Rome - Surat Ar- Rum
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I have been reading the Quran and understood the 2nd verse of Chapter Ar-Rum as "Rome has been defeated", but I read the Monotheist Translation of Quran and i noticed the translation as totally opposite meaning as "Romans have won!!!!!" , Meaning of "Ghulibat" is "overcame" as a passive verb. How it is translated as " Won" here? can anyone please clear me in this? any Historical/Grammatical explanations?
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Salam..
It depends on how you accentuate the Arabic letters (the dialectic marks).
If you read it as GHULIBAT, it will mean "they are defeated"
If you read it as GHALABAT, it will say the opposite "they have won".
Remember that the earliest Quran manuscripts did not have any dialelctic marks. These were added during the 9th Century AD by mostly Persian scholars. This is why some modern scholars are calling for the return of the text to its original (unaccentuated) form, and trying to deduce the correct way to read it from the context of the passage.
Regards.
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I have been reading the Quran and understood the 2nd verse of Chapter Ar-Rum as "Rome has been defeated", but I read the Monotheist Translation of Quran and i noticed the translation as totally opposite meaning as "Romans have won!!!!!" , Meaning of "Ghulibat" is "overcame" as a passive verb. How it is translated as " Won" here? can anyone please clear me in this? any Historical/Grammatical explanations?
You need to listen to the recitation of The Qur'aan to find your answer. I'm saying this because, The Qur?aan as it is defined by its name; is a reading, not writing. What I mean is, unlike the Moses?s book which was given to him in writing (7145), The Qur?aan was given to Mohammad by being read to him and in turn it was read to the people by Mohammad, pbuh (7516-19). Afterwards, The Qur?aan was being memorized by people close to the Prophet (2949). In fact, this is the way The Qur?aan has been completely preserved, i.e. by being MEMORIZED continuously through time by countless people all over the world (159). Unlike the written versions of The Qur?aan, there is only ONE version of The recited Qur?aan. Actually, all written ones try their best to be the exact copy of the recited ONE. From here, and for the mere sake of portability, we see that gradually, diacritical marks/signs come into existence and evolve over time. The diacritical have made their appearance into the text of The Qur?aan started with the oldest manuscripts, i.e. the first century, and gradually got evolved into what we have on hand today.
Peace,
Khalil -
Surat Ar-Rum (Romans) begins by noting the recent "defeat of the Romans" by the Persians. This defeat posed a significant theological and sociological problem for the early Muslim community because the Christian Byzantines were considered People of the Book, that is, Monotheists, while the Persians who defeated them were considered idolators, or polytheists. The surah is in part a response to the silly non-Muslim Meccans who took this victory as a sign that traditional polytheism would win out over monotheism. In the third and fourth ayat, the Muslim community is promised that the Byzantines will reverse their defeat into a victory "in a few years' time"... The Persian defeat of Byzantines was between 614 (see Siege of Jerusalem) and the Byzantines striking back victory over Persians in 622 (see Battle of Issus). The peace negotiations, which are how we would normally term winning and the end of a conflict, are dated as 629. Details below.
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These verses were revealed around 620, almost 7 years after the Persians had severely defeated Christian Byzantium in 613-14. In fact, Byzantium had suffered such heavy losses that it seemed impossible for it even to survive, let alone be victorious again. Following their defeat of the Byzantines at Antioch in 613, the Persians seized control of Damascus, Cilicia, Tarsus, Armenia, and Jerusalem. The loss of Jerusalem in 614 was particularly traumatic for the Byzantines, for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed and the Persians seized the "True Cross," the symbol of Christianity.
