Are we required to recite what is stated in 17:111 in our salat?
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Where in the Koran does God say to "recite" a certain verse in salat? And also why "recite" back to God that He has no son or partners or has no needs? Why the need to repeat over and over again statements about God? confused
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Peace,
Indeed, I have, but if you are referring to those articles, I want to remind you that Wakas has written them, not me. He is a mod on this forum. Can you explain what you mean with "on the foundation of taqwa" and use English, not Arabic
Peace.
Thanks for clarification. I use taqwa not righteousness, because it is specifically taqwa i want to refer to from the ayat of the Quran.
Then is one who laid the foundation of his building on righteousness (taqwa) from Allah and His approval better or one who laid the foundation of his building on the edge of a bank about to collapse, so it collapsed with him into the fire of Hell? And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (9109)
Taqwa is a concept, needs to read all ayats containing taqwa to understand the concept. Some translators translate salihan to mean righteousness too. Each has its own meanings as a concept.
Would be glad if you can share the concept of taqwa. handshake
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Peace.
The ayats of the Quran i wish to draw attention to starts from (910
Do not stand within it - ever. A mosque founded on ltaqwa (righteousness) from the first day is more worthy for you to stand in. Within it are men who love to purify themselves; and Allah loves those who purify themselves. (910
Then is one who laid the foundation of his building on righteousness (taqwa) from Allah and His approval better or one who laid the foundation of his building on the edge of a bank about to collapse, so it collapsed with him into the fire of Hell? And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (9109)
Do not stand in it, ever is a strong commandment from Allah. That's why i said our challenge is to build or to have a place where we can stand in a congregation and learning the Quran. I have seen a community who stand in congregation, in a house, on the foundation of taqwa, in Melbourne, in 2002.
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My self is still reciting 17111, but in my own language.
Just read this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605224.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.msg143770#msg143770Enjoy and hope you will find clear answer
Would be glad if you can share the concept of taqwa.
Taqwa is simply have iman to Allah, His Rasuls, His Malaykas,following the teaching in Quran and avoid doing sin.
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Taqwa is simply have iman to Allah, His Rasuls, His Malaykas,following the teaching in Quran and avoid doing sin.
Peace Earthdom.
IMHO, through our thoughts, feelings and actions, our traits and characters are being moulded in our journey to strive in the path of Allah, we continuously are in the process of becoming and being......... muslim, salihan, hanif, amana, taqwa, mumeen, etc. Each word lives as a distinguised and unique concept to be incorporated and actualized in our race of acquiring a certain status and dignity in the eye of Allah according to His criterion and judgment.
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About a year since I was last online here and nothing has changed on this forum ;D
About your inquiry I don't think it is necessarily part of the "salat". God is listing a few instructions back to back in the passages at the end of chapter 17. Instead of stressing about this kind of stuff, ask yourself What exactly is salat? What is it that you want to/should achieve with salat (ie. what is the goal of salat)? Then you can proceed to understand further about the details. There have been many good articled and posts about this in the past, explaining that salat is not merely prostrating to the ground and reciting the same words every day.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg11795#msg11795Peace
Before becoming a Muslim I thought of religious rituals as brainwashing , forced conformity, establishment of group identity at the expense of individual freedom of worship etc and I never felt comfortable with ritualised religious behaviour. After becoming a Muslim,and through my study of Quran, I found I was required to do rituals - for ablution, ritual times for performing salat, rituals for killing and sacrificing animals, rituals for hajj and umrah. It has been a challenge, a struggle and a real test of my self discipline to do these religious rituals - part of my personal jihad. As a result, I asked myself why would God want us to perform religious rituals? What is the purpose of religious rituals? After praying and reflecting, my conclusions, so far, are that these rituals are God's recommended way of entering a "sacred " or "spiritual state" and consequently of bringing about a feeling of being connected to the Unseen and The Almighty. Also, I think that these rituals are the way God has given us to express reverence. They are a way of entering into complete submission and a way of sacrificing our ego.
At this stage of my development as a Muslim, I do think that salat = a ritual prayer. Not only because of the ritual of wudu and the mention of specific times, but also because of the historical and sociological understanding. The religious mindset of communities from Ibrahim's time to Prophet Muhammeds time performed religious rituals as an integral part of their every day life, because the people believed that through carrying out prayers and other religious rituals, God's / their gods protection was assured. Socially it was also a way of establishing solidarity and trust amongst a community and of redistributing wealth.So the question for me has become "how can I stop my ritual prayer from becoming meaningless and zombie like"?. I am finding that reflection about the purpose of my prayer, beginning at the time I start my ablution, helps. Also, I use English (my native language) instead of Arabic. I sometimes change the words of my prayer, to say different words of glorification.
