Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.
It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).
I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.
God bless you
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.
It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).
I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
I use He too, when referring to God, so no I am not offended. You are simply doing what is most natural and conventional in English, like you said other languages have different conventions. But thank you for your thoughtfulness.
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Hi,
I disagree with you. Story of Lot is not allegorical. I have read your past posts, however, your reasons why you think this story is allegorical are not clear.
Make you a deal? If you tell me why you feel why they are not allegorical I will tell you why I think they are allegorical. I mean that you should not argue against me but just give your reasons.
Sounds fair?
My reasons are this.
One of the first guidances and one of the very few guidances by Allah to us how to interpet the Quran takes up the issue of literal vs. allegorical.
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding
I am not claiming but I am suggesting that this verse must be kept in mind when reading the Quran and ALL verses should be under scrutiny. A verse like 6151 where it states Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you......... is quite clear, it is not to be taken allegorically. It also sets the standard of what a literal verse includes.
The story of Lot is always mentioned together with stories that are clearly allegorical. One example I can think of on top of my head is Noah which (if to be taken literally) means that Noah became 950 years old.
There are also contradictions in the Quran about Lot. If it was to be taken literally the story wouldn't have contradictions (compare 1181 to 37135 where the female not spared is either his wife or an old woman).
Whenever the story of Lot is mentioned it never has a verse beforehand telling prophet Muhammed to preach to the people. Instead it is always a beforehand verse where Allah is giving prophet Muhammed personal advice or there is no mention at all. In other words, there is no direct command from Allah to preach word-for-word that particular surah or verse.
Even if we would take the story of Lot literally it still does not hold enough evidence to forbid homosexuality. It is CLEARLY written that the transgression in question is MEN approaching MEN. It makes absolutely no sense to only forbid male homosexuality and not female. So 50% of the population can be homosexuals?
When comparing the story of Lot to other verses it is clear that Allah could not have destroyed the entire community because 50% of the population is transgressing the boundaries. I do not have the energy to look up the verses but I am sure that you agree with me that Allah would not kill our children for the wrong-doings of their fathers, right?
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In terms of things like seasonal festivals, if we understand it to be appreciating nature and what our Creator has bestowed upon us, I think it makes sense to celebrate and appreciate the season etc as Muslims. Appreciating the natural world and order seems to be part of being a Muslim to me. After all, the rest of creation around us is aligned and in submission to our Creator's design and will. So we are essentially joining them, when we too align ourselves with our Creator's guidance and so on.
I agree with you but tell that to the christians......In my country we celebrate Sankta Lucia, a Spanish(?) nun that lived hundreds of years ago. It just so happened that we celebrate a catholic saint in a protestant country on the very same time the pagans celebrate the winter soltice. I am not much for conspiracy theories but this one hmm hmm hmm looks like the bishop couln't get the mass to stop celebrating so he came up with the brilliant idea to super-impose a christian celebration on top of the pagan celebration.
One of the reasons why I never became christian was because of the masculine oppressive overtone. Instead I become a muslim confused
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Understanding the quran is also need to understand the previous scripture, it obvious the previous scripture mention about lot story and it clearly stated, those who do homosexuality should be punished to death. I think there is a lot of people who will agree that homosexuality is allowed, but why you must said it in here? This is the community where anti homosexuality. Our community is as free as homosexuality community. Like republican and democratic which is opposed each other.
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Make you a deal? If you tell me why you feel why they are not allegorical I will tell you why I think they are allegorical. I mean that you should not argue against me but just give your reasons.
Sounds fair?
My reasons are this.
One of the first guidances and one of the very few guidances by Allah to us how to interpet the Quran takes up the issue of literal vs. allegorical.
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding
I am not claiming but I am suggesting that this verse must be kept in mind when reading the Quran and ALL verses should be under scrutiny. A verse like 6151 where it states Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you......... is quite clear, it is not to be taken allegorically. It also sets the standard of what a literal verse includes.
The story of Lot is always mentioned together with stories that are clearly allegorical. One example I can think of on top of my head is Noah which (if to be taken literally) means that Noah became 950 years old.
There are also contradictions in the Quran about Lot. If it was to be taken literally the story wouldn't have contradictions (compare 1181 to 37135 where the female not spared is either his wife or an old woman).
Whenever the story of Lot is mentioned it never has a verse beforehand telling prophet Muhammed to preach to the people. Instead it is always a beforehand verse where Allah is giving prophet Muhammed personal advice or there is no mention at all. In other words, there is no direct command from Allah to preach word-for-word that particular surah or verse.
