Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
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I bet you talk about me ;D
Btw in my opinion people have right to be whatever they like to be, I dont care even if they start to marry animals, not my problem.
Thing that bothers me here is that some people, including you, actually trying to say that homosexuality is not forbidden in islam? I gave you verses which talk about this, I can give you more of them from previous scriptures like Torah, God was always against this so how can you say its allowed in islam despite all proof?I think killing people just because they are gay is sin and I'm against that, but to say that homosexuality is allowed in islam is blasphemy.
If you think that homosexuality is allowed in Islam than give me just ONE proof for your claims and I promise I will leave islam 4ever?.
Peace be with you, Sonny.
I'm sure everyone here on this thread are against the idea of homosexuality, so please don't misunderstand. I think what people are trying to say is that, if we see a homosexual, we have no right to simply execute that individual as there is no law prescribed in the Quran concerning this matter. Instead of showing hatred against them, we can try to bring them back to the natural ways of life, i.e. to try to convert them into being heterosexuals through any sort of medical help or anything like that if it's possible. If nothing is possible, then we should leave it up to God to pass His judgement for them in the Day of Judgement.
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http//i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae179/vader1230/bth_bullshit.gif
This is solution for gay problem ==>> elektro voodoo
Homosexuals have been subject to attacks and some have been brutally beaten and killed. This is a terrible crime and if that's a joke, it is in no way humourous.
In terms of the confusion issue mentioned somewhere on here I can't say for sure but some may think they are homosexual or bisexual but they may not be because it is possible to be attracted to the same sex and when women or men oversexualise themselves, to be reminded of sexual urges. This does not make one homosexual or bisexual though. Just like a general apprehension and fear of something for example does not mean one has an actual phobia. Do we sometimes over-label ourselves?
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You clearly reject Quran just because you are trying to defend gays you know. People who made these translations are scholars of islam and ancient arabic language and who are you to say they are all wrong? Who are you man?
I haven't seen any scholar of islam and ancient arabic language on this forum, Sonny. I am not saying they are wrong because I am not talking to them, I am talking to you and you are not a scholar of islam or ancient arabic language. Are these scholars important to you? Are you following what they say? Still you haven't answered me any question that I asked you. Why is that? Are you afraid to make your own conclusion without a scholar's tafsir?
Lets say, even if Quran does not talk about homosexuality, according to your weird logic we are allowed to eat our own poop like pigs do just because is not stated in Quran!!!?? This is kindergarten logic
You never ate your own poop? By God you are one strange puppy, I thought everyone did that eat
If you want to eat poop, go ahead.........It will have absolutely no impact on my understanding of the Quran.
If it is such a grave sin to eat poop Allah will judge you, not me. I cannot in the name Islam tell you it is wrong......I could tell you in the name of medicine or in the name of etiquette that it absolutely foul, but I could never think you are a lesser muslim than me.There is no such a thing as traditional muslim and new age muslim, you are muslim or you are not.
But there is such a thing called stagnation and it is the killer of all religions. The Quran is very fundamental but it encompasses everything. It seems that Allah understands that people and generations are different. There is even a verse that confirms this "and we have made you into different nations and tribes so you may recognize eachother". Sounds familiar? Your scholars have successfully stopped time by sticking to old ideas that go against the very book they believe in. They have stuck their head in the sand for so long they have missed that Allah has changed the world. They have failed to do the job they are supposed to do and that is to make sure Islam is given the chance to progress along with people, not holding them back.............sorry offtopic
Please answer my questions.
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I gave you verses which talk about this, I can give you more of them from previous scriptures like Torah, God was always against this so how can you say its allowed in islam despite all proof?
Sonny my dear brother. Do you know that prophet Lot had sex with his daughters according to older scriptures? I would be careful to use other references than the Quran, otherwise your whole argument would be completely void.
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Peace Family,
This is not our creation, but God's, he creates what he wills, and this gay issue
is a test between humility and arrogance. We cannot turn personal Bias into law.
I like Emil have a problem with gays, but I am muslim so my judgement is based
in deen. As emotional as we may feel about this subject, we are muslims first and
must judge accordingly. As far as I know, God has not explicitly given us authority
to jail, execute, harass, banish, discriminate, or oppress gays, just for being gay,
but what God has given us is the right to enforce anti-lewdness laws and that
appears to be our limit.Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion
beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray,
and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them
whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them
at the Sacred Mosque (Masjid), unless they attack you therein. If they attack you,
you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.peace
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Thing that bothers me here is that some people, including you, actually trying to say that homosexuality is not forbidden in islam?...
You have misunderstood what i said. I stated that same-sex sexual activities are lewd.
Also, I have to disagree that the Quran is against Feminism. Men and women have Rights in the Quran, yes they are differences, but all have rights.
Women can be rulers if they wanted to, just like the Queen of Sheba. She was the queen before and after she submitted to God, nothing was said negative/against her for being a Queen, but instead just for worshiping the Sun. In fact, she criticizes Kings because they usually make the living situation worse, maybe because of their tyranny.
