Wandering revert comes to Free Minds
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Assalamu alaykum,
I was raised up Mormon and went through a religious quest which brought me to the Baha'i Faith which spurred my interest in Islam as it really introduced me to at least a conception of pure monotheism. I first took shahadah in a Sunni-run masjid but I found their interpretations to be too harsh (many new reverts to Islam are unaware of the large focus on Sunnah and Hadiths as our perception of Islam usually comes from reading a translation of the Qur'an and introductions to Islam do not touch heavily on how much Islamic practice comes from non-Qur'anic sources). So I looked at Ahmadiyya and I liked some of their interpretations but found that they seem to commiting shirk (the same issue I have with the Baha'i and Christianity, and the same issue I have with the veneration of Hadith over the words of the Qur'an by mainstream Muslims). For a while I fell away due to lack of faith (coupled with severe health and financial issues) as I could not find what really resonates with me but I hope to find it here, Insha Allah.
Dave (aka Dawud Salim)
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Peace be with you & Welcome peace
Yes, sometimes it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
You're the first Mormon convert here. I've talked to 2 missionary Mormons before, but they were too intimidated. Traditional Orthodox Islam has it's issues too. I am still studying world religion on my own, and i can see flaws coming out in each group....Feel free to look around and search through the forum here and also, You can connect with more people on facebook who have a similar beliefs
Uniting Muslims who want to follow the Quran Alone.
https//www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/ -
Thanks! I just submitted a request to join the Facebook group. I've given up on trying to find the "perfect" group. Instead, I am trying to find the one that I philosophically and theologically agree with the most as I have a classical "unitarian" monotheistic conception of God - where the unity of God is emphasized and human beings, traditions, etc. are not put on a similar platform with God by being declared as inerrant, infallible, etc. Basically I do not believe that the true ineffable nature of God can be fully expressed through any finite vehicle such as a human being or a book (the Qur'an, to me, is the best preserved text which is consistently monotheistic and does not commit shirk which is what gives it more authority), or oral or written tradition.
Basically I don't mind if others choose to follow Sunnah/Hadiths (that don't conflict with the Qur'an), but would have an issue if they insisted that I do so.
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Salaamun alayka,
Welcome to the forum handshake
InshaAllah you will like it here.
As the forum title already gives a way, you will find most of us here free-thinkers who try to hold only to what Allah shows us and try to live by the ayaats of The Quran only.Salaam,
Bender -
Peace,
Welcome to the forum! Can I ask what you mean by a unitarian concept of God? If you begin from the concept of the Creator, then is there anything you need to unify there or do you mean something else? I also don't think the totality of God can be expressed to us, but I believe what we need to understand and our relationship with God can be fully expressed. Insha'Allah, you have or will overcome your health and financial issues.
May Allah protect and guide you and all those who seek Him
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Unitarian in the theological sense (NOT the modern "Unitarian Universalist" usage) is another term for a strict monotheist. For example, Unitarian Christians do not believe in the Trinity concept but maintain that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet, but not God himself.
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Ok. I prefer to use the terms Oneness in reference to God and monotheist, but each to their own. I'm not sure if I view monotheism in terms of being strict or not strict. There is either a Monotheistic belief in the actual Creator and that we will not forge lies about that Creator or there are other ways of approaching the concept of Deity.
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So I looked at Ahmadiyya and I liked some of their interpretations but found that they seem to commiting shirk (the same issue I have with the Baha'i and Christianity,
Not all Ahmadiya is shirk, just try Lahorean Ahmadiya, they not believe Mirza Gulam Ahmad as phrophet, but a mujahid only.
Btw salaam Dawud Saleem.Looks like in free-minds not only you who following Quran alone after Mu'alaf.May you can find some light in this forum welcome
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Assalamu alaykum,
I was raised up Mormon and went through a religious quest which brought me to the Baha'i Faith which spurred my interest in Islam as it really introduced me to at least a conception of pure monotheism. I first took shahadah in a Sunni-run masjid but I found their interpretations to be too harsh (many new reverts to Islam are unaware of the large focus on Sunnah and Hadiths as our perception of Islam usually comes from reading a translation of the Qur'an and introductions to Islam do not touch heavily on how much Islamic practice comes from non-Qur'anic sources). So I looked at Ahmadiyya and I liked some of their interpretations but found that they seem to commiting shirk (the same issue I have with the Baha'i and Christianity, and the same issue I have with the veneration of Hadith over the words of the Qur'an by mainstream Muslims). For a while I fell away due to lack of faith (coupled with severe health and financial issues) as I could not find what really resonates with me but I hope to find it here, Insha Allah.
Dave (aka Dawud Salim)
Ahmadi are not guilty of Shirk - as they believe in One God. Their crime is breaking the second basic tenet of Islam - Risalah. They equate Qadiani to be a Prophet.
"I have with the veneration of Hadith over the words of the Qur'an by mainstream Muslims"
Something which isn't true. Muslims do not venerate Hadith over the Quran. It is a lazy accusation.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
"Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an"
Again, you will find that Hadith that are contradictory to the Quran are not implemented as law.
