Nikah with the man or the woman convicted of illicit sexual intercourse is prohibited for the Believers.Please read with 2221
And you people should not marry the idol-worshipping women unless they heartily accept the belief.
And indeed a believing house-maid is better for marriage than an idol-worshipping woman notwithstanding how much she astounded you people.
And nor you people should cause the wedding/associate in matrimonial bondage the believing women with idol-worshipping men unless they heartily accept the belief.
And indeed a believing house-servant is better than an idol-worshipping man notwithstanding how much he astounded you people.
They the idol-worshippers are the people who invite others towards Hell-Fire.
And Allah the Exalted calls towards Paradise and to seek the forgiveness with His permission.
And He the Exalted succinctly explains His Aa'ya'at verbal passages
so that they might conveniently and reflexively save it in memory, recall to narrate and get admonition.Now the remaining point is about non mention of "atheist" in both these Ayahs. Dictionary defines an atheist as a person who does not believe in Allah or deities. Is he not an idol worshipper? Is there no object that he worships? What difference you find between a Mushrik and an atheist?
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With what I have written above in mind, I will pose the same question back to you. Assuming zani does mean "defamer", why can't a defamer (Zani) not marry an athiest? Why can they only marry a zania or a polythiest?
Shirk=defaming Allah
Zina=defaming humansMochrik and Zani are same people who love lies and defaming.
A truthfull don't marie liers. Liers of all types marry themselvesWe need to focus on what is mentioned and use our intellect to apply our understanding to other issues.
hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail
and after , what is your response to penality applied to defamers for murder ?
Peace -
What difference you find between a Mushrik and an atheist?
Atheists says God don't exists, Quran is bullshit.
Mochrik Says Allah Akbar and Quran is Sacred but , after that, Muchrik mix words of Allah with other words. Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah. Mochrik go to teachers other than the only Rabb (educator) of islam and believe their words.Peace
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Atheists says God don't exists, Quran is bullshit.
Mochrik Says Allah Akbar and Quran is Sacred but , after that, Muchrik mix words of Allah with other words. Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah. Mochrik go to teachers other than the only Rabb (educator) of islam and believe their words.Peace
Atheists are not interested in commenting about Qur'aan, Allah and the Messengers.
No Mushrik says Qur'aan is sacred.
Mushrik is he who adores or worships objects - deities termed as miscellaneous gods apart Allah the Exalted.
Atheist adopts his own thoughts, desires etc as worshiping entity.
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@Mazhar, look likes you're expert in Quranic teology.
Can I ask you, what's the meaning of "musyrikeen" in 2221 according to Quran alone?
Is Trinitian Christian is one of the musyrikeen?
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@Mazhar, look likes you're expert in Quranic teology.
Can I ask you, what's the meaning of "musyrikeen" in 2221 according to Quran alone?
Is Trinitian Christian is one of the musyrikeen?
2221 has nothing to do with Christians. We should never think and call them or equate them with Mushrikeen. Allah the Exalted does not say so, who are we to name them like this.
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2221 has nothing to do with Christians. We should never think and call them or equate them with Mushrikeen. Allah the Exalted does not say so, who are we to name them like this.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while MUSHRIKEENS
4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him (IN YUSHRIK BIHI), you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.
KOFR is rejection. MUSHRIK reject god when he is whorshipped alone and accept him when mixed with others.
so SHIRK is a kind of KOFR since acceptance of Allah is conditionned.
in fact ALLAH=LIE equation has two readings
Atheist reading ALLAH is a lie. There is no ALLAH.
SHIRK reading We whorship lies. We Whorship ALLAH only if we can redecorate (nozayyinou) all what he said with what we want.Now we can respond to the "follow desires argument" of mazhar with a quranic verse
4716 And some of them listen to you, until when they go out from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge ?What did he say?? Those are the ones whom God has sealed their hearts, and they followed their desires.
Not following Allah ar searching other sources as "the given knowledge" is following desires.
if Fact, we know from verse 37 that only Allah understand all quran
A mushrik is a "following desires" also since he can choose his "islamic doctrine" by choosing the "given knowledge" he wants other than Allah.1035 Say ?Are there any of those whom you set up as partners (SHOURAKAIIKOM) who can guide to the truth?? Say ?God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or he who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge??
1035 explains why we have not to follow whose who have been given knowledge. That's shirk
Peace