Heaven, hell, god, and Islam - questions unanswered for too long.
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ASAK,
I have lurked these forums sparingly in my free time in the past, and I believe that I have finally found the place to voice my opinion and have it be heard by a learned crowd that also has enough courage to question who they are and what they really believe. So what I ask now I hope will not be met with animosity of any kind, but rather with kindness, thoughtfulness, and above all, logic.
I was never a perfect Muslim in that I always had a difficult time believing in many of the things that I heard, especially those things that I heard in the stories of the hadith. I was confused - confused because I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to take these stories at face value or attempt to understand the lesson underlying them. Either way, I was unsatisfied, both because the stories in and of themselves were often irrational and because the lesson they attempted to convey didn't sit well with me anyway. I no longer place much weight on the hadith, and after this realization, I was content...at least for a bit. It was a little later, however, that I realized that there was a much greater problem.
I am eighteen years old, in my first year of college at a university thousands of miles from my home. That's not to say that I've done anything especially crazy since coming here, at least from a Muslim perspective. I do not drink alcohol. I do not smoke in any way. I do not have sex. These temptations once bothered me, but for a while now, I have had no problem abstaining from these things from a purely personal perspective. It is not my religion that stops me from doing these things, but rather my own personal beliefs that keep me at bay. The greatest problems I face as a Muslim is are theological and philosophical in nature.
I have recently begun to accept that for a long time now, I have not and do not believe in god the same way my parents, my immediate family, or my extended family do. The very fundamentals of the religion, which I once had no problem accepting, now present me with a constant daily challenge and a stress that I am unable to bear alone anymore. Thus I come to you all with my issue.
I believe there is a god. I believe that god is good, merciful, and all-powerful. It is for these same reasons that I believe a god, which must exist, created us not for the sole purpose of worshipping him, but to create good and be as good as possible as humans. I believe god created us with free will so that we may go out and help others. Although this conclusion might not seem very dangerous at first, it does contain some serious underlying consequences for my thoughts on Islam. If god is all-powerful and merciful, why must we explicitly worship him in order to gain his approval? I believe there is a god, and I am willing and wanting to pray to him to show him my appreciation for creating me and blessing me as he has. But I also know that there are plenty of people in the world who are not "Muslim", yet who are good people regardless people who create good and attempt to be as good as possible as humans. If these people are successful in being good while not being Muslim, why must they be punished by a god who is both merciful and good? God does not need us. He is all-powerful, all-knowing. I can understand why someone who antagonizes god would fail to be in god's favor, but I cannot understand why those who follow other religions, simply the idea of god, or even fail to acknowledge god would suddenly be sent to an eternal damnation. In fact, I have a hard time understanding that almost anything done in this world, in this short timespan that we have, could possibly warrant an eternity in hellfire.
But the Qur?an states multiple times that the nonbelievers will enter the fire. The Qur?an alludes to the lord?s wrath multiple times, but how can I simultaneously read of the lord?s eternal wrath and believe that he is merciful? How can I believe that of the seven billion people on this planet, only one billion will finally enter heaven? How can I be sure that I am not following the wrong path, since billions of other people in the world believe that I am the one who is going to hell, while they are the ones who are going to heaven? I want to believe that the Qur?an is true and perfect, but I have a hard time accepting it when it states that we essentially have to be born into a very specific sect of a very specific religion in order to gain eternal paradise (besides converts; the vast majority of Muslims are born into the religion).
We keep finding different interpretations of various sections of the Qur?an and telling ourselves that a previous interpretation was incorrect, but aren?t we just fitting our own ideals into the religion when we do this? Are we not just mixing around words, translations, and interpretations to fit what we believe? And if we are really doing this, do we really need religion to assert what we believe?
I believe there is a god. I believe he is good. I believe he is merciful. I believe he is all-powerful. At the same time, I am afraid. I am afraid because I have been told that the more my mind wanders and the more I start to logically approach these things based on the way my mind challenges what I believe, the more god decides to lead me astray. I don?t want to believe that my god would abandon me simply for reconsidering what I believe to be my religion, but I cannot pretend to ignore these burning questions. My main questions can be summed up in this way
Based off of what I have just written, am I still a Muslim?
What proof can I have, both emotionally and logically, that the Qur?an is perfect? Should I believe that the Qur?an is perfect?
If god is good, merciful, and all-powerful, why are there so many references to wrath and hell in the Qur?an? Why is it that good people must go to hell simply because they don?t have a very specific belief of what god is?
Sorry for the long post. I didn?t mean for it to get this long, but I clearly have a lot to get off my chest. I look forward to all your replies, for they will surely be instrumental in my worldview. I came here because I am looking for answers to questions that I have attempted to bury all my life. Hopefully here, I can find something better.
-Faithful.
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Thank you for your post, I don't find it long.
I appreciate it and I find it among the most interesting ones because of its sincerity.
I share your doubts, and I have similar questions.
I think God is running everything. Each one of us will eventually receive his own answers from Divinity when we let our intellectual pride go, and surrender to Peace. We came here on earth to amend our relationship with God and for atonement. There are many Paths, Islam being just one of them! Love is the key, together with thankfulness and quest for forgiveness.
There are some interesting threads here on this Forum, like
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604250.msg305283#msg305283
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315463#msg315463
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604655.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604076.0etc... and there are many more for you to find.
Do your own spiritual path and remember to take responsibility for your own soul.
May God bless you.
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Dear brother,
In the end, God alone is competent to judge us. We cannot judge people instead of God! God is the Ultimate Judge, no Muslim can deny this, God is All-knowing and Infinitely wise, thus, He knows us better than we know ourselves. Therefore, the least thing we can do (as wise and pious Muslims) is to never question Him and trust in His righteous judgement.
Life is a test. Do you intend to ace it? In the Holy Qur'an, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that there are two oposite fates for us, each individual will either go to paradise or hell (both for eternity), there is no inbetween. And God alone decides who is going to win or loose, based on our deeds in this life. Therefore, instead of questioning the perfect justice and wisdom of the Supreme Creator (like Ibliss did), we should question our own judgements and try our best to completely obey the commandements of our Exalted ONE Lord, ALLAH (SWT), as per the Qur'an.
Direction Paradise InchaaLLah
Peace.
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Salaam,
Welcome to the forum.
