More salat and ra'kat discussion
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peace all,
In my view, with regard to number of salat or even rakat, there is no issue if
- one is to the best of their knowledge/effort/research doing what they think is right
- they are sincere in this
- they continue to seek knowledge etc
Personally, I don't see how anyone can reasonably conclude from reading Quran that a salat has "rakat" units and there is a salat called "wusta" but that's just me.
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I should point out that fulfilling the three criteria above is perhaps not as easy as one might think, for example in my view being "sincere" I think it is common for Muslims to have/do a certain act/belief/practice as part of their religion but if one were to ask them how much time/effort have you spent determining that to be a true/evidenced/accurate act/belief/practice very few would actually say they have spent significant time on it or given this their best effort.
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Peace,
There appears to be five salats
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605189.msg324894#msg324894
I consider that post to be poor. It simply repeats the same errors as repeated many times before. By far the best discussions on salat can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0To be honest I am surprised anyone reads that post you linked to and considers it good UNLESS they believe in code 19, as they seem to readily take numerology as "good" evidence.
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Peace Wakas,
Trust me. I am trying to find ways of validating or invalidating my current practice as often as I can. Much of my time goes to try to think if I actually do the right thing. I am not extremely conservative, but since I still have no overwhelming proof that invalidates the rakah system I continue with it. I know, there is no proof validating the practice either, but I find it not to be blasphemous to my Lord.
My modification with stretched up hands is relatively new and I found some texts in the Bible talking about it and I know Zoroastrians pray like that.
Between all these unreliable sources, I actually think salat is not a uniform prayer but an individual one. The personal connection to God is more important than doing some robot-like movements several times daily.
With the above in mind I try to liven up my prayers even if I still condone to the traditional movement. The ending with free talk and meditation is a way to make a more flexible relationship to God (if you read about my prayer).
God bless you
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I consider that post to be poor. It simply repeats the same errors as repeated many times before. By far the best discussions on salat can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0To be honest I am surprised anyone reads that post you linked to and considers it good UNLESS they believe in code 19, as they seem to readily take numerology as "good" evidence.
Peace Wakas,
The 19 reference is incidental and irrevelant, the point is, are there three or five salat,
and navidfa makes a valid point that there are five. Having said that, now look at the
ayats and make your dispute directed at the ayats and not 19.peace
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Peace Wakas,
The 19 reference is incidental and irrevelant, the point is, are there three or five salat,
and navidfa makes a valid point that there are five. Having said that, now look at the
ayats and make your dispute directed at the ayats and not 19.peace
The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace @Wakas.
I already reading your posts and your website (studyquran.com)
You may translate sujud as not physiccal prostating.Then I want to know is how do you perform salat?
Salaam
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peace all,
MofF - I can appreciate what you're saying, but if you deem it individual only, then verses such as 4102 may be problematic for you. Perhaps not.
Hawk99, again I recommend the compilation of salat links thread. The post you referred to has basic errors in it which anyone who has read the compilation thread would discover. If after having read them you still have queries etc feel free to post them here.
Earthdom, please see here for my view on salat http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
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Earthdom, please see here for my view on salat http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
Peace be with you, Wakas.
I have read that article before that you have linked. But it does not answer the question which Earthdom has asked you. I think you don't take salat to mean as 'prayer'. But if I'm not getting you right, can you please kindly tell us in brief that how do you do your salat?
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Peace Wakas,
I have always had that verse in mind, but it does not mean that prayers have to be uniform when you pray alone. But of course, that verse stirs around the philosophies a bit. It gives me the feeling that some sort of physical movement atypical to islam is prescribed by God, perhaps the ancient prostration?
The verse you referred to at least convinces me that salat is a sort of prayer ritual.
God bless you
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peace all,
MofF - I personally don't see how prostration can work in 4102 as I have outlined here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
And I don't see how one can conclude from 4102 that it means a sort of prayer ritual. Certainly a "ritual" as in something done regular/routinely but not a "prayer" per se.Scribbler, can you help me out and tell me which bit you do not understand from my article, as I think it is quite clear. Quote
To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
Verses linking slw to al quran 243-45, 4103, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778.
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. 2x per day)
When one undertakes this regular/timed salat, one should follow the specific guidelines given, e.g be clean , clear mind , moderate tone (although this may only apply when in groups due to the context of this verse) etc.
This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful), see 4103. Mumin is different to muslim. This is a very important point to consider. Who are the mumin? To find out, see the articles below
Submitters (Muslims) vs. Believers (Mumins)
The Trust - www.free-minds.org/trustThis makes sense because it is only the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful) who are upholding the scripture. For them, to uphold/maintain the going/turning towards (i.e. link/bond) will be more specific and thus directly related to what the scripture contains, hence reading of it regularly. In other words knowing what the bond entails goes hand in hand with its application.
