Is Zina related to sex ?
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First word--active participle is a relational word. It needs a counterpart to effect the act denoted by the verb from which these are derived.
I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
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I am not sure I understand but are you suggesting in 538 a male thief needs a female counterpart to effect the act?
As mmkhan suggested the beginning parts of 242 and 538 are grammatically analogous so how would you make a distinction between the two verses. I argued in the previous that the additional words (kulla widin) in 242 provide us with clues that the same crime was committed by the zani and the zania.
In 538 we do not see this and can deduce that the male and female thief do not have to be partners in crime to get "their hands cut off" as punishment at the same time.
Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
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Salam god1quran1
thanks you, it is with such arguments that i like to debate.first let see meaning of bohtan
( ة
. .
. . .That's the root. it means astonished, amazed.
( ب
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...
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...
.now, let's go back to 60-12
6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.the red part is omitted by the monotheist traduction you take (so i will not commit bohtan on you). Red part is very important since not only mounth is implied.
i understand the bohtan in 6012 as as child attributed to a man by a women while conceived with another man.let see other verses
4156 And for their rejection and their saying about Mary a great BOHTAN.
3358 And those who harm the believing males and the believing females, with no just reason, they have brought upon themselves a BOHTAN and a gross sin.more from our teacher
2415 For you have cast it with your tongues, and you say with your mouths what you have no knowledge of, and you think it is a minor issue, while with God it was great.
2416 And when you heard it you should have said ?It was not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You, this is a great BOHTAN.?
4112 And whoever does a mistake or sin, then blames it on an innocent person; he has incurred BOHTAN and a clear sin.
2140 No, it will come to them suddenly and will TOBHITOHOM. And they will not be able to turn it away, nor will they be delayed.here now use of root bahata
2258 Have you not noted him who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said ?My Lord is the One who gives life and death,? he said ?I bring life and death.? Abraham said ?God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.? The one who rejected was baffled (BAHATA)! And God does not guide the wicked people.So, putting all together seems like if BAHT is the astonshed effect of lies on someone.
ZINA is more that BAHT. ZINA is accusing someone of crime that lead to a legal punishment (please note that i have refined my definition thanks to your help).
Please note that ZINA is like ZAYANA. EL ZANI, for me, decorates something with falsehood in order to ...
Accusing someone of crime needs proofs or testimonies. If no proofs and no testimonies then crime of ZINA of the defamor can be prooved.concerning word taqrabu, we find it here 443 O you who believe, do not come near (taqrabu) the contact prayer while you are intoxicated....
with obviously no sexual meaning.Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243 brickwall
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.the other question is
if accusing a women (mohasanat) to commit adultery without proofs worth 80 leashes how much worth accusing her to have killed someone without proof ? confusedPeace
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Zina is a relational word. For this act there has to be a male and a female counterpart. This was the difference I pointed out to mmk with regard to other active participle which is not a relational word with another person.
For my education, can you kindly tell me how I can identify a relational word.
thanks.
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Salam god1quran1
6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
PeacePeace All,
How do you, "fabricate any falsehood (bohtan) between thair hands and their feets"
hmm
God Bless
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Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243 brickwall
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.I am going to respond to the rest of your post later but thought I should address the above right now.
When you bring forth a new theory it is your responsibility to not only prove it but also to apply the same rules and logical consistency that you are applying to the theory/understanding that your understanding will replace.
With what I have written above in mind, I will pose the same question back to you. Assuming zani does mean "defamer", why can't a defamer (Zani) not marry an athiest? Why can they only marry a zania or a polythiest?
So I am really not sure where you are going with this?? How does this question help to decide Zani means someone who defames?
the other question is
if accusing a women (mohasanat) to commit adultery without proofs worth 80 leashes how much worth accusing her to have killed someone without proof ? confusedYou cannot use omission in support of your argument. Quran cannot list each and every rule or law that we must follow. We need to focus on what is mentioned and use our intellect to apply our understanding to other issues.
You need to use material that is in the Quran in support of your arguments rather that speculating on what if scenarios. Quran does not talk about what should be the punishment if someone accuses an honorable man of rape for example. Should we then use this omission to conclude a zani is someone who defames?Kindly be consistent in your arguments and please make sure those arguments don't weaken your own theories/understanding.
thanks.
Peace
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For my education, can you kindly tell me how I can identify a relational word.
thanks.
A relational word is the one that needs two entities to completely portray the signification infolded in that word. Like, Rabb is a relational word. If there is no slave / allegiant / subject the word Rabb is but redundant. Similarly Abd - slave - servant is relational; there have to be two entities-persons to render this word a relaity.
Zina is a well known and fully recognized word in Arabic lexicons and natives are a living evidence who use this word for specific signification. Non natives cannot say that it means this or that.
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You certainly have a point but in 242 it also says "fa-ij'lid kulla widin min'hum mi-ata jaldatin" or flog each one of them 100 lashes which leads me to believe zani and the zania performed the same immoral act of zina together and not individually on separate occasions in different locations. "kulla widin" is for example used in 1231 which suggests all the participants were present together when the incident happened or for example in 411-12 where the context is to give each one from the same will
538 does not have these words and imo can be understood to mean that the male thief and female thief do not have to commit the crime together.