If we believe in a merciful God, what logically extends from that? That God provides guidance on an individual level? That God also provides guidance in other ways that help to clarify in cases of confusion - e.g. modesty in terms of clothing, although this extends to modesty in our general attitudes, etc and gives us an additional boost, a glad tiding for those who believe as it mentions in translation.
In terms of hell, this is a large topic and I can't do it justice here in terms of providing an explanation but I will try to get the main points down. You mentioned how our interpretations can be affected by our own attitudes and personalities - is this part of the Quran's test bringing out our character, we are learning alongside it? that's a side note - but so too can our understand of concepts like hell? Maybe people who have been through terrible loss and suffering on Earth at the hands on other people, can understand the dire warning of hell in a different way as they have seen that side of humans.
I also think that the warning of hell is very clear in the way that it is so that no one can delude themselves into thinking that is doesn't matter what happens here. It may also be so that only the worst of the worst go to hell - I remember coming across a verse that stated that as well as that some may say that they will go back and do good but they don;t mean this. What this seems to be getting at is that some people don't really care. They may only say it when God is in front of them but apart from that as soon as they think God isn't in sight, they say and do something else entirely.
On the Day of Judgement, Prophet Jesus (5116-119) mentions to God that if God forgives those who took him and his mother for worship - then God is Most Wise. After this God does not state He will never forgive these particular individuals. God states people are rewarded for their truthfulness, and is it possible this means sincerity? I find that here there is a subtle point about shirk. That kafir is not simply disbeliever, I have seen this mentioned before, not sure if its on here but elsewhere. It relates more to the idea of being completely ungrateful, the idea that even when you know God exists, you don't care. Thus, if I recall correctly, Iblis is called a kafir, he knows God exists though.
So in this case, those sent to hell, are not just people who didn't believe because they lacked knowledge or were not entirely sure, they are people who were firstly persistently disobedient, take Iblis as the example here then look at how he did not ask for forgiveness from Allah. He did not care. He wanted to be at war with humanity out of arrogance, hate and malice. This is more than one who does not believe as we may usually think of it.
And the Quran states that those who believe in God, the last day - i.e. some form of justice that God will provide that these are believers, in one verse it mentions be they Jews, Christians, Sabeans - because its referring to the environment of the Arabs at the time/environment of the time.
There are also points in the Quran that state that if God knew any goodness in people, He would guide them. When an individual shows true compassion to others, I have seen this from "non-Muslims", are they being guided by God? I believe so. Are they monotheists? I don't know. Maybe God is guiding that individual, the way they need to be guided. I am not one to judge them. They may never call themselves Muslim, they may only ever call God the Creator. In any case, they would believe in and love their actual Creator which seems to be the whole point of avoiding shirk in the Quran But they are people who believe in central Islamic values, and behave according to them moreso than I have seen some Muslims do. Allah knows them best though and is the best Judge. However, I believe non-Muslims can be guided just as much as Muslims.
The Quran mentions that there are some people who may call themselves Muslim, but they do behave as Allah ask, and this is very simple, just be a decent human being and don't go and do deliberate evil knowingly etc then there can also be some who may not call themselves Muslim but what they do pleases Allah. So the 1 billion going to heaven - it isn't like this as far the Quran says from my reading. In fact, I think the Quran makes this point clear, i.e. its not of the more ambiguous verses.
I wouldn't call the Quran perfect. I believe only Allah swt is perfect. I would say the Quran is preserved. There are many ways to look at this, one might be to assess the nature of the oral recitation of the Quran, alongside the fact that now more so than ever in the past when scriptures were revealed, we have so many people reciting the Quran. Most are non-Arab, do not understand the Arabic and then on top of this there are ambiguous verses anyway where people don't know the meaning. and some argue that the poetry is not very good and the structure is apparently a "mess" and then these ambiguous verses where people can't semantically be sure what is being said, however we do not have variation that we would expect. We would expect that now, especially given the factors, amount of people reciting it, non-Arabs reciting it and plenty of converts over centuries by accident not even just deliberately. There are other things but I do not have time to go into it right now. I think you need to examine the Quran as it is - the oral recitation itself, the structure, the essence of the Message and so on. The answer I believe is there very clearly for anyone who seeks the answer from Allah. We just need to ask Allah.
If we take a look at Earth - there is a lot of corruption - and yet people continue to progress in terms of technology, there are increases in the population, Earth can withstand all of us in terms of resources and the demands we place on her. I mention this, because in the Quran it states that if Allah swt had not withheld some people from everything they want to do there would be even more corruption.
Ok so that's it for now, longer than I expected but there might actually be a bit more to be said! Anyway, Insha'Allah this can help you understand at least my take on things.
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ASAK,
Thanks all for the replies. It means a lot to me that you would all willingly construct such detailed posts in order to respond to me.
Therefore, the least thing we can do (as wise and pious Muslims) is to never question Him and trust in His righteous judgement.
we should question our own judgements and try our best to completely obey the commandements of our Exalted ONE Lord, ALLAH (SWT), as per the Qur'an.
Unfortunately, I cannot agree with these core points of your post, though I am happy that you have found an interpretation of god that suits you and makes you happy. I personally cannot tell myself that I simply have to submit to god's will in order to feel content, for I naturally question my beliefs and will continue to refine them until the day I die. I do not believe in blind acceptance - I can never submit myself without considering all possibilities that I have become aware of. I am unsure of the name of the philosopher who made this comment, but I hold steadfastly to the belief that the mark of a sound mind is one which can entertain an idea without accepting it.
I think God is running everything. Each one of us will eventually receive his own answers from Divinity when we let our intellectual pride go, and surrender to Peace. We came here on earth to amend our relationship with God and for atonement. There are many Paths, Islam being just one of them! Love is the key, together with thankfulness and quest for forgiveness.
There are some interesting threads here on this Forum, like
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604250.msg305283#msg305283
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315463#msg315463
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604655.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604076.0etc... and there are many more for you to find.
Do your own spiritual path and remember to take responsibility for your own soul.
May God bless you.
Thank you for the links, I looked through them and found them quite helpful. I don't have the time to sort through all of them right now (considering they are long threads), but I have attained a general idea of the contents of each one. You state that you believe that there are many paths to god, with Islam just being one of them. Do you then believe that the Qur'an is perfect, while it simultaneously states that those who believe in polytheism are destined for hell?
