Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
-
Conclusion
God clearly stated in Quran that homosexuality is forbidden, in order to understand you must read entire story of prophet Lut(Lot). Admin please lock this topic ;D
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people." -
I do not think you got the point about the age of Nuh and I don't know either why you refute me saying that from those you cannot make rules. I did not pretend at any moment that any rules hould be derived from that.
What I was pointing out was not that the two women were two different women, but that in fact it could be the same woman but the consideration awarded to her was different because of the context. I think it is the same woman if whe was the only one from the entourage of Lut that did not escape and in one place we are told that the wife of Lut stayed behind then you have to conclude that the only pperson of his entourage who stayed was that person, only one.
That is not allegorical, I do not think. If there is an allegory it would be at the level of the whole of the narration, but what you say is not a proof of it being allegorical neither in the case of Lut, how would the Qur'an use follwoing one another two words signifying the same thing, which they do not. The Qur'an does nto do that. So it si not 950 years, that is just a readingon which many people may agree, but which with good reason can be refuted. It may have been 950 sana, but it was not 950 gaman. If we start that way we can make the Qur'an say anything.
Another thing which you have mixed into what I have said and which I have not even hinted at, is that rules should nbe made on those grounds. Where have I said that?
To start with what I keep saying, but nobody ever takes any notice is that the very concept of heterosexual and homsexual is bullshit. That is labels very comfortable to sppit out brainlessly right or wrong and not to have to think or understand. That is what it is. There is no such thing as heterosexual or homosecual or slesexual or bestialsexual or whatever fancy people make take to camuflage other things.
Vileness is vileness whether with th cat, the opposite sex, the same sex but differnt animal... That is diverting the questi?n of the individual psychology and it is very disorienting. So you were off target attributing me any derivation of rules from anything. But the two ayas you mention do not have to be necessarily allegorical. May be they may be, but they can also be taken as factual with no trouble. Of course, sana would not be year, but month, jus like with mortgages, 360 months, nothing unusual...
Salaam
Salam Huruf
Sorry for not being clear. Me not being clear plus that I misunderstood your post a little made my response wrong. I was not refuting you at all, I was actually agreeing with you. I was coming from the view that if a verse or story in the Quran is to be taken literally to the extent it is made into divine law (for example prohibiting homosexuality) there must be absolutely no doubt. You disagreeing with the age of Noah showed me that the story of Noah can be taken literally only until after all questions are answered. Was he really 950 years that at least my Quran claims or is it a mis-interpretation or what? Who knows, let's sort it out.
Noah was only an example from the top of my head, mostly because of his incredibly high age, something that at least for me is strong evidence that Noahs story holds a message rather than literal translation.........Perhaps it was a bad choice of an allegorical story from the Quran.In a clumsy way I was trying to say that if the story of Lot is to be used as a reason to forbid homosexuality, the "other" side still has a lot of things to prove. They have yet to prove how they can forbid homosexuality when women are not even mentioned in any of the verses they so far has produced.
Peace bro, sorry for the misunderstanding. If you could see me reading your post you would see this bravo
-
Aaaaa, this is why you support this "gay" stuff, I was suspicious about you since the first post, this is why I asked if you are gay. ;D
This is the problem with people who came to islam from western countries where homosexuality is allowed so they are trying to apologize and defend gay people even when they know they are wrong.
I take it you don't know any "gay" people?
I don't understand, before you said you were from Europe and now you got a problem with muslims from western countries? So where are you from really?I gotta give it to you though brother. You have skillfully avoided to give any proof that homosexuality is forbidden according to the Quran and yet you have not changed your mind hail
ps homosexuality encompasses both genders.
-
Peace Sonny,
I doubt Emil is supporting homosexuality but rather saying that we should not engage in hatred and oppression against these people due to their abnormal gender identity. This kind of behavior is not fit for someone proclaiming to be a muslim for various reasons.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure that some people who indulge in homosexual acts, especially females, are doing so for their own vain desires, but that is between them and God. Misleading media and social conditions are adding fuel to the fire and are to blame for the behavior of people who voluntarily get involved in homosexual acts while not being truly homosexual. Also, the phenomenon with bisexuality is noteworthy as this person can actually choose to be "righteous" by choosing the natural gender.
I am not qualified to say which homosexual individuals are misguided and led into this behavior because of various abusive circumstances or disinformation, but I am sure many of the homosexual people are becoming that because of abnormalities.
I remember cases when I was young and females got involved in lesbian acts as they grew weary of deception from their male counterparts. I have no information if they reverted from their behavior later though.