Does that make sense? )
Salaam bro,
Yes, that make sense to me... But at the moment I have to be -X
I need more time to study on this. InshaAllah, I will get back to you on this if I find something different, otherwise there is no reason for me to reject what you said ) MashaAllah!May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Now i still have a open question for zina=aduletery theory
Why ZANI cannot marry atheits according to 243
I am interested to read mazhar opinion on this point.The Man held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse shall not henceforth enter into the contract of Nikah matrimonial bondage except with a woman-convict of illicit sexual intercourse or a idol-worshipping woman.
And no one except a convict-man of illicit sexual intercourse or idol-worshipper shall marry certain woman held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse.
And this marriage entering into Nikah with the man or the woman convicted of illicit sexual intercourse is prohibited for the Believers.Please read with 2221
And you people should not marry the idol-worshipping women unless they heartily accept the belief.
And indeed a believing house-maid is better for marriage than an idol-worshipping woman notwithstanding how much she astounded you people.
And nor you people should cause the wedding/associate in matrimonial bondage the believing women with idol-worshipping men unless they heartily accept the belief.
And indeed a believing house-servant is better than an idol-worshipping man notwithstanding how much he astounded you people.
They the idol-worshippers are the people who invite others towards Hell-Fire.
And Allah the Exalted calls towards Paradise and to seek the forgiveness with His permission.
And He the Exalted succinctly explains His Aa'ya'at verbal passages
so that they might conveniently and reflexively save it in memory, recall to narrate and get admonition.Now the remaining point is about non mention of "atheist" in both these Ayahs. Dictionary defines an atheist as a person who does not believe in Allah or deities. Is he not an idol worshipper? Is there no object that he worships? What difference you find between a Mushrik and an atheist?
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With what I have written above in mind, I will pose the same question back to you. Assuming zani does mean "defamer", why can't a defamer (Zani) not marry an athiest? Why can they only marry a zania or a polythiest?
Shirk=defaming Allah
Zina=defaming humansMochrik and Zani are same people who love lies and defaming.
A truthfull don't marie liers. Liers of all types marry themselvesWe need to focus on what is mentioned and use our intellect to apply our understanding to other issues.
hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail
and after , what is your response to penality applied to defamers for murder ?
Peace -
What difference you find between a Mushrik and an atheist?
Atheists says God don't exists, Quran is bullshit.
Mochrik Says Allah Akbar and Quran is Sacred but , after that, Muchrik mix words of Allah with other words. Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah. Mochrik go to teachers other than the only Rabb (educator) of islam and believe their words.Peace
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Atheists says God don't exists, Quran is bullshit.
Mochrik Says Allah Akbar and Quran is Sacred but , after that, Muchrik mix words of Allah with other words. Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah. Mochrik go to teachers other than the only Rabb (educator) of islam and believe their words.Peace
Atheists are not interested in commenting about Qur'aan, Allah and the Messengers.
No Mushrik says Qur'aan is sacred.
Mushrik is he who adores or worships objects - deities termed as miscellaneous gods apart Allah the Exalted.
Atheist adopts his own thoughts, desires etc as worshiping entity.
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@Mazhar, look likes you're expert in Quranic teology.
Can I ask you, what's the meaning of "musyrikeen" in 2221 according to Quran alone?
Is Trinitian Christian is one of the musyrikeen?
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@Mazhar, look likes you're expert in Quranic teology.
Can I ask you, what's the meaning of "musyrikeen" in 2221 according to Quran alone?
Is Trinitian Christian is one of the musyrikeen?
2221 has nothing to do with Christians. We should never think and call them or equate them with Mushrikeen. Allah the Exalted does not say so, who are we to name them like this.
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2221 has nothing to do with Christians. We should never think and call them or equate them with Mushrikeen. Allah the Exalted does not say so, who are we to name them like this.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while MUSHRIKEENS
4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him (IN YUSHRIK BIHI), you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.
KOFR is rejection. MUSHRIK reject god when he is whorshipped alone and accept him when mixed with others.
so SHIRK is a kind of KOFR since acceptance of Allah is conditionned.
in fact ALLAH=LIE equation has two readings
Atheist reading ALLAH is a lie. There is no ALLAH.
SHIRK reading We whorship lies. We Whorship ALLAH only if we can redecorate (nozayyinou) all what he said with what we want.Now we can respond to the "follow desires argument" of mazhar with a quranic verse
4716 And some of them listen to you, until when they go out from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge ?What did he say?? Those are the ones whom God has sealed their hearts, and they followed their desires.
Not following Allah ar searching other sources as "the given knowledge" is following desires.
if Fact, we know from verse 37 that only Allah understand all quran
A mushrik is a "following desires" also since he can choose his "islamic doctrine" by choosing the "given knowledge" he wants other than Allah.1035 Say ?Are there any of those whom you set up as partners (SHOURAKAIIKOM) who can guide to the truth?? Say ?God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or he who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge??