In terms of hell, this is a large topic and I can't do it justice here in terms of providing an explanation but I will try to get the main points down. You mentioned how our interpretations can be affected by our own attitudes and personalities - is this part of the Quran's test bringing out our character, we are learning alongside it? that's a side note - but so too can our understand of concepts like hell? Maybe people who have been through terrible loss and suffering on Earth at the hands on other people, can understand the dire warning of hell in a different way as they have seen that side of humans.
So essentially what you're saying is that we all get to choose what we believe heaven and hell to be? Do you believe that we are given the power to create our own afterlife, that it may be a reflection of what we believe on earth? This can be somewhat justified, based on the belief that we get whatever we want in heaven, but can we really choose our own hell? OR are you saying that we need to choose a certain type of hell so that we are able to make our way through this world?
I also think that the warning of hell is very clear in the way that it is so that no one can delude themselves into thinking that is doesn't matter what happens here. It may also be so that only the worst of the worst go to hell - I remember coming across a verse that stated that as well as that some may say that they will go back and do good but they don;t mean this. What this seems to be getting at is that some people don't really care. They may only say it when God is in front of them but apart from that as soon as they think God isn't in sight, they say and do something else entirely.
So another interpretation of hell is that it is there so that people are aware that they will eventually be held accountable for their deeds? Is it this way so that people understand the importance of doing good? I am in agreement with the belief that we will all be held accountable for our deeds, and that our natural inclination is towards good.
On the Day of Judgement, Prophet Jesus (5116-119) mentions to God that if God forgives those who took him and his mother for worship - then God is Most Wise. After this God does not state He will never forgive these particular individuals. God states people are rewarded for their truthfulness, and is it possible this means sincerity? I find that here there is a subtle point about shirk. That kafir is not simply disbeliever, I have seen this mentioned before, not sure if its on here but elsewhere. It relates more to the idea of being completely ungrateful, the idea that even when you know God exists, you don't care. Thus, if I recall correctly, Iblis is called a kafir, he knows God exists though.
So in this case, those sent to hell, are not just people who didn't believe because they lacked knowledge or were not entirely sure, they are people who were firstly persistently disobedient, take Iblis as the example here then look at how he did not ask for forgiveness from Allah. He did not care. He wanted to be at war with humanity out of arrogance, hate and malice. This is more than one who does not believe as we may usually think of it.
And the Quran states that those who believe in God, the last day - i.e. some form of justice that God will provide that these are believers, in one verse it mentions be they Jews, Christians, Sabeans - because its referring to the environment of the Arabs at the time/environment of the time.
There are also points in the Quran that state that if God knew any goodness in people, He would guide them. When an individual shows true compassion to others, I have seen this from "non-Muslims", are they being guided by God? I believe so. Are they monotheists? I don't know. Maybe God is guiding that individual, the way they need to be guided. I am not one to judge them. They may never call themselves Muslim, they may only ever call God the Creator. In any case, they would believe in and love their actual Creator which seems to be the whole point of avoiding shirk in the Quran But they are people who believe in central Islamic values, and behave according to them moreso than I have seen some Muslims do. Allah knows them best though and is the best Judge. However, I believe non-Muslims can be guided just as much as Muslims.
The Quran mentions that there are some people who may call themselves Muslim, but they do behave as Allah ask, and this is very simple, just be a decent human being and don't go and do deliberate evil knowingly etc then there can also be some who may not call themselves Muslim but what they do pleases Allah. So the 1 billion going to heaven - it isn't like this as far the Quran says from my reading. In fact, I think the Quran makes this point clear, i.e. its not of the more ambiguous verses.
So do you consider yourself a muslim even though you are taking a pretty radical approach to the interpretation of the Qur'an? What is the difference between arriving at these conclusions yourself versus finding these interpretations through a book which appears to state otherwise? I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm grilling you - I very much appreciate your response and would simply like to understand it better. What I'm ascertaining from your argument is that doing good, and not necessarily being faithful, is what will bring people to heaven and ultimate enlightenment - is that right?
I wouldn't call the Quran perfect. I believe only Allah swt is perfect. I would say the Quran is preserved. There are many ways to look at this, one might be to assess the nature of the oral recitation of the Quran, alongside the fact that now more so than ever in the past when scriptures were revealed, we have so many people reciting the Quran. Most are non-Arab, do not understand the Arabic and then on top of this there are ambiguous verses anyway where people don't know the meaning. and some argue that the poetry is not very good and the structure is apparently a "mess" and then these ambiguous verses where people can't semantically be sure what is being said, however we do not have variation that we would expect. We would expect that now, especially given the factors, amount of people reciting it, non-Arabs reciting it and plenty of converts over centuries by accident not even just deliberately. There are other things but I do not have time to go into it right now. I think you need to examine the Quran as it is - the oral recitation itself, the structure, the essence of the Message and so on. The answer I believe is there very clearly for anyone who seeks the answer from Allah. We just need to ask Allah.
So you state here that the Qur'an is not perfect, but that we must still look towards the Qur'an for guidance. Are you choosing the parts of the Qur'an that you believe in, based on what you know intuitively to be right and wrong? Am I allowed to focus only on the parts of the Qur'an which have positive messages, and assume that I either do not fully understand or do not agree with the parts that go against what I believe is right/wrong?
If we take a look at Earth - there is a lot of corruption - and yet people continue to progress in terms of technology, there are increases in the population, Earth can withstand all of us in terms of resources and the demands we place on her. I mention this, because in the Quran it states that if Allah swt had not withheld some people from everything they want to do there would be even more corruption.
I'm sorry - I don't quite understand why you put this point here. Are you stating that god's grace keeps the world running despite the amount of corruption that is possible in the world? It's possible then that this is god's method of intervening with the world, a possible sign that god is in existence for those who don't believe in Him?
Thank you all for your replies. I guess what I'm starting to realize is that while I agree with many points of the Qur'an and the presence of Islam has shaped a large part of my life and the beliefs that I have, I do not agree with all of the points in the Qur'an - those that encourage wrath over forgiveness. It's possible that I've misinterpreted these verses, that they really do mean something else, and that I've taken the wrong translation, but translating a given verse is always so subjective in the end that I don't think translating these verses is even necessary. For now I will say that I believe in the divinity of the Qur'an, but I don't believe that its translated form, as I have read it, is at all perfect. I believe that being a good human, who is as good as possible both towards himself and others, is the key to following god. I believe it is my duty to reflect's god character of being good as often as possible, and that perhaps one of the best ways to really worship god is to be happy and to make others happy through my happiness.