In addition, the Avars, Slavs, and Lombards also were posing serious threats to the Byzantine Empire. The Avars had reached as far as the walls of Constantinople. Emperor Heraclius ordered the gold and silver in churches to be melted and turned into money in order to meet the army's expenses. When this proved insufficient, bronze statues were melted down in order to mint more money. Many governors had revolted against Heraclius, and Byzantium was on the point of collapse. Mesopotamia, Cilicia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Armenia, which had earlier belonged to Byzantium, were invaded by the idolatrous Persians.
http//p2alm.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/middle-eastern-gentiles-razing-jerusalem.jpg
In short, everyone was expecting Byzantium to be destroyed. But during this time, the first verses of Surat ar-Rum were revealed, announcing that Byzantium would triumph in a few years. This predicted victory seemed so impossible that the Arab polytheists thought it would never come true. Like all the other predictions in the Qur'an, however, this one also came true. In 622, Heraclius gained a number of victories over the Persians and conquered Armenia. In December 627, the two empires fought a decisive battle at Nineveh, some 50 kilometres east of the Tigris river, near Baghdad. This time too, the Byzantine army defeated the Persians. A few months later, the Persians had to sue for peace with Byzantium, which obliged them to return the territories they had taken from it.
The Byzantine victory was completed when Emperor Heraclius defeated the Persian ruler Khosrow II in 630, recaptured Jerusalem, and regained the "True Cross" for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In the end, "the victory of the Romans" proclaimed by ALLAH (SWT) in the Qur'an came true.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Byzantine-persian_campaigns_611-624-mohammad_adil_rais.PNG/800px-Byzantine-persian_campaigns_611-624-mohammad_adil_rais.PNG
Another miracle revealed in these verses is the clear announcement of a geographical fact that could not have been known by anyone at that time that the Romans had been defeated in the lowest region of Earth. This Arabic expression adna al-Ard is interpreted as "a nearby place" in many tafssirs and translations. However, this is not the literal meaning, but rather a figurative interpretation. The word adna, derived from the word dani (low), means the lowest. The word ard can mean both "the land" or the Earth. Therefore, adna al-ard means "the lowest land on Earth." Some interpreters of the Qur'an, considering the closeness of the region in question to the Arabs, prefer the "closest" meaning of the word. However, the actual meaning indicates a very important geological fact The Dead Sea, one of the regions in which the Byzantines were defeated in 613-14, is the lowest region on Earth. And as stated earlier, for Christian Byzantium, the loss of the True Cross was the heaviest blow in that defeat in Jerusalem, located near the shores of the Dead Sea.
http//www.kaheel7.com/userimages/021548996320.JPG
In the image above we see the lowest elevation on the Earth's surface on dry land. This where the Romans got defeated.
The Byzantines and the Persians fought at the Dead Sea basin, which is situated at the intersection point of the lands belonging to Syria, Palestine, and Jordan. Today, we know that the lowest point on land on earth is at the Dead Sea, on the border of Jordan and Palestine (Israel). The Dead Sea lies at 1,312 feet (400 meters below sea level). However, as only modern measuring methods and equipment can prove this fact, it would have been impossible for anyone living at that time to realise this truth! Yet, the Glorious Qur'an states clearly that this region is the lowest land on Earth and thereby provides further evidence that it is the Truth from our Lord, ALLAH (SWT).
Hope this helps.
peace. -
Salam Ajay,
As Pazuzu pointed out, the Quran was recorded without dialectic marks, so both readings are correct from a linguistic point of view.
As for why the majority read it as "defeated, then won", that is how they heard it was read and then they heard the story of Persia and Rome to explain the verses.
Simply reading the entire sequence of verses will give you the correct answer
302 The Romans have "won/lost?".
303 At the lowest part on the earth. But after their "victory/loss?", they will be "defeated/victorious?".
304 In a few more years. The decision before and after is for God, and on that day the believers will rejoice.
305 With the victory of God. God gives victory to whom He wishes; He is the Noble, the Merciful.The Quran is giving us the location of the first battle "lowest part on earth" (Dead Sea).
The Quran tells us that the believers will rejoice after the second battle (which will take place in 3-5 years).
The Quran tells us that this rejoicing of the believers is due to the "victory from God".
If we take the traditional Persians vs. Romans argument, both these people are pagans in the eyes of the Quran and both did declare war on Muslims. That believers rejoice for the victory of one pagan nation over another makes no sense whatsover. Moreso, that God would call this a victory from him is bizzare as God does not support any idol worshippers/blasphemers (which is what Christianity and the idolization of Jesus as the son of God is).