1035 explains why we have not to follow whose who have been given knowledge. That's shirk
Peace
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2221 has nothing to do with Christians. We should never think and call them or equate them with Mushrikeen. Allah the Exalted does not say so, who are we to name them like this.
Originally what I probleming is about marriage in 55, which says we can marry "ahl kitab".Allah already condemn them in various verses.
I know the kafaru/kufr divided into 2 in the Quran,first Kurf Alkitab (Christian,Jews) and Kufr musyrek (non believe/set equals to Allah).
Now the Trinitian Christ believe Allah has Son, Allah has 3 existence.Is that mean Tritinty teaching nearly enter musryikeen state?
Then what criterion of Ahl Kitab,who we can married to, based on 55?
Sorry for mislead the actual theme of this topic.
KOFR is rejection. MUSHRIK reject god when he is whorshipped alone and accept him when mixed with others.
so SHIRK is a kind of KOFR since acceptance of Allah is conditionned.
SHIRK reading We whorship lies. We Whorship ALLAH only if we can redecorate (nozayyinou) all what he said with what we want.
A mushrik is a "following desires" also since he can choose his "islamic doctrine" by choosing the "given knowledge" he wants other than Allah.So what is a actual meaning of mushirk, according to you @noshirk
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Originally what I probleming is about marriage in 55, which says we can marry "ahl kitab".Allah already condemn them in various verses.
I know the kafaru/kufr divided into 2 in the Quran,first Kurf Alkitab (Christian,Jews) and Kufr musyrek (non believe/set equals to Allah).
Now the Trinitian Christ believe Allah has Son, Allah has 3 existence.Is that mean Tritinty teaching nearly enter musryikeen state?
Then what criterion of Ahl Kitab,who we can married to, based on 55?
The point mentioned in the quoted Ayah is rather serious than their assertion about trinity. They are also not called Mushrik.
The identity of People of Book is different from Mushrikeen though both refused to accept Qur'aan.
Let us not equate them.
Allah the Exalted knows everything. Despite having given this information marriage with the independent women of is permitted. -
So what is a actual meaning of mushirk, according to you @noshirk
Shirk is , while believeing in God as ALLAh and believing in Quran
- Taking as educators (RABB) in deen other than ALLAH ( as a prophet , priest, ..). That is relying on other than God and his own mind to understand quran.
- mixing quran with others words not coming from allah and saying that they are as if they were from God or inspired from him
problem is much more complicated for believers in God who didn't received Quran.
Really i cannot write my understanding on this because it is too complex for this thread and we have first to understand what is Quran in Deen islam (remember that abraham, moses and so on were muslims).22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the SALAT, and from Our provisions to them they spend.
24 And those who believe ??? in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
25 These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the successful ones.First page of quran (after fatiha) is of great importance.
Peace
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Shirk is , while believeing in God as ALLAh and believing in Quran
- Taking as educators (RABB) in deen other than ALLAH ( as a prophet , priest, ..). That is relying on other than God and his own mind to understand quran.
- mixing quran with others words not coming from allah and saying that they are as if they were from God or inspired from him
problem is much more complicated for believers in God who didn't received Quran.
Really i cannot write my understanding on this because it is too complex for this thread and we have first to understand what is Quran in Deen islam (remember that abraham, moses and so on were muslims).22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the SALAT, and from Our provisions to them they spend.
24 And those who believe ??? in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
25 These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the successful ones.First page of quran (after fatiha) is of great importance.
Peace
The problem is
"- Taking as educators (RABB) in deen other than ALLAH ( as a prophet , priest, ..). That is relying on other than God and his own mind to understand quran."
This is purely your invention. One inevitably relies on others to understand Quran. For example learning to read . . . learning Arabic. God himself used others . . . your parents, teachers, prophets . . . etc.
"- mixing quran with others words not coming from allah and saying that they are as if they were from God or inspired from him"
If you mix anything with the Quran as if it was equal to the Quran - then it is form of Shirk. As for divine inspiration - that is much more diffcicult to judge and categorise.
"Really i cannot write my understanding on this because it is too complex for this thread and we have first to understand what is Quran in Deen islam (remember that abraham, moses and so on were muslims)."
Then why the BS before?
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Atheists says God don't exists, Quran is bullshit.
Mochrik Says Allah Akbar and Quran is Sacred but , after that, Muchrik mix words of Allah with other words. Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah. Mochrik go to teachers other than the only Rabb (educator) of islam and believe their words.Peace
"Muchrik associate others legislators in deen of Allah than Allah."
Wrong - Islam has two legislatives - Allah and Prophet Muhammad.
Although, obviously, their nature is different . . . As Allah is the supreme and absolute authority - where as the legislative powers of The Messenger of Allah are granted by Allah . . . nevertheless - majority of Muslims - since the beginning of Islam - have recognised Prophet Muhammad as a legislative authority.