Look at all of the happenings in Boston right now. Look at what muslim extremists have done on 9/11. Look at what extremists from any religion have done over the thousands of years that these dogmas have been created, when all we really needed to do was to look at the fundamentals of these religions to understand the most important points ? love, compassion, and mercy.
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Peace,
The Quran tells you to forgive rather than show your wrath, you have misunderstood the scripture.
I think there are many misunderstandings both with the Quran and your idea of God's religion which is not restricted to one religion.
It is a way of life, your behavior will determine your chances of reaching Paradise.
God bless you
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Welcome bro Faithful )
Hopefully you get blessing from God by study Holy Kitab (Quran)
O yeah I want ask you, Is it true in the 9/11 tragedy, all the jews in the WTC were survived?
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Hell is not everlasting, Paradise is not everlasting. Qur'an mus be tired of repeating that destiny is God, that we will return to Him. God is beyond Hell nd Paradise and it is to Him that we will return, be it via sirat al mustaqim, be it sirat el magdub 3alahim be it sirat el addallin. We all will return to Him, but the point is which way. It is not the same thing to go back home having a nice trip than to go back home and beeing kidnapped in the way, then raped, then beaten up, then tortured, then... or two wander endlessly lost turning ever around and never knowing where you are and in danger of many things.
And yes, we should not worry, God is The Just, He will make everything up. Even if we suffer a time will come when we will be grateful for having suffered because we will see, that the suffering brought us closer to Him. That is the gist of why those who die fisabil Allah meet Him right away, because that is a suffering with a meaning, that suffering is the source of much good. We suffer more when we do not find the meaning of our suffering. We suffer like real idiots.
Salaam
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Peace,
The Quran tells you to forgive rather than show your wrath, you have misunderstood the scripture.
I think there are many misunderstandings both with the Quran and your idea of God's religion which is not restricted to one religion.
It is a way of life, your behavior will determine your chances of reaching Paradise.
God bless you
I know that the core points of the Qur'an represent ideals of forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy. It is these parts of the Qur'an that I intend to focus on, rather than the points concerning the fates of the nonbelievers or whatnot. If this is also a misunderstood area of the scripture in that the translation has been widely falsified, my ideal holds the same. I cannot hope to discover every potential translation of every word. Instead, I intend to use the themes of the religion that are positive in nature to guide me, for those themes should be immediately accessible to all those reading them. I also agree that God is not restricted to one religion. I find that he is present in many forms, and that each of us find our own path to god through different ways and slightly differing ideas that are actually quite alike on the whole.
O yeah I want ask you, Is it true in the 9/11 tragedy, all the jews in the WTC were survived?
I'm unsure, and don't quite understand how that's relevant. Thousands of other innocent people died, even if all the jews did survive. Each one is equal and has the same right to life.
Hell is not everlasting, Paradise is not everlasting. Qur'an mus be tired of repeating that destiny is God, that we will return to Him. God is beyond Hell nd Paradise and it is to Him that we will return, be it via sirat al mustaqim, be it sirat el magdub 3alahim be it sirat el addallin. We all will return to Him, but the point is which way. It is not the same thing to go back home having a nice trip than to go back home and beeing kidnapped in the way, then raped, then beaten up, then tortured, then... or two wander endlessly lost turning ever around and never knowing where you are and in danger of many things.
And yes, we should not worry, God is The Just, He will make everything up. Even if we suffer a time will come when we will be grateful for having suffered because we will see, that the suffering brought us closer to Him. That is the gist of why those who die fisabil Allah meet Him right away, because that is a suffering with a meaning, that suffering is the source of much good. We suffer more when we do not find the meaning of our suffering. We suffer like real idiots.
Salaam
I don't quite understand what you believe heaven or hell is, but I find it interesting. I also don't understand the meaning behind your "return home" analogy. Can you expand on these things? You state that some people will meet him right away while others are delayed. Why is this? I believe that we all will be judged in that final hour.
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So essentially what you're saying is that we all get to choose what we believe heaven and hell to be? Do you believe that we are given the power to create our own afterlife, that it may be a reflection of what we believe on earth? This can be somewhat justified, based on the belief that we get whatever we want in heaven, but can we really choose our own hell? OR are you saying that we need to choose a certain type of hell so that we are able to make our way through this world?
Salaam,
We may be able to choose what Heaven is - to an extent, the Quran mentions that people in heaven have what they wish and then there is even more with Allah. That no-one has seen some of the things that await. The descriptions of heaven and hell put them within our understanding, but in terms of heaven there is a sense that it is only just the beginning and there is so much more to it than we can imagine. That could be one of the points about heaven, limitless opportunities. I think hell is a difficult one to describe - it describes it in a physical way, almost to get the message across very clearly. It is physical, is it on a different level of existence, is it metaphorical? Is it all of those things at the same time? Is hell the reality that people who rejected all that was good and didn't even care for goodness, possibly some of the types of people that others begged Allah for protection FROM? Right now they can pretend like what they are doing is ok, although I think everyone knows really, but hell is the reality of all their deeds? Like a metaphor for those deeds? It can be interpreted that way.
So another interpretation of hell is that it is there so that people are aware that they will eventually be held accountable for their deeds? Is it this way so that people understand the importance of doing good? I am in agreement with the belief that we will all be held accountable for our deeds, and that our natural inclination is towards good.
Yes, this is definitely a strong aspect of the clear and vivid description of hell. Its like there can be no confusion about it, and I think the essence of the message to avoid this is to simply try and do good. It's very straightforward, I believe we were born doing it. Like you said, its natural but when people think they can make a grab for whatever they want without regard for anyone else, and destroy so much, then I think they turn away from this. Of course, everyone can always turn back. Look at the example of Pharoah, a tyrant who called himself a god. He was old at the time Moses came back to him as an adult to tell him the message and Pharaoh was still given plenty of opportunity to make the smallest steps towards doing what was better. He deliberately chose not to. Allah swt was ready to forgive all Pharoah did if only he started to do something better, it was up to Pharoah.