Even if we would take the story of Lot literally it still does not hold enough evidence to forbid homosexuality. It is CLEARLY written that the transgression in question is MEN approaching MEN. It makes absolutely no sense to only forbid male homosexuality and not female. So 50% of the population can be homosexuals?
When comparing the story of Lot to other verses it is clear that Allah could not have destroyed the entire community because 50% of the population is transgressing the boundaries. I do not have the energy to look up the verses but I am sure that you agree with me that Allah would not kill our children for the wrong-doings of their fathers, right?
I think there is no reason not to think that the old woman who is alluded to in 37.135 is the same woman that the messengers, when addressing Lut himself call his wife. The context is different. in the caso of the messengers addressing Lut, they are telling him about somebody who he knows well is close to him. Whereas en 37.135 we are being tol of a whole lot of prophets and their experiences and we are told thaxt all the adherents of Lut left with him except an old woman who was of those who stayed behind. Why would it make any difference that it was Lut's wife? We do not know her, she was no exemplary being to be made history of. I do not see contradiction between what is said en both ayas. Your exppectations might be that God makes a fuxx of her being the wife of Lut, but why should He indeed. He is not putting her either as a pinacle of wickedness, simply one of those who stayed. She was an old woman. God is not prying her apart and is giving more information. She was not a younf beautiful woman who did not go with Lut because she was living her life, she was old and may be she didn't want to leave behind her home or city in her old age. She might not have had the strength. Nowhere it is said that she was of the wicked. She chose for whatever reason. The Qur'an does not say that she stayed out of wickedness. She got the warning and she chose to stay.
As to the allegory of Noah, I read not long ago a text provided by a contributor to a Spansih forum which derserves to be taken into account. in the aya where it is spoken about Noah after reading what this colleague put I do not think is talking about anybody's age approaching 1000 years. It says in 29.14 he was among his people alfa sanatin il-la khamsin 3aman.
Why should two completely different words, one very close to the other and for the same purpose be used to say years? It says first he tarried among his people one thousand sana less fifty 3aman. Two different words and two different meanings. 3am is properly a year with 12 regular months. Sana is somethign else, it is not a fixed period but a periods of time which leaves its mark in the things and people.
The person who explained that takes it that in fact it is talking about 950 months which made him into a wheathered man. So the age is nothing fantastic, 950 months less 50 years would be 350 monts, plus the fifty years it comes to nearly 80 years, which is old but nothing miraculous.
Salaam
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Salam Huruf
Your answer is proof that the stories should not be taken literally and be used as evidence to forbid a certain behaviour in mankind. The fact that it could be argued against that Noah was not 950 years old when it says in the Quran
And We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers
With regards to the female in Lot's story it is exactly what you say, the context is different. If the story of Lot would be taken literally then there would be no differences. To make rules according to Islam on such shaky ground springs 37 into mind
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Understanding the quran is also need to understand the previous scripture, it obvious the previous scripture mention about lot story and it clearly stated, those who do homosexuality should be punished to death.
To understand and follow are two completely different things. I understand the older scriptures contradict the Quran in more ways than they agree. So what is it? So what should it be? we pick and choose which to follow? You do not pray three times, why not? It is clearly written in the bible prayer always come in three.
I think there is a lot of people who will agree that homosexuality is allowed, but why you must said it in here? This is the community where anti homosexuality. Our community is as free as homosexuality community. Like republican and democratic which is opposed each other.
And that is because they have seen Allah's guidance and seized to be homosexuals? Or are they just afraid to admit it? You have no way of knowing because nobody will be honest with you as long as you say they should be put to death.
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God has prohibited homosexuality. God has designed us and He knows what is best for us; He cares about us and wants us to act in our own best interest but Satan wants to make us feel like His rules are against our own interest. Remember what he told Adam and Eve about the forbidden tree? The same is going on here. Satan wants us to think God's rules are outdated and against our interest and that God made those rules without caring about us. He wants us to think "see! God's rules teach hate!"
But it is not The Bible nor the Quran that teach hate. That's men that teach that. And the reality is this- God knows what's right for us and what's not right for us.
And there's quite a bit about homosexuality that the media does not talk about. God does not prohibit homosexuality for no reason. He knows what we do not know.
Like, for example, why is it that homosexuals are such a tiny percentage of the overall population and such a disproportionately large percentage of the child molesters?