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WOW!!!
What a heated discussion. I have a personally aspect to this, my father is gay. He first felt this way when he was about 12 and tried to kill himself, as he came from a religious family. My grandfather, his father tried to "beat the gay" out of him. As he grew he suppressed these feelings and married my mother, who had me and my sister. 10yrs of trying to hide/fight his urges, my mother found him with women's clothing and a "male" friend. My family ended as my mom divorced and kept us from our father. My mom did remarry and I have a great step dad. I have spoken to my father since, I call him once in a while to see how he is doing, if he needs anything. I have seen people who seem to have no choice, but then I have seen an abused women who changes to having women companions due to her past male issues. I don't know if ppl are born gay or not, I just will not transgress upon their rights as human beings, perhaps it is a test for our humanity. I found it hard to believe ppl want to mess up their lives, like they have nothing better to do than to say.. I need drama, I know I will be gay! Nature has homosexuality in it among other things, so I don't know. I would not disown my children if they were gay or transgender, I would pray for them and be there as a parent.
I feel they (gays)have that freedom to do with their life as they want and God will do as he pleases with them, does not mean I don't like homosexuality, it destroyed my family. But to just hate a group of ppl without any mercy, is something I fear God will judge me on. You can hate the act, but you can't oppress another, they will do what they want anyway. I have not seen a punishment in Quran for gays being death. I also think Lot had to do with gang raping of men and the fact they were heterosexual choosing to cause corruption in the land. Homosexuality has existed before Lot so it was not something new, from what I have studied.
I also feel torn when I see a committed gay couple raising an orphan and taking care of a child, when on the other hand there is a women with 5 kids to 5 different men abusing every system out there. Which is worse? IMO the woman with the kids. There is a gay couple here at work that adopted 2 children, those children are not gay and they themselves are married with an established value of commitment from what they observed growing up.
Allahu Alam
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The "gay-marriage" activists have successfully dumbed-down society's debate over this issue. They have dumbed the discussion down in their favor by making two separate issues appear as one
the first issue Is it permissible to commit injustice against gay people? (I.E bully, harass, engage in violence against them, etc.)
the second issue is homosexuality condoned by Scripture
There is straightforward verses in both the Quran and the Bible that are obviously making it clear that homosexual acts are sinful. As for the first issue- yes of course it's wrong to be cruel towards gays. But- to give an example- someone from this thread cited a statistic that gays are four times more likely to commit suicide that straight people. Is that sad? Yes. Do I feel pity for those people? Yes. Is it relevant to how we should interpret what is clearly stated in scripture? No. Cruelty is wrong period but cruelty towards gays is besides the point in this issue.
Rather than try to make themselves conform to God's desires, to many people are trying to make Fod conform to their desires.
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The "gay-marriage" activists have successfully dumbed-down society's debate over this issue. They have dumbed the discussion down in their favor by making two separate issues appear as one
the first issue Is it permissible to commit injustice against gay people? (I.E bully, harass, engage in violence against them, etc.)
the second issue is homosexuality condoned by Scripture
There is straightforward verses in both the Quran and the Bible that are obviously making it clear that homosexual acts are sinful. As for the first issue- yes of course it's wrong to be cruel towards gays. But- to give an example- someone from this thread cited a statistic that gays are four times more likely to commit suicide that straight people. Is that sad? Yes. Do I feel pity for those people? Yes. Is it relevant to how we should interpret what is clearly stated in scripture? No. Cruelty is wrong period but cruelty towards gays is besides the point in this issue.
Rather than try to make themselves conform to God's desires, to many people are trying to make Fod conform to their desires.
Salam NotSure
You have forgotten a few issues.
This thread was started by you because you were upset about a secular democratic country legalizing same-sex marriage. What are you upset about may I ask? The very job of a secular democratic authority is to give every citizen the same rights. The same authority that gives you the right to believe in what you want is also giving the right to homosexuals to legally get married. I ask you again, why is it so bad that a secular government gives the same right to homosexuals that it has given you?
Like I said to brother Sonny I will say to you also. It is ok not to like homosexuality, but do not bring Allah into it because you do not have clear evidence in the Quran. The furthest you can come is if you take specific verses out of context and on the same time ignore other verses you may have that men in lust are not allowed to approach other men, they should approach women instead. There is no mention of female homosexuality, no mention that same sex love is an abomination, no mention of the level of transgression and certainly no mention that Islam is for straight people only.
I think you are tainted by the story known as the bible. The bible was written by men with a political agenda 100 years ago after prophet Jesus died and it is full of pagan rituals so I do not hold that as particularly divine.
I do not understand how leaving the judgement up to Allah can be interpreted by you into "make God conform to their desires".
When in doubt, respect the person for what she does good instead of finding faults. Allah is ever kind and forgiving and we are rewarded for the good things we do in life.