Now, if we go back to the verses and tie them in with what we know of Islamic history
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Battle of Mutaa took place between the Muslims and the Romans near the area of the Dead Sea. Muslims were defeated and had to flee (many graves are marked in the area of Jordan for the fallen). Battle was lead by Zied - the Prophet's adopted son who was killed there.
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3 years later, the Muslims lead an army against Rome and the battle of Yarmouk is fought in the area north of Jordan near the Golan Heights. 5 Roman legions are defeated and Rome loses control of all of the Levant area giving the way to the liberation of Jerusalem and the taking of Damascus.
Regards,
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What on earth has ALRUM to do with the romans, not a thing , Alrum .........see lanes.
The romans had defeated the persians long before the quran .........
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romans_in_Persia
peace
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14787.msg138088#msg138088
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Thanks for the detail.. but as you said Quran itself means reading and its not revealed as book, i read in many verses as quran is a book, like "This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous." (22) Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book (244) And when a Book came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; (289), was quran compiled after the death of Prophet Mohamed pbuh or before it was compiled as book?
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Concerning word adna al ardh in 32-3
( ة
.Peace
adna mean near and not low for me.
Salam my brother,
The word does indeed mean (neaby); that's why ( ِ is often interpreted by the early Mufassirin/commentators (may they rest in peace) as "the nearest (persian) land to the arabs", or "the nearest (roman) land to the arabs" ( ب. However, taking into account (both) the lexical and semantic analysis ( ي, the word can have more than one specific meaning. A few examples would be
In Surat ( 7), ALLAH (SWT) informed us that
Here the word means (less)
(ى (ر. .
Also, in Surat ( 21), ALLAH (SWT) said
The word here does not mean the nearest ( rather, it can mean the smallest (ر, or the insignificant (ن, or the easiest, the short, the finite, the lowest, the earthly, ... punishments. We note that ALLAH (SWT) is mentioning two measures or categories of punishments
1- ( ) refers to the worst punishment imaginable awaiting in the afterlife ( ة.
2- ( ) refers to the (small/finite) punishments that takes place here on Earth in this life ( ا and are considered small or less significant when compared to the BIG/Significant/infinite punishment which awaits the hell dwellers, aka
Today, we use the word in this sense, for example; when we say (the LOWER limit) and (the upper limit)
So "" can also mean "lowest" ( ل And since the Qur'an is for ALL generations to come (from its revelation till the last day), the translation of " " as "the lowest land (on Earth)" is also correct. We shouldn't ignore this meaning because the verse is clearly pointing out a geographical fact that could not have been known by anyone at the 7th century.For more verses containing the word in question, I recommend this link http//quran.com/search?q=
Moreover, in the Qur'an we learn that ALLAH (SWT) divided the 7 heavens into layers ( ً, the lowest of which HE named the "Dunya" ( ا. Quoting from Surat ( 12)
Here the word (ا means both the "nearest to Earth" ( ض or the "lowest of the seven layers" ( ة. ALLAH (SWT) named it because it is the "lowest and nearest layer to Earth ( ض.
" . ? ?. . . . ( ض
Arabian poets have used the term in their poems to mean the "lowest", for example,
As we can see, the word here means the lowest (ض and means the highest.
Another interesting meaning of , would be (the valley or canyon) -
(ى
1- .
2- .
3- 400 .
(ا .
.
(ى .
(ى
.http//islamforhumanity.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dead-sea.jpg?w=604
( ض
. .
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Peace police
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salaam hicham9
some remarks
376
4112
675According to these verse, Samaa donia seems like if it is our solar system or our galaxy.
we have to be aware of meaning of number 7.
i remember i have read in book of maurice bucaille that 7 had meaning of underminate number
6512please google this http//www.google.com/search?&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22number+seven%22+egyptians+%22indeterminate+number%22&btnG=
concerning verse of rum, i have nothing to add.
Peace
