Wandering revert comes to Free Minds
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Assalamu alaykum,
I was raised up Mormon and went through a religious quest which brought me to the Baha'i Faith which spurred my interest in Islam as it really introduced me to at least a conception of pure monotheism. I first took shahadah in a Sunni-run masjid but I found their interpretations to be too harsh (many new reverts to Islam are unaware of the large focus on Sunnah and Hadiths as our perception of Islam usually comes from reading a translation of the Qur'an and introductions to Islam do not touch heavily on how much Islamic practice comes from non-Qur'anic sources). So I looked at Ahmadiyya and I liked some of their interpretations but found that they seem to commiting shirk (the same issue I have with the Baha'i and Christianity, and the same issue I have with the veneration of Hadith over the words of the Qur'an by mainstream Muslims). For a while I fell away due to lack of faith (coupled with severe health and financial issues) as I could not find what really resonates with me but I hope to find it here, Insha Allah.
Dave (aka Dawud Salim)
Ahmadi are not guilty of Shirk - as they believe in One God. Their crime is breaking the second basic tenet of Islam - Risalah. They equate Qadiani to be a Prophet.
"I have with the veneration of Hadith over the words of the Qur'an by mainstream Muslims"
Something which isn't true. Muslims do not venerate Hadith over the Quran. It is a lazy accusation.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
"Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an"
Again, you will find that Hadith that are contradictory to the Quran are not implemented as law.
"It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale."
I didn't get - what you meant by this.
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Salaam,
Welcome to the forum. Hope you will enjoy your stay. I originally left Christianity for islam and found that it had just the same amount of idolatry as my old religion. But I searched and found the Unitarian Muslims on the Web. Thanks God for that.
God bless you
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
Peace,
I agree with this. Divine attributes in any shape or form are for Allah alone from my point of view. This is what I understand of the Quran, and the Quran points out some of the places where the Messengers were wrong or made a mistake. But things like the Hadith do not take this into account and just record and imitate everything.
That's why I believe the hadith is much more about imitation, but not by all who follow hadith, and the Quran is about learning as an individual. Imitation of a human being is futile, you were not created as them. But rather we need to understand our own life lessons etc as an individual and apply the general principles that the Quran sets forth.
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"This is what I understand of the Quran, and the Quran points out some of the places where the Messengers were wrong or made a mistake."
Where? Messengers by their very being are above "mistakes" as such . . . as the Quran says . . . all they do is directed by Allah. Else there is the chance the message will be corrupt - and they will be accused as such.
" But things like the Hadith do not take this into account and just record and imitate everything. "
Atta! As what human is going to judge his Prophet? They were told NOT even to raise their VOICE louder than the Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him.
"But rather we need to understand our own life lessons etc as an individual and apply the general principles that the Quran sets forth."
Many are not understood without Hadith.
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I don't have time to check the verses right now, but I will mention the topics as some are instantly familiar and will not require a verse and for others those who are truly interested can look it up for themselves if they wish.
Jonah leaves his duty and flees to a ship. After residing in the whale, he calls out to Allah, and Allah states Allah forgives him because he glorified His Lord.
Moses kills a man, by not knowing his own strength and helping another man, that I believe turned out to be a bit of a charlatan himself. Allah forgives Moses for his error
There is a Surah that mentions Abraham and how in him was an example when he came across people who were defiantly disobedient (probably threatening as well, as they used to want to kill the Messengers) and he said he completely rejects them but then we are told, not for us is the example where Abraham prayed for his father to come to Islam again and again even after his father threatens to stone him. It mentions that Abraham only did it because he made a pledge or a promise to do as a such.
There is also a passage that mentions how Muhammad allowed for something to be prohibited (or allowed, but I think its prohibited) for his wives as they may have requested it, but he didn't put this in the Quran, but Allah states may He have mercy on him for that, because he has made an error. - I am not sure about the wording of this, but I know it speaks clearly on the point that may Allah forgive you Prophet for this.