From a normalized viewpoint if we look at anatomical design and the reproduction system, the homosexual approach is utterly abnormal and can therefore not be considered logical behavior. However, if it is a birth defect and these people are attracted to the same sex because of abnormal body hormones, signal substances in the brain, we should rationally classify this condition as a developmental dysfunction requiring certain tolerance and special treatment. I think this is the support Emil wants to give homosexuals.
Do you treat people with conditions like ADHD or autism in the same aggressive manner as you wish to show the homosexuals? How do that get along with an islamic living?
I am not supporting homosexuality more than you do, but I am having a certain level of tolerance as I am sure that this is a birth defect, probably including psychological conditions which cause this behavior. Killing or harming a homosexual is like doing the same act against a disabled person simply for the fact that this person has a deficiency.
I have not heard about curing homosexuality, but hypothetically I am sure it is possible to treat mild forms of this condition with modern medicine by balancing hormones and possible surgery as well as therapy. More severe cases, for example, females born with male genitalia, are probably more difficult however. Simply "beating the homosexuality out someone" is unfortunately not possible. Threats and maltreatment will absolutely not help the affected person.
Where I may agree with your stance towards this issue is where you say we should not encourage this behavior. According to me, in an optimal society, the homosexuality should be regarded as a birth defect, or if induced at a later stage be considered a psychological disorder. On the other hand, these individuals require support and help by the community to find the right way.
If they are beyond treatment all we can do is to accept them with the birth defect that they have, and not mistreat them, as this is the same as mentally tormenting a living being. God made life sacred and by harming even a disabled person is a crime against God's law.
We must consider that animals, in many cases share many of our genes and are thus biologically quite like us. Homosexuality among animals is prominent, a certain percentage although low of them can sometimes show a homosexual behavior. These beings are not apparently involved in the test (for salvation) and are seemingly mindless only driven by instincts, still they commit a crime against nature according to the aggressive opponents of homosexuality.
Since this kind of animal homosexuality is not affected by the complex functions of a human brain, we can conclude that it can be a birth defect and not only an imagined condition.
Like someone mentioned before in this thread, maybe homosexuals are part of the test of our patience and tolerance. I am sure homosexuals are not thrown in Hell on these grounds alone, and if they are faithful Believers and do many good deeds they might have a chance of Heaven despite their deficiency. However, who is going to Hell or not is a judgment up to God.
I am sure however, if someone is intentionally involved in homosexual behavior without a birth defect of any kind this is probably less likely if even possible to be forgiven for by God, but yet here the only true judgment is up to our Master.
I hope this post will be of any use. I gathered all my previously acquired knowledge of psychology and went into some philosophical thinking and this was the result. It takes education to gain increased tolerance for what we do not know or understand. If you dislike homosexuality then I understand you because I do that too, but we cannot as I mentioned above mistreat these people because of a birth defect. On the other hand these "pride festivals" and extreme vulgarity involved I despise, but not much more than the vulgarity of the general population and media.
God bless you
-
Salam Huruf
Sorry for not being clear. Me not being clear plus that I misunderstood your post a little made my response wrong. I was not refuting you at all, I was actually agreeing with you. I was coming from the view that if a verse or story in the Quran is to be taken literally to the extent it is made into divine law (for example prohibiting homosexuality) there must be absolutely no doubt. You disagreeing with the age of Noah showed me that the story of Noah can be taken literally only until after all questions are answered. Was he really 950 years that at least my Quran claims or is it a mis-interpretation or what? Who knows, let's sort it out.
Noah was only an example from the top of my head, mostly because of his incredibly high age, something that at least for me is strong evidence that Noahs story holds a message rather than literal translation.........Perhaps it was a bad choice of an allegorical story from the Quran.In a clumsy way I was trying to say that if the story of Lot is to be used as a reason to forbid homosexuality, the "other" side still has a lot of things to prove. They have yet to prove how they can forbid homosexuality when women are not even mentioned in any of the verses they so far has produced.
Peace bro, sorry for the misunderstanding. If you could see me reading your post you would see this bravo
That is ok, Emil, you are nice and polite person. And I am a sister, not a brother, as far as I know. The thread being what it is, one never knows.
-
That is ok, Emil, you are nice and polite person. And I am a sister, not a brother, as far as I know. The thread being what it is, one never knows.
In all these discussions we have engaged in and I never knew you were a sister!!! Doesnt change anything of course handshake
@MAN OF FAITH
Very good post, I wish I had your rethorical talent hail
-
It is clear from the Koran and the Bible that homosexuality does not please God. It is also clear in both books how God expects the righteous to respond. He expects us to make our viewpoint known then walk away.
