My salam tale [warning: very boring, don't click here!]
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Salam,
My name is Mohammed, I'm a 19 years old Iraqi boy (single ) born in the Netherlands studying Electrical Engineering in Amsterdam. Coming from a moderate shi'ite family, I've started studying my religion when I was about 15-16 years old. Because most of my muslim friends are sunni's, I was always wondering why there is so much hate between both sects seeing that both are pretty much identical except for tiny unimportant details over which heavy debates are always held. I was always wondering, assuming that there is a God and that Islam is the straight path, why there is such a great split in this straight path; surely it must have been the will of God? But, on the other hand, how can the true path be clearly distinct from the wrong path (see for example 2256) unless both sects are correct, or both are incorrect? This has kept me busy for quite some time, untill I was convinced that this distinction must have been a test from God. I saw all muslims who divided their religion in sects and who exagerated the differences as the ones who were misguided; and those who are steadfast in Islam, without commiting exaggerations as the rightly guided.
Lateron, I wanted to study my religion more thoroughly. I wanted to know all the 'important' details that I needed to know as a muslim. I thought, if I study these, surely I will understand things better, find patterns in how laws are formulated, be a better muslim, etc. I had a Fiq (sharia, islamic laws) book I started to study. As an example, what should I do if I forgot how many rakat's (= prayer cycles) I performed during prayer? This was a problem I often had with my prayer. I expected some basic guidelines and rules. Unfortunately, it was like I was searching for the largest number that existed the more '9' I add to the number, the more I approached infinity! Except that I never can reach infinity with finite numbers. giveup
I read tens and tens of pages, reading when I have to redo my prayer, when I have to perform an extra raka', and whether I can continue my prayer (without restarting) when there is doubt (about how many raka't are performed, words are pronounced correctly, etc.), with "exact definitions" when doubt can be ignored or not. Only to come to the conclusion that the book was not enough detailed, and to be referenced to other "more detailed" books... brickwall
I heard about following the Quran as an exclusive source of religion a year or two ago. It was a lot of confusion and reflection. I found several websites and in the beginning I read mostly from quran-islam.org but looking back many articles are of terrible quality with lots of errors and biasedness. To save you a very boring story Some time later I created an account on free-minds, and slowly started reading more on this forum...
... and hopefully I haven't made too many people fall asleep. )
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Not boring at all! Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy your stay here . Question everything and throw any dogma away, and ask Allah for guidance and insha Allah you will see where there is truth. Salam
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Salaam Mohammed
You're just like me, registering long ago, but just introducing by now. )
Hopefully you can study more in here, and may God always show you the true path.
Ameen
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Peazzzzz,
zZzZz. . oops I fell asleep. Naw, it was okay. I was just joking.
God bless you
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Salaam,
I realised I may not have welcomed you even though I was discussing with pixelrow before. It's almost 'relieving' to have those posts gone actually, although I did make some points in one of my posts which I consider important for anyone who reads/listens and ponders upon the Quran because these points were vital for me in my journey, but I guess they're not necessary on this thread.
Welcome to the forum!
I've found this quite a lot, people being so concerned with doing x number of rakat or in a very specific way. Is it about ritual or is it about communication? If people want to do it a specific way, and that works for them, that's great, but to say everyone has to raise their hands, place their hands on their chest with one hand over the other so as not to nullify prayer etc after saying x, y, z seems like people are trying to control something which can be much more 'free flowing'
In terms of the quran-islam.org website, I know they use the term 'True Islam' and tbh I haven't read much of their material, but I do think their intent is in the right place and I can only commend people for that.Some of the information there could be a valid starting point from which people can research further. In that way its like a lot of websites who at least provide somewhat referenced information. Everything is tainted by a bias or by a framework such as an academic framework which might differ from a pragmatic framework etc. This forum uses the title 'discover true islam' as well, but if someone takes a look and doesn't know about the flexibility of the Quran, they may wonder whether any 'true Islam' exists because of all of our differences, but maybe that is the 'truth' about Islam and the nature of the path.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time here.
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes, thank God they are gone now. I'd rather not see them.
And my previous (new order) post was a joke.
I love reading the story of people. God bless you
God bless you
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Salam all, thanks for your posts.
Yes, I don't need discussions about quran vs hadith here... There are better places for them.
Also, I tried to keep my story very short, because there are so many different stories here, that I'd thought most wouldn't even be read anyway. I mentioned only one tiny example about salat details but it is not the reason for conversion, in fact, I had no problems at the time with it.
I'm a 19 years old Iraqi boy (single )
this was the best part, and after this I didnt felt any need to read more.