Gay activists might say it's because gay people's sexuality is messed up because they're discriminated against. But gay people can go to gay bars and gay men are just as promiscuous as straight men- so it's not hard to find willing gay partners. So what is the explanation for my question?
Mainstream discourse which is controlled by the media will not address my question and such discourse would prefer that this not be examined. If this issue is examined, the truths it would bring to light would not be pleasant for the activists promoting their agenda.
As to those who say think that sexuality is fixed at birth and does not change and people are either born gay or born straight, I have some statistics that might be a little awkward for your cause........
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_sexual_orientation#History_of_sexual_abuse
Now, according to the American Psychiatric Association, there is no link. Yet this is in blatant contradiction of the empirical data. So you can trust the American Psychiatric Association or you can trust the facts.
The reality is that a lot of these gay men were not born gay- they had something happen to them when they were very young that warped their sexuality. I am only stating what is blatantly obvious from statistics such as this "Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation."
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God has prohibited homosexuality.
Quranic reference?
God has designed us and He knows what is best for us; He cares about us and wants us to act in our own best interest but Satan wants to make us feel like His rules are against our own interest. Remember what he told Adam and Eve about the forbidden tree? The same is going on here. Satan wants us to think God's rules are outdated and against our interest and that God made those rules without caring about us. He wants us to think "see! God's rules teach hate!
Satan's biggest trick is to think we are doing Allah's work. In the name of God we have killed, persecuted and hated. In the name of God we have forbidden things without the authority of God.
And the reality is this- God knows what's right for us and what's not right for us.
So your job as a man is not to fuel hatred in the name of God, not telling others what God has forbidden without clear and consistent guidance from the Quran. Your job is to let God be the judge of all others.
Like, for example, why is it that homosexuals are such a tiny percentage of the overall population and such a disproportionately large percentage of the child molesters?
Reference? Why is it that the majority of people that kill in the name of God also think homosexuality is prohibited by God? Please brother NotSure, you are just speculating
Gay activists might say it's because gay people's sexuality is messed up because they're discriminated against. But gay people can go to gay bars and gay men are just as promiscuous as straight men- so it's not hard to find willing gay partners. So what is the explanation for my question?
And this has what to do with God?
Mainstream discourse which is controlled by the media will not address my question and such discourse would prefer that this not be examined. If this issue is examined, the truths it would bring to light would not be pleasant for the activists promoting their agenda.
Has it ever occurred to you that mainstream media likes controversy? If you as an anti-gay person would just be quiet then media would not be interested in the subject. Why is that Lars Vilks has such media coverage? Because of the response from the muslims.
As to those who say think that sexuality is fixed at birth and does not change and people are either born gay or born straight........
I am starting to doubt that I understand you at all. Are you claiming that homosexuality is not fixed at birth? Then why are you posting links where it states
Research has shown that sexual orientation may be a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. The American Psychological Association stated, "Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex rolesI have this crazy idea that I would like to share with you and the other anti-homosexuals out there.
Has it ever occurred to you that the guidance found in the Quran has to do with transgression and not sexual preference? Has it occurred to you that if it was to be that God prohibits homosexuality then why in the name of God does the Quran not mention women as well? Could it be that the male homosexuals in Lot's society had transgressed the boundaries of chastity? In many stories where God has destroyed societies it is but a few individuals that are to blame. What does this tell you? To me it is quite a clear message that only a handful of people in power can destroy a whole society.
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"God has prohibited homosexuality."
Quranic reference?"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates?! Nay, but ye are forward folk." They said, "If you do not desist, O Lut, you will surely be of those evicted." He said, "Indeed, I am, toward your deed, of those who detest . My Lord, save me and my family from what they do." So We saved him and his family, all, except an old woman among those who remained behind. Then We DESTROYED the others. And We rained on them a rain. And dreadful is the rain of those who have been warned.
"We also sent Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds!"
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Are you homosexual Emil?
Why are you asking?
Sorry brother Sonny, I am a happily married man.
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates?! Nay, but ye are forward folk." They said, "If you do not desist, O Lut, you will surely be of those evicted." He said, "Indeed, I am, toward your deed, of those who detest . My Lord, save me and my family from what they do." So We saved him and his family, all, except an old woman among those who remained behind. Then We DESTROYED the others. And We rained on them a rain. And dreadful is the rain of those who have been warned.
Salam Hicham
Homosexuality includes both men and women. That is the Quranic reference I was looking for.
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Emil, I am not interested in debating you. I think you have decided what the Quran says before you read the Quran.