So do you consider yourself a muslim even though you are taking a pretty radical approach to the interpretation of the Qur'an? What is the difference between arriving at these conclusions yourself versus finding these interpretations through a book which appears to state otherwise? I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm grilling you - I very much appreciate your response and would simply like to understand it better. What I'm ascertaining from your argument is that doing good, and not necessarily being faithful, is what will bring people to heaven and ultimate enlightenment - is that right?
I do consider myself a Muslim and I wouldn't call my approach radical, other people have somewhat similar conclusions on some of these things. Quran only Muslims existed in the past, especially at the start of this whole journey and inception of the Quran. Some were persecuted, and there may be more than we realise but they live all over the world as well as many people who still believe in their Creator but don't subscribe to a religion. I've heard this quite a few times.
I don't mind your questions at all, I know I ask questions of others and just questions in general as well as a way to understand better. I've actually enjoyed answering these. I hope I'm helping in some way.
I think doing good is part of being faithful to Allah. It says in the Quran that those who believe do good not even for a thank you but because Allah asks that they do it and they know that it is good and Allah asks for goodness. After all, what is heaven if it is not good? And as it states in the Quran, isn't the reward for good only ever good itself?
Arriving at conclusions yourself is based on the idea that it is God who gives us knowledge, so we turn to Him and refrain from taking others judgements in place of the knowledge Allah would give us. they could be right, if they are, we will be guided that way. When studying the Quran, I don't consult any other books. I may look at some perspectives here and there but I just like to keep it very simple and call upon Allah. I find that I stumble across verses after reading them previously and they answer questions I had, highlight problems with the translation because of the meaning conveyed and the fact it does not fit the transliteration - e.g. when Satan is used instead of Iblis in the translation I feel like we shouldn't try to get a "hold of" the Quran. It's message comes into the light and together as we continue to read it. It seems to be a continual work in progress and in that way its like its a companion along with us on this journey we call life.
So you state here that the Qur'an is not perfect, but that we must still look towards the Qur'an for guidance. Are you choosing the parts of the Qur'an that you believe in, based on what you know intuitively to be right and wrong? Am I allowed to focus only on the parts of the Qur'an which have positive messages, and assume that I either do not fully understand or do not agree with the parts that go against what I believe is right/wrong?
Well, I'm avoiding the word perfect as it may give the wrong impression but I do believe the Quran is complete and our guidance. That doesn't mean I don't think that there isn't wisdom to be found elsewhere and that other methods and practices should be dismissed, as long as it doesn't contradict the Quran and you aren't saying it is from Allah but that it works for you - then sure people can go for that as it works for them on an individual basis.
the Quran says "And follow the best of what was revealed to you from your Lord before the punishment comes upon you suddenly while you do not perceive,Lest a soul should say, "Oh my regret over what I neglected in regard to Allah and that I was among the mockers."" (3955-56) Although the translation can be lacking at times and miss some nuance (I believe Allah will guide people towards that type of knowledge regardless of this and whether they know detailed Arabic or not) the central meaning of the verse can be conveyed through it.
So according to this verse, yes you focus on the understanding in the translation, Arabic transliteration - if you use it - as best you can and follow the best of it. My approach is to follow what I do know to be intuitively right, as God graces all of us with this type of understanding and that I leave what the verses that I do not fully understand that fall outside of that category, and it could be that we don't need to try to understand it all of it, just to do what we can by Allah's guidance.
I'm sorry - I don't quite understand why you put this point here. Are you stating that god's grace keeps the world running despite the amount of corruption that is possible in the world? It's possible then that this is god's method of intervening with the world, a possible sign that god is in existence for those who don't believe in Him?
It can be a sign for those who already believe in the sense they perceive Allah's Mercy in this way. I don't know if it will be something that someone who does not believe will wish to take on board. The very fact that we have all the skills, resources, ability to interpret what we need to know and to find the knowledge in the natural and human world that we need - the way all of this comes together even though we have a lot of limitations is a remarkable thing.
Thank you all for your replies. I guess what I'm starting to realize is that while I agree with many points of the Qur'an and the presence of Islam has shaped a large part of my life and the beliefs that I have, I do not agree with all of the points in the Qur'an - those that encourage wrath over forgiveness. It's possible that I've misinterpreted these verses, that they really do mean something else, and that I've taken the wrong translation, but translating a given verse is always so subjective in the end that I don't think translating these verses is even necessary. For now I will say that I believe in the divinity of the Qur'an, but I don't believe that its translated form, as I have read it, is at all perfect. I believe that being a good human, who is as good as possible both towards himself and others, is the key to following god. I believe it is my duty to reflect's god character of being good as often as possible, and that perhaps one of the best ways to really worship god is to be happy and to make others happy through my happiness.
Look at all of the happenings in Boston right now. Look at what muslim extremists have done on 9/11. Look at what extremists from any religion have done over the thousands of years that these dogmas have been created, when all we really needed to do was to look at the fundamentals of these religions to understand the most important points ? love, compassion, and mercy.
the Quran does emphasis forgiveness. For example, Those who avoid the greater crimes and shameful deeds, and, when they are angry even then forgive (4237). Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned. (4514)
I'm not sure if I've heard someone say the translation is perfect - it is an interpretation by another person. You can compare a lot of translations on one website, which is a helpful tool to use when studying the Quran. http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/default.htm You may have already come across this. I think if you believe that doing good in order to please God, because you know its right and being sincere to Him is central, then you definitely understand the core concept of the Quran and Islam.
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peace faithful, all,
At the same time, I am afraid. I am afraid because I have been told that the more my mind wanders and the more I start to logically approach these things based on the way my mind challenges what I believe, the more god decides to lead me astray. I don?t want to believe that my god would abandon me simply for reconsidering what I believe to be my religion, but I cannot pretend to ignore these burning questions.
I dont recall The Quran being negative on reflection, seeking the truth, questioning and weighing of evidence, reasoning etc. I recommend the book "logic, rhetoric, and legal reasoning in quran" and also
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htmI have always found it funny how certain religious people (for lack of a better term) imply it is best to suppress what differentiates us from all other animals and arguably is the greatest gift to humanity, in order to find God, the Creator who gave us this gift. Does this make sense to you?
My main questions can be summed up in this way
Based off of what I have just written, am I still a Muslim?