I am really curious what you mean here, what is streange about my post ? Is it because I said I am single? ;D Well if anyone reading this lives nearby, somewhere in the Netherlands / Amsterdam, I would love to meet... P
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Salam all, thanks for your posts.
Yes, I don't need discussions about quran vs hadith here... There are better places for them.
Also, I tried to keep my story very short, because there are so many different stories here, that I'd thought most wouldn't even be read anyway. I mentioned only one tiny example about salat details but it is not the reason for conversion, in fact, I had no problems at the time with it.
I am really curious what you mean here, what is streange about my post ? Is it because I said I am single? ;D Well if anyone reading this lives nearby, somewhere in the Netherlands / Amsterdam, I would love to meet... PPeace mohf,
When I mentioned all those points about Salat, it was more about general points after what I read your post.
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Peace mohf,
When I mentioned all those points about Salat, it was more about general points after what I read your post.
Yes, I recognised that. At that time I didn't have any problem with these things, I just accepted it all as truth. Now, I don't see a problem with some very general rituals but there is a limit. And these sharia/fiq books cross that limit. How can anyone believe that these extremely specific details come in any way from our prophet? Wasn't he already very busy with other, much much more imporant things in his life?
For me enough reason to reject such non sense. How ever, I do not reject all hadiths, I still do some very basic rituals, like performing two rakat's in every prayer, fasting in Ramadan with my family, doing all kind of good deeds and anything that does not contradict the Quran in any way.By the way, Quran-islam.org is a very bad site. It is not about a small layer of biasedness. Rather, it's like someone is telling you that he knows the truth, and you do not.
For example, this is how their arguments looks like to reject the traditional 5 prayers
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html
Three Salat (Prayers) Authorised in the Quran
The prayers mentioned by name in the Quran are
1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)2458
2- Salat Al-Isha (Night Prayer)2458
3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2238.However, 99% of all Muslims in the world claim that God decreed 5 daily prayers.
Their 5 salat are Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha.
They changed the name of the Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) to Salat Al-Zhohr, and they added 2 salat which are the Asr and Maghrib.The question is If the prescribed prayers are indeed five per day, why does the Quran have only three named salat? To research this issue we present the following points
First Why are there only three named salat in the Quran?
If it is true that God authorized 5 obligatory salat per day, then we must inquire as to why there are only 3 names of salat given in the Quran?
The following explanations and their merits are put forward1- The names of the other salat are not in the Quran because the Quran does not contain all the details. This is a false claim because God tells us in 6114 that the book is fully detailed and in 638 that nothing has been left out of the book
?Should I seek other than God as a source of law when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114
?We did not leave anything out of the book? 6382- God forgot to mention the other two names of salat! This option is also false, God does not forget
?He said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord never errs, nor does He forget." 2052
3- God did not mention the names of the other 2 salat because they are not important. If the salat were not important they would not be compulsory, and as a result, to claim that there are five compulsory prayers becomes a false claim.
4- God did not mention the names of the other 2 prayers because God wants us to guess them! Once again this is false, the Quran is unambiguous and is not a book of puzzles
"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 121
"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 44585- God does not mention the names of the other 2 salat because God they can be found in the hadith. This is a false claim since we are commanded not to uphold any source of law other than the Quran (6114, 73 and 54. We are also commanded specifically not to believe any hadith other than the Quran
?These are God's revelations (Quran) which we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?? 456
The fact that God deliberately used the words ?in which hadith? are very significant.
6- God does not mention the names of all the salat since they came to us through inherited rituals, and because God wants us to follow what we inherited from our parents even if it is not found in the Quran! Once again a claim that violates the Quran. In the Quran we are commanded not to follow what we inherited from our parents if it is not clearly found in the Quran
?And when they are told, "Follow what God has revealed (Quran)," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?? 2170
7- God does not mention the names of the other 2 prayers, because there are no other 2 prayers according to the law of the Quran.
The genuine believers who believe that the Quran contains all the details, with no ifs or buts, will not accept any option other than option 7.
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Peace,
I do not find the arguments too bad in what you posted mohf. Why would God make it complicated to understand which times of the day one is expected to observe prayers?
But I am still wondering about the Truth despite this. At some occasions I have got the feeling that there is no fixed amount of prayers and we should pray as often as possible and just like giving charity it is about showing how open hearts we have.
Why God mentions dawn and night prayer may be because it is given that one would pray as soon as he wakes up in the morning and when he is about to go to sleep. The 'wusta' prayer could be a hint to something about observing prayers in the middle of the day (although al-salat al-wusta is singular as far as I understand).