They made mistakes in other areas - but not in the Message - they were human beings, they had to learn too, and as human beings we make mistakes and errors, it is part of being fallible.
Did the Prophets pray for forgiveness for themselves? If not, they are God-like. If they did, they were human beings capable of mistakes.
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Peace,
Note that Muhammad committed at least three errors during his life as God is revealing it in Quran. He turned away his eyes from a blind man, and he was making a biased judgment after his wives pushed him, and finally, he almost let people divert him from the Truth and only God's mercy prevented him. So much for infallibility of prophet Muhammad?
Muhammad was a human being like everyone else with the honorable work as a Messenger of God. It did not prevent him from making humanly mistakes.
Of course, God supported him, but God can support any righteous servant in His domain.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
Yes, thanks for adding in those additional examples. The Messengers are very good examples for people and tried with much effort to do their task, but they were still human beings. Allah guides us towards which example from them that is the best for us to follow.
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"Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an"
Again, you will find that Hadith that are contradictory to the Quran are not implemented as law.
Hmm... I'll just refer you to some interpretations of Sharia which go above and beyond the penalties called for in the Qur'an. The penalty for stealing is one example or the interpretation of hijab is another. Personally I think many Hadiths are used as excuses to implement cultural bias rather than Qur'anic values. But you are welcome to your own interpretation.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
You know, some of us follow Rashad Khalifa's teachings (aka Submitters), but do not impart him as a divine being at all, rather as a messenger of God, just like others were. He was the one who is credited to revive the "Quran alone" movement.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/messenger_of_covenant.html -
You know, some of us follow Rashad Khalifa's teachings (aka Submitters), but do not impart him as a divine being at all, rather as a messenger of God, just like others were. He was the one who is credited to revive the "Quran alone" movement.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/messenger_of_covenant.htmlAs long as you are not ascribing divine qualities such as infallibility to Rashad Khalifa, then I don't necessarily see a problem with that. It sounds like a similar position to that taken by the Lahore Ahmadis.
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Welcome and peace. Glorified be God, for he is the only one who can make us discern the truth from the false, and guide us to the right path
Hold fast to what God has sent down to us. The Quran is the law, and the only law, for a muslim. If is not in the Quran one is not obliged to obey it, unless is reasonable and good or the community.
587 O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not deprive yourselves of the good things of life which God has made lawful to you, but do not transgress the bounds of what is right verily, God does not love those who transgress the bounds of what is right. (58 Thus, partake of the lawful, good things which God grants you as sustenance, and be conscious of God, in whom you believe.
545And We ordained for them in it that A life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and a retribution for wounds; but he who shall forgo it out of charity will atone thereby for some of his past sins. And they who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed - they, they are the evildoers!Acording to the Quran a true muslim should believe that it is from God that which was revealed to us as well as that which was revealed before us (the Torah, the Psalms, wisdom of Salomon, and the Gospel of Jesus) and one can learn a lot from these previous revelations (but the hadits are never mentioned). However, A Muslim is not obliged to follow previous revelations, since our complete and detailed Law and Rituals are stated in the Quran.
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Peace
Pixelrowed Many are not understood without Hadith.
From Mohamed asad's the mesage of the Quran
37 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out confusion, and seeking its final meaning ; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight. -
Peace I know this is off topic but I could not answer to this being in the right thread because is locked, but god willed that I find him/her here.
pixelrowed if you and those who follow the the sunni way claim that you alone are closer to God, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should be longing for death - if what you say is true! But never will you long for it, because you know what your hands have wrought in this world, and God has full knowledge of evildoers.
4729 Or do they in whose hearts is disease think, perchance, that God would never bring their moral failings to light?
4730 Now had We so willed, We could have shown them clearly to thee, so that thou wouldst know them for sure as by a visible mark35 but thou wilt most certainly recognize them by the tone of their voice. And God knows all that you do,