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The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
KhalilSalaamun alayka,
RED 2238 does not say per day
BLUE As per my current understanding "WUSTA" does not mean middle. You can look at 2143, 589 and 6828 for a better defintion.
salaam,
Bender -
The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
KhalilAgreed
O0
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Salaamun alayka,
RED 2238 does not say per day
BLUE As per my current understanding "WUSTA" does not mean middle. You can look at 2143, 589 and 6828 for a better defintion.
salaam,
BenderPeace Bender,
How would you translate 2/238?
The believers are members of one family; you shall keep the peace within
your family and reverence GOD, that you may attain mercy.pr
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Peace Bender,
How would you translate 2/238?
The believers are members of one family; you shall keep the peace within
your family and reverence GOD, that you may attain mercy.pr
Salaamun alayka hawk99,
instead of "middle" I think a word like "foremost" would be more precise.
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace with you all,
I want to put some lines to the topic, which are my own understanding of prayers- without translation of specific words you have already illustrated here in this thread.
1315 And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.
2218 See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can honour him. Verily! Allah does what He wills.
556 And the herbs (or stars) and the trees both prostrate.
http//www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/
As far as I understand this verses show us submitting/surrender - (sjd) of plants, moon, stars, mankind etc. to God. That means that everything, submit God?s natural laws that God has established/determined- time, atoms, gravity, mass, size, space-and time relationship, energy,?.dna, growth,metabolism, reproduction, respiration, irritability,?. etc (only a brief outline) And the verse in the sura 1315 point actually ?willingly? and ?unwillingly?, which is in my opinion a reference to the nature laws that we can?t avoid. It is impossible. If that were possible then God will contradict its (its=means God?s, I use here it, not "he" for God) self made laws of nature. God doesn?t contradict itself, doesn?t change its words, laws. In the laws of nature on the earth (biology, chemistry, physics), mats as the alone universal nature law, you will never not find contradictions.
For me the main massage of the Quran for mankind is to develop in science ? to learn from nature- WHAT IS IT AND HOW DOES IT WORK?, which is self organizing body and to use that knowledge to develop further at this area , what means in context for our better life here, satisfaction.If we look to this breath-taking nature and look to the details how something is created and how it works, we will never stop to praise God for its relief, because it is soooo fascinating and never ending story. Isn?t it?
In nature and space is always something to find what we, mankind, can investigate. Yes, we tend to take advantage of our knowledge but in my point of view that looks at the moment so because we are still young learners (kids) that do nasty tricks against ourselves. The Quran writes about good things for us and teach us on the way how to distinguish between good and evil things; to learn from the stories of previous nations and from our surrounding. It is virtuous apprenticeship for mankind.The next matter I want to point to is ritual prayer- 2, 3, or 5 times at day- it depends how one understands the verses how many times is to pray daily or in the night.
From my point of view the prayer in the Quran in a form to reflect his/her thoughts, words, acts etc. and according to what is in the Quran written realizing his/her own mistakes and avoiding them in the future.
Not only mistakes should be reflected but also the situation one has experienced where he/she was harmed/offended/humiliated etc. by and additionally to think how to cope with such situations/feelings to get not distressed next time.
If someone does prayer standing and bending, sitting and prostrate, I think that is matter of individuality. If we pray in community then it can be set how to
Perform physical prayer. In fact it is more important to discus matters, which are essential for maintenance of social and moral community.
First of all we should be thankful to God and praise God for everything is given to us, to pray for straight way, to ask for forgiveness, etc. God knows what we need and give us everything but what we do with it actually depends on our free will.I apologize for my not accurate written English and out of that maybe incomprehensible text.
All comments are pretty wished and welcome! -
Salaamun alayka,
RED 2238 does not say per day
BLUE As per my current understanding "WUSTA" does not mean middle. You can look at 2143, 589 and 6828 for a better defintion.
salaam,
Bender2238 does not mention DAILY Salaats, but that is what we logically understand from it, i.e. we perform SALAAH, as a DAILY ritual.
The root word ?WA-SA-TA? means middle, center, midmost, midst, midway, halfway, average, median, medium, moderate, and neutral.
In all the verses you?ve mentioned, it more or less, means the same. In 2143 it can mean, moderate and or neutral. In 589 it means, median and or moderate. In 6828 it means one from their midst.
2143
589
6828
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaamun alayka hawk99,
instead of "middle" I think a word like "foremost" would be more precise.
Salaam,
BenderPeace Bender,
So your translation would be
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, foremost prayer and devote yourselves totally to GOD
&
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Peace wakas,
Your understanding sounds like Christianity for some reason )
God bless you