The plural used for prayers indicates that there must be at least three prayers, but there is no upper limit. I think God would have written a definite number if that was the case. If there was another minimum than three God would specify this in a better manner as God is pretty clear about how perfect and detailed His book is.
I find it quite natural that you pray when you open your eyes in the morning and before you go to sleep. Prayers are part of glorifying and praising God.
However, if you consider external sources, other than Quran, the Bible talks about three o'clock prayer in the afternoon. But this could indicate someone's personal preference to satisfy God in the form of a habit. Jesus seems to have "allegedly" prayed each three hours during the day, which can reflect a personal preference of prayer schedule than a prescribed order from God.
I find it logical that you think more about God if you bake in many prayer occasions in your daily schedule. Of course, they should come natural and note cause discomfort because of the daily chores in hunt for God's provisions (especially in case you follow Jesus' exemplary prayer pattern, but remember Jesus spent more time serving God than indulging in this life).
I find it a bit meager to skip prayers because of work considering God is more important than all other things in life. But I agree if you would risk losing your work (and therefore income) then it is better to skip prayers. But if your boss refuses to let you pray you might consider changing workplace.
On a side note, I do not think prayers have a strict timetable, let us say you have work between 5 and 10 it is okay to pray right before work and straight after your shift.
I think we should plan our lives so we have a chance getting away during longer shifts so that we can pray, for example, during lunch breaks or coffee breaks etc. If your boss is whiny then offer to stay at work 15 minutes longer per day or some other compromise.
One thing I am sure about amidst all talk about ritual or not is that I am absolutely sure that there are prayers, they are not invented. But they are likely not uniform and rather more focused on contacting God in the best possible manner. Still I cannot fathom praying without any kind of bodily concentration.
I am still using the stone age practice of prostration to God, it is an old way of showing utter respect for someone and not invented for religion primarily, that is a misconception. But if to kneel suffices or any other way to glorify God, then go ahead and do it.
Well, anyways, have your own way if you want.
"Follow the best and ignore the rest."
God bless you
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I do not find the arguments too bad in what you posted mohf. Why would God make it complicated to understand which times of the day one is expected to observe prayers?
I find the arguments very weak. All he does is just invents some (obviously incorrect) imaginary statements, aslike they come from the traditionalists, just so that he can destroy them easily without any effort.
2- God forgot to mention the other two names of salat! This option is also false, God does not forget
BS. No serious muslim would ever believe such non sense.
3- God did not mention the names of the other 2 salat because they are not important.
Again, an imaginary statement. Find me any traditionalist who believes this.
4- God did not mention the names of the other 2 prayers because God wants us to guess them!
Wtf?
7- God does not mention the names of the other 2 prayers, because there are no other 2 prayers according to the law of the Quran.
The genuine believers who believe that the Quran contains all the details, with no ifs or buts, will not accept any option other than option 7.I do not believe in an afternoon prayer. On the other hand, I do believe there is an voluntary night prayer. So am I not a "genuine believer who believe that the Quran contains all the details" ?
It's aslike a fully biased, subjective kid with a tunnel vision wrote the article who thinks everything he knows is the absolute truth.
But I am still wondering about the Truth despite this. At some occasions I have got the feeling that there is no fixed amount of prayers and we should pray as often as possible and just like giving charity it is about showing how open hearts we have.
Why God mentions dawn and night prayer may be because it is given that one would pray as soon as he wakes up in the morning and when he is about to go to sleep. The 'wusta' prayer could be a hint to something about observing prayers in the middle of the day (although al-salat al-wusta is singular as far as I understand).
I do not think wusta is an additional prayer. As to why 2238 is using salawat in plural for 3 or more prayers, it is because there are in my understanding atleast two obligatory prayers (fajr + isha) and an voluntary night prayer which is often overlooked
1778-79
Rise for salat from "duluk a-shams" till "ghasaq al-layl" and the recitation of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is witnessed.
And from the night, fatahajjad" with it an additional for you; it may be hat your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.So there is no contradiction/issue in 2238 at all when it says salawat in plural of 3 or more prayers. The argument often used that it can also refer to all salat in one's lifetime is silly; if it is true, then our prayers should also be performed at al fajr of our life time and isha of our life... which obviously no one would accept.
I am still using the stone age practice of prostration to God, it is an old way of showing utter respect for someone and not invented for religion primarily, that is a misconception. But if to kneel suffices or any other way to glorify God, then go ahead and do it.
Everyone his way. I do not see any problem at all which way one prays, aslong as it does not contradict the Quran and it fulfills the goals mentioned.