Recently I have been thinking that if salat is for worshipping and glorifying God Alone, how does "Guide us on the straight path, the path of those whom you favor, not of those who deserve your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray" fit into the glorification of God. Actually, the Quran gives us words that glorify God alone so I wonder if it's better to use those. Is there any evidence of Al Fatehah becoming the ritual prayer later on, AFTER Prophet Muhammeds death?I still have questions in my mind about the specific times of the ritual prayers - fajr/dawn versus "when we rise in the morning" (or when we start our day), isha / night versus the start of the islamic night when the sun has set versus when we retire at night, the al wustaa / middle prayer versus when the sun begins to decline at noon? at sunset?. The climate in the region where Quran was revealed results in time being structured very differently from countries with different climates. Because of the heat during the day, people rise at dawn, finish work around 12 - 1pm, sleep in the afternoon and remain up late at night doing activities that people in cooler countries do during the day. The traditional understanding of prayer times fits this. It does not fit other climates / cultures where people do not sleep in the afternoon and do not rise at dawn to start their day. I am thinking that the spirit and intention of these timings = the start of OUR day / the middle of OUR day and the end of OUR day (when we retire at night). The regularity of our prayers is also important.
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Peace,
I take salat al-isha as the name says, a night prayer and I observe it when I go to bed. I live in a muslim society and people have given remarks before, but I deem it more correct to offer it to God before you sleep, especially so there is some time between glorifying God at sunset and it. And after I observe this night prayer I meditate and have some talk to God. This seems to be in order with that sura which talks about nightly activities in reverence of the Lord.
With the dawn prayer we should remember that we rose earlier in the morning in the past before there was electric light and it was probably not that awkward to observe this prayer then. In my opinion, the habits we have today with late nights and late mornings is not good for our health. We should revert to these habits of old times in my opinion, like going to sleep a few hours after sunset and then rise and shine in the early morning hours.
I have to work on this myself, going to bed early that is. One is always tempted to do one more last thing in the night and the hours fly away.
Our body chemistry is working best when we follow nature and not using artificial light and forcing our poor body to keep going through several hours of the night. Our ability for self-control and struggle for inner peace may be stalled by this behavior and I for one wants to change.
The tradition of night prayer shortly after complete darkness may originate from the fact that people simply went to sleep soon after that occasion. But I doubt it ever gets too late to observe it as long as it does not start to become dawn. This goes against the best possible treatment of our physical bodies though.
Finally, sorry for being tempted to make an off-topic reply. I know the topic is about 17111. Regarding that I must say that I believe the wordings of salat to be flexible, you can choose your wordings as long as they glorify God in the best possible manner. I also believe that a Believer should have some free talk, like a supplication with words not just always repeated like a robot.
However, I am against reciting verses with "say" (qul) because they are not aimed at God at all but human recipients. The traditional "extra suras" to recite include qul and I deem this to be futile. In that case handpicked wordings from other parts of Quran or custom phrases suit the case better.
Note that surah al-fateha is aimed straight at God and is therefore an optimal prayer to recite for God. I also read the "Our Lord of Heaven" used by Christians because it is not any blasphemous content in that prayer. It consists of 7 verses and is a good supplement in my opinion.
Hope you did not fall asleep from my gibberish and that something was useful of what I said. "Follow the best and ignore the rest".
God bless you
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After praying and reflecting, my conclusions, so far, are that these rituals are God's recommended way of entering a "sacred " or "spiritual state" and consequently of bringing about a feeling of being connected to the Unseen and The Almighty. Also, I think that these rituals are the way God has given us to express reverence. They are a way of entering into complete submission and a way of sacrificing our ego.
At this stage of my development as a Muslim, I do think that salat = a ritual prayer. Not only because of the ritual of wudu and the mention of specific times, but also because of the historical and sociological understanding. The religious mindset of communities from Ibrahim's time to Prophet Muhammeds time performed religious rituals as an integral part of their every day life, because the people believed that through carrying out prayers and other religious rituals, God's / their gods protection was assured. Socially it was also a way of establishing solidarity and trust amongst a community and of redistributing wealth.So the question for me has become "how can I stop my ritual prayer from becoming meaningless and zombie like"?. I am finding that reflection about the purpose of my prayer, beginning at the time I start my ablution, helps. Also, I use English (my native language) instead of Arabic. I sometimes change the words of my prayer, to say different words of glorification.
Recently I have been thinking that if salat is for worshipping and glorifying God Alone, how does "Guide us on the straight path, the path of those whom you favor, not of those who deserve your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray" fit into the glorification of God. Actually, the Quran gives us words that glorify God alone so I wonder if it's better to use those. Is there any evidence of Al Fatehah becoming the ritual prayer later on, AFTER Prophet Muhammeds death?Lena, can you share how you came to this conclusion that these rituals are commanded by God and that salat=ritual prayer to be a done at certain time, manner? And how does washing body parts and glorifying God and basically reciting to God what he wrote lead to being on a straight path?
If Alfajr is defined as the morning before sunrise then what does "quran alfajri" in 1778 mean?
If engaging in rituals and such helps, great but to say that God commanded is a serious statement to be made which comes with a stern warning from God. Are your understanding of salat based on the Koran or extra quranic influences?
If we study the Koran divorcing ourselves from outside influences then everything becomes clear and less confusing.
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Lena, can you share how you came to this conclusion that these rituals are commanded by God and that salat=ritual prayer to be a done at certain time, manner? And how does washing body parts and glorifying God and basically reciting to God what he wrote lead to being on a straight path?