I read the Quran before I truly believed in God and I read it before I had any knowledge of the old and new testament. Hadith I never heard about.......I didn't like homosexuals then and I do not like them now.
If you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I started searching about homosexuality in the Quran because I wanted to prove that it wasn't only me but even Allah said it was forbidden. I was very disappointed when I could not find any clear evidence.
So I was like you but finally I gave up.......I could not justify my standpoint anymore (using the Quran). And just like you I tried for a while to evade any question that was asking me to produce Quranic references. -
I didn't like homosexuals then and I do not like them now.
As everyone her is so eager telling they personally don't like homosexuals (even if they agree the Quran does not forbid it) I feel obliged to state
yes, I have some dear friends who are lesbian, and I know some kind people who are gay.Call me as you like, I am not interested in your judgement Sonny and co., as it is my creator who will judge me.
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As everyone her is so eager telling they personally don't like homosexuals (even if they agree the Quran does not forbid it) I feel obliged to state
yes, I have some dear friends who are lesbian, and I know some kind people who are gay.Call me as you like, I am not interested in your judgement Sonny and co., as it is my creator who will judge me.
Salam
My sister is lesbian, I love her very much. My favourite teacher in university was gay, I respected him highly. The best actress in the world is Jodie Foster and the best artist ever is Freddie Mercury.
I apologise for making you think that I do not like homosexuals. I should have expressed myself better. To tell you the truth I don't know how to explain it without making stupid comparisons................I just find homosexuality to be weird and I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can get turned on by the same sex.....just like I cannot understand how anyone in the entire world can enjoy watching ice-skating............I guess it has to do with me being very heterosexual.......... but that doesnt mean I in any way judge them or think that they are wrong and should be stopped.
Once again, I apologise.
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My sister is lesbian, I love her very much. My favourite teacher in university was gay, I respected him highly.
Aaaaa, this is why you support this "gay" stuff, I was suspicious about you since the first post, this is why I asked if you are gay. ;D
This is the problem with people who came to islam from western countries where homosexuality is allowed so they are trying to apologize and defend gay people even when they know they are wrong.
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Salam Huruf
Your answer is proof that the stories should not be taken literally and be used as evidence to forbid a certain behaviour in mankind. The fact that it could be argued against that Noah was not 950 years old when it says in the Quran
And We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers
With regards to the female in Lot's story it is exactly what you say, the context is different. If the story of Lot would be taken literally then there would be no differences. To make rules according to Islam on such shaky ground springs 37 into mind
I do not think you got the point about the age of Nuh and I don't know either why you refute me saying that from those you cannot make rules. I did not pretend at any moment that any rules hould be derived from that.
What I was pointing out was not that the two women were two different women, but that in fact it could be the same woman but the consideration awarded to her was different because of the context. I think it is the same woman if whe was the only one from the entourage of Lut that did not escape and in one place we are told that the wife of Lut stayed behind then you have to conclude that the only pperson of his entourage who stayed was that person, only one.
That is not allegorical, I do not think. If there is an allegory it would be at the level of the whole of the narration, but what you say is not a proof of it being allegorical neither in the case of Lut, how would the Qur'an use follwoing one another two words signifying the same thing, which they do not. The Qur'an does nto do that. So it si not 950 years, that is just a readingon which many people may agree, but which with good reason can be refuted. It may have been 950 sana, but it was not 950 gaman. If we start that way we can make the Qur'an say anything.
Another thing which you have mixed into what I have said and which I have not even hinted at, is that rules should nbe made on those grounds. Where have I said that?
To start with what I keep saying, but nobody ever takes any notice is that the very concept of heterosexual and homsexual is bullshit. That is labels very comfortable to sppit out brainlessly right or wrong and not to have to think or understand. That is what it is. There is no such thing as heterosexual or homosecual or slesexual or bestialsexual or whatever fancy people make take to camuflage other things.
Vileness is vileness whether with th cat, the opposite sex, the same sex but differnt animal... That is diverting the questi?n of the individual psychology and it is very disorienting. So you were off target attributing me any derivation of rules from anything. But the two ayas you mention do not have to be necessarily allegorical. May be they may be, but they can also be taken as factual with no trouble. Of course, sana would not be year, but month, jus like with mortgages, 360 months, nothing unusual...
Salaam
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Conclusion
God clearly stated in Quran that homosexuality is forbidden, in order to understand you must read entire story of prophet Lut(Lot). Admin please lock this topic ;D
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."