In a good society, the majority will know that something such as homosexuality carries a negative hue. They will also know that it displeases God. Furthermore, they will know that God is the one who will make the final judgement.
Therefore, the homosexual should be left alone to get on with his/her life knowing that they will be safe - as long as they do not cause problems for others.
Societies should have clear norms. If people opt out of these norms they should be tolerated as long as they are not harming themselves or others.
In the end, it is between the individual and God.
Peace. -
Salam Man of Faith,
I respect your intent to mediate, however, in this sentence
On the other hand, I am pretty sure that some people who indulge in homosexual acts, especially females, are doing so for their own vain desires
you are not fair. Why should the desires of females be more vain than those of men? Just because they can't find the promise of 3021 in many men and therefore look for it in other women? Though it is true that the sexual organs of men and women fit best into each other, so in theory they should be ideal partners, but in reality there are often all kinds of mistreatment. So, I see more vain desire in a relationship (or even just sexual contact) that is not grounded in mutual understanding and shared values. Both may happen with same or opposite sex. -
I gotta give it to you though brother. You have skillfully avoided to give any proof that homosexuality is forbidden according to the Quran and yet you have not changed your mind hail
ps homosexuality encompasses both genders.
I really don't know are you being ignorant or blind or maybe both? btw not trying to insult you.
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."Qur'an 2755
"Will you indeed approach males in lust excluding women?"Qur'an 2929
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."Do you see it now?
-
Peace Reee,
Sorry that you were offended, the meaning I wanted to get forth is that females are often more open to this kind of relationship, ie lesbian contact, and that even if they are not truly born homosexual but rather vain desire. This is from my observation and it might be that females are more open about their activities and in truth the likelihood is the same between the sexes. It is particularly popular to be so-called bisexual and that seems to be more prominent in females, however I might be wrong due to the varying openness about the behavior.
Secondly, if you read that it would be more vain in females I must have formulated myself poorly. It is the same level of vainness in both males and females, and I do not know how you came to this conclusion from my text.
Finally, in the beginning of my post I was addressing those who engage in homosexual activity without being born homosexual and not those who are born that way. That is why I call it vain desire.
There are two types of people, some born that way and some who get lured into this activity. It seems like many people can innately be attracted by the same sex, so it can be a sinful behavior too.
Hope this clarification plus my original post sorts things out.
God bless you
-
I really don't know are you being ignorant or blind or maybe both? btw not trying to insult you.
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."
Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."
Qur'an 2755
"Will you indeed approach males in lust excluding women?"
Qur'an 2929
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."Please brother look up the word "homosexuality" in the dictionary. After that, give me the Quranic verse that forbids it.
-
Please brother look up the word "homosexuality" in the dictionary. After that, give me the Quranic verse that forbids it.
Dude word homosexuality is not even 100 years old, are you expecting to find it in the Quran?
http//chronicle.com/blognetwork/edgeofthewest/files/2013/03/facepalm_gif_by_thatweirdo7.jpgYou are very very ignorant indeed. You just can't handle the fact that Quran forbids homosexuality because you sister and friend are gays.
I gave you 4 verses from the Quran which clearly talk againts homosexuality. Get you facts straight mate.
-
Dude word homosexuality is not even 100 years old, are you expecting to find it in the Quran?
You are very very ignorant indeed. You just can't handle the fact that Quran forbids homosexuality because you sister and friend are gays.
I gave you 4 verses from the Quran which clearly talk againts homosexuality. Get you facts straight mate.Ok.........I will try to re-phrase my question.
What is the interpretation of homosexuality in the dictionary?
Where in the Quran can we find the same or similar description?
-
Ok.........I will try to re-phrase my question.
What is the interpretation of homosexuality in the dictionary?
Where in the Quran can we find the same or similar description?
You openly reject Quran which says many times that homosexuality is forbidden. I'm really insulted as a muslim everytime when someone says that homosexuality isn't forbidden in islam despite verses in Quran which clearly talks against homosexuality as a one of the biggest sins.
I will copy few verses one more time maybe you will understand, one day.
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."Qur'an 2755
"Will you indeed approach males in lust excluding women?"Qur'an 2929
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful." -
I think there is no reason not to think that the old woman who is alluded to in 37.135 is the same woman that the messengers, when addressing Lut himself call his wife. The context is different. in the caso of the messengers addressing Lut, they are telling him about somebody who he knows well is close to him. Whereas en 37.135 we are being tol of a whole lot of prophets and their experiences and we are told thaxt all the adherents of Lut left with him except an old woman who was of those who stayed behind.