If Alfajr is defined as the morning before sunrise then what does "quran alfajri" in 1778 mean?
If engaging in rituals and such helps, great but to say that God commanded is a serious statement to be made which comes with a stern warning from God. Are your understanding of salat based on the Koran or extra quranic influences?
If we study the Koran divorcing ourselves from outside influences then everything becomes clear and less confusing.
Salaam Just A Muslim
My understanding comes from the following Quranic verses that God commands believers to follow which to me constitute ritual religious behavioursAblution ritual
56 Oh you who believe, when you observe salat you shall wash your faces; wash your arms to the elbows; wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles.
This verse also explains the ritual for observing dry ablution as does Sura 443.Salat rituals - and recitation of Quran
"Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid.3113 They recite God's revelations through the night while prostrating.
4103 ....the Contact Prayers (salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night.
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed
17110 You shall not utter your Contact Prayers (Salat) too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone.
Standing, bowing , prostrating ritual
4137 Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon;you shall fall prostrate before the God who created them, if you truly worship Him alone.In the above verse God links prostrating to worship of God and in the verse below God links prostrating to Salat.
"4102 When you are with them and lead salat for them, let some of you stand guard; let them hold their weapons and let them stand behind you as you prostrate.2226 links bowing and prostrating
Also 4829 "Muhammad-the messenger of God, and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek God's blessings and approval"2238 links standing in submission to salat
"You shall consistently observe the Salat, especially the middle prayer, and stand before God in submission"The above verses plus many other verses in Quran link salat to worshipping God, link salat to standing, bowing and prostrating, link salat to specific times of the day and to the specific names of Salat al Fajr (245, Salat Al Esha (245 and Salat al Wusta(2.23. This indicates to me that salat = ritualised prayer/ worship of God. Further evidence is that those Muslims who practice ritual prayers that they say have been passed down to them from Prophet Muhammed via previous generations (even though they have corrupted these) call these prayers salat. They also observe Salat Al Fajr and Salat Al Esha (as well as others). I have read some discussions that challenge the meaning of salat as ritual prayers but because of the above verses and links I am still seeing salat as ritual prayer. Which clear Quranic verses do you think say otherwise?
Re your question "how does washing body parts and glorifying God and basically reciting to God what he wrote lead to being on a straight path"?
My first thoughts are that God details these ritual practices for believers to follow and if we obey and practice these, then we are following God's straight path. I mentioned in my previous post how I have come to see washing body parts is a ritualised act that begins the transfer of thoughts and reflections from the world of the profane (every day mundane tasks) to the unseen world of the sacred. In glorifying God and worshipping God I am remembering my obligation as a believer and I am demonstrating my trust in God that as a consequence he will fulfil his promise to guide me as a believer on his straight path. It is not that God needs to be worshipped, rather that prayer and worship are a healing and a benefit to believers. At this stage, I see ritualised prayer (as in ablution, specific prayer times, standing, bowing & prostrating and speaking in a moderate tone, and using words that worship God) as part of submitting to God because it requires me to surrender my ego. It opens me up to reflecting on my actions, repenting and seeking forgiveness and mercy, and to glorifying my Creator. I am open to using different words or words that are not in Quran to worship God, but the Quran was sent as a guide and mercy to believers, so it follows that using words of glorification that are found in Quran is the best practice. -
Peace,
Hmm... I have basically never put my eye in a hadith except to just look how crazy they are and I have not really been part of a muslim community, but I find prayers to be part of the religious activities. I simply cannot find any good way of sincerely glorify God without any form of intensified moment in devotion to God. Does that render me someone who believe in other hadith than God's hadith?
In addition to that, the first chapter of Quran is clearly a prayer. Study the text and you can see the reader is asking God for His services while reciting it. It is not meant as an informative text but to be used like.. a prayer to God. You implore God about something in it, the same as the Jesus prayer "Our Lord of Heaven".
There is not many other clear prayers in Quran, but I know one other "Oh Lord, admit me an honorable admittance, let me depart an honorable departure, grant me from You a powerful support. The Truth has prevailed, falsehood has vanished, falsehood will inevitably vanish". AQ 1780-81
Notice that the verse clearly starts with "and say" (wa qul) and is addressed to your "rabb", ie God. The verse clearly shows that there is some prayer involved in the worship of God or at least to use your voice to communicate with God or why would it else tell you to say?
Add the verse which tells which tone of voice to use during salat.
Why do you think I believe prayers to be valid part of the worship of God?
How do you "think" an inquiry you may have to God? Is not your voice a more natural tool?
I find it a dangerous step to state that prayers are an invalid practice in my opinion and warn against something which is clearly not forbidden but rather recommended.
Sorry that I am talking for Lena, but I was a bit annoyed when someone spreads falsehood about God, even if it is not on purpose.
And I accept if you do not pray, but please do not tell me I do something haraam for promoting prayers. Sorry if I may have sounded aggressive in this post, but I was actually pretty calm. Hope I have your understanding too. Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused.
God bless you