You may be misunderstanding the term you are using, see
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htmWhat proof can I have, both emotionally and logically, that the Qur?an is perfect?
I recommend reading it. "perfect" is a strong word - and of course, when someone says something is "perfect" the obvious question becomes "perfect with regards to what?".
Should I believe that the Qur?an is perfect?
Perhaps, but I prefer to get back to the basics and ask myself how does one verify a truth? If you buy a desk with assembly instructions, how does one verify the guidance received with the desk is correct/truthful?
If god is good, merciful, and all-powerful, why are there so many references to wrath and hell in the Qur?an? Why is it that good people must go to hell simply because they don?t have a very specific belief of what god is?
Good questions. Let us know what you find in Quran regarding this.
To end, I think my favourite verse in The Quran is apt
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
All the best in your journey.
-
Peace faithful,
I do not find Quran a scary book where God threatens everyone with Hell. I must be reading another book.
I am glad God sent the Quran as a blessing to be a guide to mankind. It makes life a lot easier since you have the answer keys in it. I was a Believer before I encountered Quran, but it makes it a lot easier now.
Remember, God's words are not forcing you to things but simply recommend you to a certain behavior. I am not that intimidated by what God writes about Hell although I remind myself of the dangers of being unrighteous sometimes.
The promises of Heaven are quite nice to read about and that God made the religion pretty easy without a lot of strange rituals and so on.
That is why I feel you must be reading another book.
God bless you
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I don't quite understand what you believe heaven or hell is, but I find it interesting. I also don't understand the meaning behind your "return home" analogy. Can you expand on these things? You state that some people will meet him right away while others are delayed. Why is this? I believe that we all will be judged in that final hour.
Well hell and paradise are described in figurative terms in the Qur'an. We do not have any other description except that it will not things which are completely unknown to us as the Qur'an says. Hell must be a hell of rage for instance, for those who are prone to rage. They will experience it till they are cleansed of it, one can figure, for instance. Paradise the Qur'an says will fulfill our longings.
The return home was merely an allegorical description of a return to God not by siratalmustaqim but through another of the three ways described in sura Fatiha, it says "guide us in the straight way up not in the way of those on whom rage was nor through the path of those who strayed. So I made two little projections of the two last ways as metaphors, like when you say somebody has pearls meaning teeth. Nothing more.
I do not hink I asserted that some people will meet him right away, because I do not know that, but the shuhadaa, I can't remember the exact quoting in the Qur'an it says that they do not die but are with God.
On the other hand, really this straight away or the final hour, what is that? Will there be time after death. God is not bound by time. It doesn't matter a t all whther we say staright away or for an eternity, those are human understandings for humans who live constricted to time and space. God is not constricted by that, the straight away or the final hour you say can be at the same, can be all the time, because for God there is no timeor all the time is there all the time. For humans once we die, I suppose that for martyrs there may be no time, may be they escape time straight away, may be those who live in hell there is still the time and they feel its passing in their suffering. Or they feel the judgement instantly and feel the hell last, and last, I do not know, but I do not think that by God there are dates and durations, that is what He uses to talk to us who are bound by time and duration.
Salaam
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Peace,
Because of certain verses it seems that some people go straight to Heaven. I think it is the elite of the elite who go there right away. You have a sign of it in the verse where one dies and says while he is in Heaven "Oh, I wish my friends knew about this". This was the voice of a man who was very righteous in this life.
Remember there are two levels of Heaven, one high and one low. The best of the best seem to acquire their position in higher Heaven immediately when they die.
Those who go to lower Heaven or Hell get their record in their hands, which implies that they are present on the Judgment Day to be judged and they can logically not be in Heaven already and thus resurrected.
However, high Heaven people are also present to witness Judgment Day, but they only give some testimonies, unless the writings of Quran are only allegorical. They have their place already according to what I stated above.
These are speculations I have out of the Quranic passages and is part of my philosophies regarding this topic. But I think I am somewhat right as it is based upon what I understood in the Light of Quran.
Anyway, hope my words were appreciated. God knows the absolute Truth.
God bless you
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For some reason the forum software has a glitch where in rare cases someone posts it does not actually show in the thread but does show in the posts the user has made on their profile. I've not noticed this before but we are looking into it.
The reason I noticed it was that I posted in this thread but it did now show. The post can be found on "show posts" on my profile, copied below
peace faithful, all,
Quote from Faithful. on April 18, 2013, 082443 PM
At the same time, I am afraid. I am afraid because I have been told that the more my mind wanders and the more I start to logically approach these things based on the way my mind challenges what I believe, the more god decides to lead me astray. I don?t want to believe that my god would abandon me simply for reconsidering what I believe to be my religion, but I cannot pretend to ignore these burning questions.I dont recall The Quran being negative on reflection, seeking the truth, questioning and weighing of evidence, reasoning etc. I recommend the book "logic, rhetoric, and legal reasoning in quran" and also
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htmI have always found it funny how certain religious people (for lack of a better term) imply it is best to suppress what differentiates us from all other animals and arguably is the greatest gift to humanity, in order to find God, the Creator who gave us this gift. Does this make sense to you?
Quote
My main questions can be summed up in this way
Based off of what I have just written, am I still a Muslim?You may be misunderstanding the term you are using, see
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htmQuote
What proof can I have, both emotionally and logically, that the Qur?an is perfect?I recommend reading it. "perfect" is a strong word - and of course, when someone says something is "perfect" the obvious question becomes "perfect with regards to what?".
Quote
Should I believe that the Qur?an is perfect?Perhaps, but I prefer to get back to the basics and ask myself how does one verify a truth? If you buy a desk with assembly instructions, how does one verify the guidance received with the desk is correct/truthful?
Quote
If god is good, merciful, and all-powerful, why are there so many references to wrath and hell in the Qur?an? Why is it that good people must go to hell simply because they don?t have a very specific belief of what god is?Good questions. Let us know what you find in Quran regarding this.
To end, I think my favourite verse in The Quran is apt
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
All the best in your journey.
-
ASAK,
Sorry for the wait in my reply. I have finals coming up soon.
Salaam,
I think hell is a difficult one to describe - it describes it in a physical way, almost to get the message across very clearly. It is physical, is it on a different level of existence, is it metaphorical? Is it all of those things at the same time? Is hell the reality that people who rejected all that was good and didn't even care for goodness, possibly some of the types of people that others begged Allah for protection FROM?