Then how abot 783
"We saved him and his family, except for his ; she was of those who were destroyed."I think each verses in the Quran correlated each other,and I think too if the old woman is Luth's wife.
Conclusion
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."
Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."Peace Sonny.
You're dead in the term of straight point in this debate.The funny things about you is you repeatedly posted the verses about Luth in many pages without care about another reply.
So that's why bro Emil also repeatedly posted about don't take the verse literally , but it seems you ignored his advice.That's why this discussion never go to the straight point.Myself is not a pro-gay activist nor ever befriend with them, but I sympatize with them after reading some articles from scientist or psycollogyst, that born gay is exist.Not all gay to be categorized as adultery except Sodom's case.
I already told you, that faahisya in 780 is homosexuality, because homosexs already happened before Luth's era, but it seems you ignore it.You ignore and avoid the posts that actually tackle your argument but replying or quote the post which you considered as "weak".
-
You openly reject Quran which says many times that homosexuality is forbidden. I'm really insulted as a muslim everytime when someone says that homosexuality isn't forbidden in islam despite verses in Quran which clearly talks against homosexuality as a one of the biggest sins.
I will copy few verses one more time maybe you will understand, one day.
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."Qur'an 2755
"Will you indeed approach males in lust excluding women?"Qur'an 2929
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."Peace Sonny,
I understand you feel strongly about this topic, but others might too. Based on their interpretation, the Quran does not condemn homosexuality - women approaching women are not included which can be significant - and they do not want to say something about the Quran that might not be true. They are simply using some caution.
Out of interest, according to the views of 'traditional' Muslims, do you think its acceptable for them to call us disbelievers for following the Quran only?
-
You openly reject Quran which says many times that homosexuality is forbidden. I'm really insulted as a muslim everytime when someone says that homosexuality isn't forbidden in islam despite verses in Quran which clearly talks against homosexuality as a one of the biggest sins.
I will copy few verses one more time maybe you will understand, one day.
Qur'an 26165
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."
Qur'an 781
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."
Qur'an 2755
"Will you indeed approach males in lust excluding women?"
Qur'an 2929
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."So you refuse to answer a simple question? Why is that?
Is it because you will be caught in a trap? You say that homosexuality is forbidden according to the Quran. I ask you what homosexuality means. Anyone capable of opening a dictionary can answer that so what I am asking of you is not a tall order.
If you want to forbid homosexuality by a literal interpretation of the Quran, then the Quran must encompass the meaning of homosexuality......Which it doesnt so I can only take your refusal as a sign that you have realized this, therefore instead of admitting to your misunderstanding you keep posting the same verses over and over again.
-
Peace Reee,
Sorry that you were offended, the meaning I wanted to get forth is that females are often more open to this kind of relationship, ie lesbian contact, and that even if they are not truly born homosexual but rather vain desire. This is from my observation and it might be that females are more open about their activities and in truth the likelihood is the same between the sexes. It is particularly popular to be so-called bisexual and that seems to be more prominent in females, however I might be wrong due to the varying openness about the behavior.
Secondly, if you read that it would be more vain in females I must have formulated myself poorly. It is the same level of vainness in both males and females, and I do not know how you came to this conclusion from my text.
Finally, in the beginning of my post I was addressing those who engage in homosexual activity without being born homosexual and not those who are born that way. That is why I call it vain desire.
There are two types of people, some born that way and some who get lured into this activity. It seems like many people can innately be attracted by the same sex, so it can be a sinful behavior too.
Hope this clarification plus my original post sorts things out.
God bless you
Salam Man of Faith
It seems you didn't get my point. If you just look at the media, it may seem that lust, vain desire (get as much as you can from whoever it is) is the main thing in homosexual acts, but if you know people personnally, you see they (at least the ones I know) just want to have a partner who understands them instead of suppressing them. i can live wihtout "it" as long as I don't find a man who accepts and respects me as equal, but I understand many can't or don't want, and then a loving partner of the same sex might be better that an unhealthy, destroying partnership with the opposite sex. That's why I don't care so much about this "born or not born" argument. -
I was born muslim and I'm muslims my entire life and now some western people who are not muslims at all and have no idea what islam is teaching me about my faith, about islam. Please , GTFO
Your avatar is full of rage and you are full of rage. What is that to do with islam?
No matter how enraged you get, you are not going to be God nor people are going to be impressed with your bad manners and lack of adab. Some might even think that you are a closet gay. But, I do not know, you might even take that as a compliment. Raging people are very hard to guess.
Salaam