"It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale."
I didn't get - what you meant by this.
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Salaam,
Welcome to the forum. Hope you will enjoy your stay. I originally left Christianity for islam and found that it had just the same amount of idolatry as my old religion. But I searched and found the Unitarian Muslims on the Web. Thanks God for that.
God bless you
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
I feel the same about Hadiths and the Qur'an. Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an then one is elevating Hadiths OVER the Qur'an. It is thus not a "lazy accusation" as you implied but one following a specific rationale.
Peace,
I agree with this. Divine attributes in any shape or form are for Allah alone from my point of view. This is what I understand of the Quran, and the Quran points out some of the places where the Messengers were wrong or made a mistake. But things like the Hadith do not take this into account and just record and imitate everything.
That's why I believe the hadith is much more about imitation, but not by all who follow hadith, and the Quran is about learning as an individual. Imitation of a human being is futile, you were not created as them. But rather we need to understand our own life lessons etc as an individual and apply the general principles that the Quran sets forth.
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"This is what I understand of the Quran, and the Quran points out some of the places where the Messengers were wrong or made a mistake."
Where? Messengers by their very being are above "mistakes" as such . . . as the Quran says . . . all they do is directed by Allah. Else there is the chance the message will be corrupt - and they will be accused as such.
" But things like the Hadith do not take this into account and just record and imitate everything. "
Atta! As what human is going to judge his Prophet? They were told NOT even to raise their VOICE louder than the Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him.
"But rather we need to understand our own life lessons etc as an individual and apply the general principles that the Quran sets forth."
Many are not understood without Hadith.
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I don't have time to check the verses right now, but I will mention the topics as some are instantly familiar and will not require a verse and for others those who are truly interested can look it up for themselves if they wish.
Jonah leaves his duty and flees to a ship. After residing in the whale, he calls out to Allah, and Allah states Allah forgives him because he glorified His Lord.
Moses kills a man, by not knowing his own strength and helping another man, that I believe turned out to be a bit of a charlatan himself. Allah forgives Moses for his error
There is a Surah that mentions Abraham and how in him was an example when he came across people who were defiantly disobedient (probably threatening as well, as they used to want to kill the Messengers) and he said he completely rejects them but then we are told, not for us is the example where Abraham prayed for his father to come to Islam again and again even after his father threatens to stone him. It mentions that Abraham only did it because he made a pledge or a promise to do as a such.
There is also a passage that mentions how Muhammad allowed for something to be prohibited (or allowed, but I think its prohibited) for his wives as they may have requested it, but he didn't put this in the Quran, but Allah states may He have mercy on him for that, because he has made an error. - I am not sure about the wording of this, but I know it speaks clearly on the point that may Allah forgive you Prophet for this.
They made mistakes in other areas - but not in the Message - they were human beings, they had to learn too, and as human beings we make mistakes and errors, it is part of being fallible.
Did the Prophets pray for forgiveness for themselves? If not, they are God-like. If they did, they were human beings capable of mistakes.
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Peace,
Note that Muhammad committed at least three errors during his life as God is revealing it in Quran. He turned away his eyes from a blind man, and he was making a biased judgment after his wives pushed him, and finally, he almost let people divert him from the Truth and only God's mercy prevented him. So much for infallibility of prophet Muhammad?
Muhammad was a human being like everyone else with the honorable work as a Messenger of God. It did not prevent him from making humanly mistakes.
Of course, God supported him, but God can support any righteous servant in His domain.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
Yes, thanks for adding in those additional examples. The Messengers are very good examples for people and tried with much effort to do their task, but they were still human beings. Allah guides us towards which example from them that is the best for us to follow.
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"Once one accepts and follows Hadiths which contradict the Qur'an"
Again, you will find that Hadith that are contradictory to the Quran are not implemented as law.
Hmm... I'll just refer you to some interpretations of Sharia which go above and beyond the penalties called for in the Qur'an. The penalty for stealing is one example or the interpretation of hijab is another. Personally I think many Hadiths are used as excuses to implement cultural bias rather than Qur'anic values. But you are welcome to your own interpretation.
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True, but there is a fine line between shirk and Risalah - often they become one and the same. Basically in my mind, once one imparts divine-like qualities like infallibility to a human being which is what Qadiani Ahmadis do to Qadiani and Baha'is do to Baha'u'llah then it crosses that line to me. As Earthdom pointed out Lahore Ahmadis view Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a reformer.
You know, some of us follow Rashad Khalifa's teachings (aka Submitters), but do not impart him as a divine being at all, rather as a messenger of God, just like others were. He was the one who is credited to revive the "Quran alone" movement.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/messenger_of_covenant.html -
You know, some of us follow Rashad Khalifa's teachings (aka Submitters), but do not impart him as a divine being at all, rather as a messenger of God, just like others were. He was the one who is credited to revive the "Quran alone" movement.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/messenger_of_covenant.htmlAs long as you are not ascribing divine qualities such as infallibility to Rashad Khalifa, then I don't necessarily see a problem with that. It sounds like a similar position to that taken by the Lahore Ahmadis.