I guess that's a different way to look at it. I agree that hell could be described/alluded to as often as it is so that the reader of the Qur'an can never tell himself that he can do bad things as he pleases and still believe that he will have his heaven of choice and more. From this section and from your responses to nearly all of my questions, I see that you make a point to address the holistic aspects of each concept to the book's generalized meaning rather than singly take out an ayah. Perhaps this is a reason why some people believe the Qur'an to be contradictory; rather, it would make more sense to understand the theme involved.
Its like there can be no confusion about it, and I think the essence of the message to avoid this is to simply try and do good. It's very straightforward, I believe we were born doing it. Like you said, its natural but when people think they can make a grab for whatever they want without regard for anyone else, and destroy so much, then I think they turn away from this.
I have a question for you here. I understand that this isn't a direct or easy question to answer, but I must ask it anyway. A thought experiment. Let us assume that there is a man who is imperfect in slight ways, but who is, on the whole, a remarkable man. A person who donates large portions of his salary to the poor, ensures that his family is happy and functioning well, and also works to keep himself happy. He is atheist, but he does not antagonize those with religion or theistic beliefs. I'm not going to ask you if he goes to hell or heaven, because that's a question no one can really answer. My question is this Is this man still a follower of the general principles of Islam even if he doesn't believe in a deity? Can one make the presumption that anyone who does good is a follower of god's religion?
I do consider myself a Muslim and I wouldn't call my approach radical, other people have somewhat similar conclusions on some of these things. Quran only Muslims existed in the past, especially at the start of this whole journey and inception of the Quran. Some were persecuted, and there may be more than we realise but they live all over the world as well as many people who still believe in their Creator but don't subscribe to a religion. I've heard this quite a few times.
I guess I just can't help but consider it radical because so many of your views echo my own...and from the perspective of many of the muslims I've grown up with/currently know, my approach would be considered radical. It's good to hear that I may be a muslim after all. I think the problem is that I was always taught that the most important thing was to certify that I was muslim, which constantly placed pressure on me to subconsciously (and sometimes, consciously) place a barrier between my people (muslims) and others (non-muslims, Americans, etc.). You mention that you've heard of many people who don't necessarily subscribe to a religion but follow their Creator regardless. Perhaps I am somewhat of a hybrid. I will never be a "muslim" as most people in my family are. I don't think it matters now that I am "muslim" or just someone who believes in god. The labels cannot define what I believe, and add little to my relationship with god.
I don't mind your questions at all, I know I ask questions of others and just questions in general as well as a way to understand better. I've actually enjoyed answering these. I hope I'm helping in some way. )
You're helping a lot, thanks for answering!
Arriving at conclusions yourself is based on the idea that it is God who gives us knowledge, so we turn to Him and refrain from taking others judgements in place of the knowledge Allah would give us. they could be right, if they are, we will be guided that way. When studying the Quran, I don't consult any other books. I may look at some perspectives here and there but I just like to keep it very simple and call upon Allah... It seems to be a continual work in progress and in that way its like its a companion along with us on this journey we call life.
It's hard to accept that I won't have it completely figured out before I turn twenty, but I think I also need to realize it's normal to not have it all figured out just yet. A simple approach, I too, believe is the best one. That is another issue I had with the way I was taught my religion - too many rules that were never mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an that just made religion a burden rather than a source of guidance.
My approach is to follow what I do know to be intuitively right, as God graces all of us with this type of understanding and that I leave what the verses that I do not fully understand that fall outside of that category, and it could be that we don't need to try to understand it all of it, just to do what we can by Allah's guidance.
If you follow what you know intuitively to be right, do you follow some restrictions in the Qur'an that aren't core to the faith but exist anyway? I'm talking about smaller things like eating food slaughtered in the 'halal' way, etc. I ask because I hold onto some of these things that I used to do before I started asking questions but now need to wonder if I'm restricting myself for no reason. I don't feel like eating meat slaughtered the 'halal' way adds anything to my faith in god, but I won't stop eating this way until I have good rationale to stop. Of course it's not just halal food - there are plenty of little things that I now must question instead of blindly accepting.
the Quran does emphasis forgiveness. For example, Those who avoid the greater crimes and shameful deeds, and, when they are angry even then forgive (4237). Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned. (4514)
Small ayahs like these are examples of what I would say are affirming for me personally on the subject of Qur'an and god.
I think if you believe that doing good in order to please God, because you know its right and being sincere to Him is central, then you definitely understand the core concept of the Quran and Islam.
I believe that I am understanding now, too. Thank you for all your help.
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Peace faithful,
I am glad God sent the Quran as a blessing to be a guide to mankind. It makes life a lot easier since you have the answer keys in it. I was a Believer before I encountered Quran, but it makes it a lot easier now.
Remember, God's words are not forcing you to things but simply recommend you to a certain behavior. I am not that intimidated by what God writes about Hell although I remind myself of the dangers of being unrighteous sometimes.
The promises of Heaven are quite nice to read about and that God made the religion pretty easy without a lot of strange rituals and so on.
That's a better way to look at it, I think. If we view god's word as recommendations rather than forced obligation, it becomes much easier to grasp. At the end of the day, it can't be something that's forced on us. God gave us free will, even if he did also give us the Qur'an. At the end of the day, what we choose to follow/believe is our own decision. And I agree, I've never been a fan of superstition and I think a lot of problem with different religious sects appearing and whatnot can be attributed to superstition of some kind.
Peace,
Because of certain verses it seems that some people go straight to Heaven. I think it is the elite of the elite who go there right away. You have a sign of it in the verse where one dies and says while he is in Heaven "Oh, I wish my friends knew about this". This was the voice of a man who was very righteous in this life.
Remember there are two levels of Heaven, one high and one low. The best of the best seem to acquire their position in higher Heaven immediately when they die.
Those who go to lower Heaven or Hell get their record in their hands, which implies that they are present on the Judgment Day to be judged and they can logically not be in Heaven already and thus resurrected.
However, high Heaven people are also present to witness Judgment Day, but they only give some testimonies, unless the writings of Quran are only allegorical. They have their place already according to what I stated above.
These are speculations I have out of the Quranic passages and is part of my philosophies regarding this topic. But I think I am somewhat right as it is based upon what I understood in the Light of Quran.
Anyway, hope my words were appreciated. God knows the absolute Truth.
God bless you
This is a take I was considering as well. I considered that perhaps people who were good, but not incredible, would be forgiven by god on judgment day, after they received just treatment for whatever they did in their lives. I think it's important to note that we will be held accountable one day, but also to keep in mind that god is merciful. In the end we can never be 100% sure, but we must rest on the principles that god is good, yet just.
Well hell and paradise are described in figurative terms in the Qur'an. We do not have any other description except that it will not things which are completely unknown to us as the Qur'an says. Hell must be a hell of rage for instance, for those who are prone to rage. They will experience it till they are cleansed of it, one can figure, for instance. Paradise the Qur'an says will fulfill our longings.
What you are stating, then, is an example of the mercy of god. He would place individuals into hell in order that they may be cleansed of their deficiencies, so that they are clear when they enter heaven. Hell, in that sense, is not even a period of suffering as much as it is a time of regrowth.
The return home was merely an allegorical description of a return to God not by siratalmustaqim but through another of the three ways described in sura Fatiha, it says "guide us in the straight way up not in the way of those on whom rage was nor through the path of those who strayed. So I made two little projections of the two last ways as metaphors, like when you say somebody has pearls meaning teeth. Nothing more.
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean about interpreting the last two ways as metaphors. Could you elaborate?
I do not hink I asserted that some people will meet him right away, because I do not know that, but the shuhadaa, I can't remember the exact quoting in the Qur'an it says that they do not die but are with God.
On the other hand, really this straight away or the final hour, what is that? Will there be time after death. God is not bound by time. It doesn't matter a t all whther we say staright away or for an eternity, those are human understandings for humans who live constricted to time and space. God is not constricted by that, the straight away or the final hour you say can be at the same, can be all the time, because for God there is no timeor all the time is there all the time. For humans once we die, I suppose that for martyrs there may be no time, may be they escape time straight away, may be those who live in hell there is still the time and they feel its passing in their suffering. Or they feel the judgement instantly and feel the hell last, and last, I do not know, but I do not think that by God there are dates and durations, that is what He uses to talk to us who are bound by time and duration.
Hell and heaven can be something completely different from what we know here on earth - the reality we have here. But I think that even if god isn't bound by the rules of time, we as humans are, and as a result, eternity does mean something to us (so long as we are cognitive enough to experience it). That is the issue I have with hell, is that an eternity of hell is unfathomable yet also incredibly dreadful.
I dont recall The Quran being negative on reflection, seeking the truth, questioning and weighing of evidence, reasoning etc. I recommend the book "logic, rhetoric, and legal reasoning in quran" and also
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htmThanks for the link, I plan to look into it as soon as possible!
I have always found it funny how certain religious people (for lack of a better term) imply it is best to suppress what differentiates us from all other animals and arguably is the greatest gift to humanity, in order to find God, the Creator who gave us this gift. Does this make sense to you?
No, it's the main issue I had which kept me from questioning for so long. I believe that god gave us free will and awareness for a reason, and that we should not suppress our intellectual capacities from providing us with a better sense of faith.
Quote
What proof can I have, both emotionally and logically, that the Qur?an is perfect?I recommend reading it. "perfect" is a strong word - and of course, when someone says something is "perfect" the obvious question becomes "perfect with regards to what?".
Perhaps, but I prefer to get back to the basics and ask myself how does one verify a truth? If you buy a desk with assembly instructions, how does one verify the guidance received with the desk is correct/truthful?
Quote
If god is good, merciful, and all-powerful, why are there so many references to wrath and hell in the Qur?an? Why is it that good people must go to hell simply because they don?t have a very specific belief of what god is?Good questions. Let us know what you find in Quran regarding this.
To end, I think my favourite verse in The Quran is apt
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
All the best in your journey.
Yes, it's true that although I have read the translation of the Qur'an before, it was not with a clear mind that I did so. I must revisit the Qur'an so that I have a better grasp of the general themes/lessons conveyed. The ayah is nice, and it's one that I actually reference somewhat often to myself if I ever have wavering faith in the existence of god.
Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful responses. I can't tell you all how much it means to me that there are people out there who come from the same/similar background as me and are able to provide me with rational, kind answers that help me better understand the Truth. I feel much more calm now than I did back when I made my original post, and much of that has come from the fantastic help I receive on this forum.
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Peace faithful,
I just wanted to add that I think the description of Hell is quite allegorical. It will most likely be a miserable place under poor living conditions with bad food/drink and it is never a comfortable temperature, either too hot or too cold.
Could Hell be the remnants of the old world? After God has wreaked havoc on it and left it destroyed?
Well, I doubt we want to risk going there in the next life anyhow.
God bless you
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Peace faithful,
I just wanted to add that I think the description of Hell is quite allegorical. It will most likely be a miserable place under poor living conditions with bad food/drink and it is never a comfortable temperature, either too hot or too cold.
Could Hell be the remnants of the old world? After God has wreaked havoc on it and left it destroyed?
Well, I doubt we want to risk going there in the next life anyhow.
God bless you
I agree, I wouldn't want to risk going there either, regardless of what it is. If heaven is to be "good" in its most pure form, then hell is the opposite, and there are no people who would be willing to say that they would ever go there, given the choice. Hell seems a bit more graphic as it is described in the Qur'an at some points. Are there any passages in the Qur'an that you can find that you think match this description of hell? Or is this some conclusion you've arrived at on your own?
Peace Faithful.,
Do you believe in heaven or hell?
I do, I believe in both. I believe in the eternity of heaven, but I have a hard time grasping the concept of eternal hell. For me, it just seems that any action done in the average 80-year lifespan of a human is inconsequential in comparison to infinite time, a concept that is difficult to grasp in and of itself. I also believe that those who do good, regardless of their religion, faith, or belief in god should go to heaven. This doesn't mean that I am trying to dictate whether or not certain people go to heaven or certain people go to hell. It's just that I have a hard time accepting a very graphic representation of hell as being provided by a merciful god. I believe that god is just, and that for that reason, people need to be punished to an extent.
I guess I want to believe that hell is a clinic rather than a prison.
In my post replying to suppotpeacenotwar, I posted a simple thought experiment concerning an atheist. I would love it if you replied to it as well.