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We should treat alcoholics with love and kindness. But that doesn't mean should buy them a beer. Our brothers and sisters who engage in homosexual acts deserve to be treated with love and kindness- we are all sinners. But that doesn't mean we should encourage or seek to legitimize their acts which are sinful.
Look up verses 780 and 781. What is unambiguous about those verses? And so what if France is secular. God's word on matters pertaining to morals is what counts. The verses I have cited speak clearly on this issue. Are we to take conjecture over the word if God?
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Salam NotSure
I think you are tainted by the story known as the bible. The bible was written by men with a political agenda 100 years ago after prophet Jesus died and it is full of pagan rituals so I do not hold that as particularly divine.
Salaam Emil,
This is just a side note but interestingly, some Pagans are very open minded about Islam and the Quran. Some of them view all Gods as one God so they do not outrightly reject the Quran - some even view it as sacred and that it has truth in it. They could be very close to Allah, in a way we don't understand but they are just going on their journey in their own way. Allah swt knows them and their journey best.
I feel like Pagan is used as a by word for wrong - I'm not saying you are doing that here -, but some of the modern Pagans today can hold many Quranic values, moreso than people classified of the book such as some Christians or Jews. In fact, its been (a few) Christians who want to burn the Quran, not modern Pagans!
I think the Quran mentions the People of the Book in such a way because it would be natural conclusion for them to come to the Quran, moreso than some of the other groups especially at the time when the Quran was revealed. So its not about the label someone has, that includes Quran-only, its about each individual's approach to the Divine and so on. I'm not saying anyone here disagrees but its just something I noticed in the use of the word Pagan and I wanted to mention. I hope that's ok, I do not mean to offend anyone, not that I think I said anything offensive. -
Islam prohibited homosexuality, and that is it. If you reject it, you should reconsider your muslim status. Lots of people is Mass Media driven sosiety that follow what the television said. Imagine all man are homoseksual, there woul be no birth. Human race will be vanish.
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Islam prohibited homosexuality, and that is it. If you reject it, you should reconsider your muslim status. Lots of people is Mass Media driven sosiety that follow what the television said. Imagine all man are homoseksual, there woul be no birth. Human race will be vanish.
Real man right here.
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Good for the french gay community now that they can get married. Religious prejudices should not be forced unto them. Just as I would not expect praying to God or Salah to be made mandatory for everyone, I would not expect religious convictions to be forced on to those who choose not to follow them.
And as for my opinion on the matter of homosexuality and religion, I would not seriously, under any circumstances, consider having sex or getting married to a person that is not my opposite sex. Even if God comes down and begs me for it, NO WAY. And I am not making this up, if God knows what is in my heart, then God already knows that I am serious about it. It is like the "sexual absolute" for me as I am straight. And given that, I can see that if I would have been gay, I would not under any circumstance go sleep with someone of the opposite sex. The reason is the same.
Oh, and for those of you that are trying to link science to your religious bias against homosexuals, please, consider getting educated on the science behind it. Do not dare make scientific claims unless you "know" that your claim is a scientific one.
Peace be with you
---------------------- Student of Allah
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We should treat alcoholics with love and kindness. But that doesn't mean should buy them a beer. Our brothers and sisters who engage in homosexual acts deserve to be treated with love and kindness- we are all sinners. But that doesn't mean we should encourage or seek to legitimize their acts which are sinful.
Look up verses 780 and 781. What is unambiguous about those verses? And so what if France is secular. God's word on matters pertaining to morals is what counts. The verses I have cited speak clearly on this issue. Are we to take conjecture over the word if God?
Salam NotSure
Are you comparing alcoholism with homosexuality? You are comparing a disease to a sexual preference nope Alcohol may affect you eventhough you never drink. It can kill your children when they walking down the street. If you have a problem with DUH in your country I truly understand what you mean and I will change my mind and agree with you.
What is it about all the anti-gay people here? Time and again, over and over, post after post you are told that nobody here is very fond of homosexuality BUT we will not forbid or condemn homosexuality based on verses that do not clearly say it is forbidden. Being the diplomat I am I say that the verses in question can be swung either way.
How on earth can you still think that we are trying to
seek to legitimize their acts which are sinful.
nope nope nope nopeIn your world the opposite of forbidding may mean to legalize. In my world it doesn't.
I really do not understand............
Please go back and read what my responses to brother Sonny about 780-81. I do not have the energy to explain again.....I will leave you with some verses.
Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded
And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth, "This is lawful and this is unlawful," to invent falsehood about Allah . Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.
And certainly We did destroy generations before you when they were unjust, and their messengers had come to them with clear arguments, and they would not believe; thus do We recompense the guilty people. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act.Salaam Emil,
This is just a side note but interestingly, some Pagans are very open minded about Islam and the Quran. Some of them view all Gods as one God so they do not outrightly reject the Quran - some even view it as sacred and that it has truth in it. They could be very close to Allah, in a way we don't understand but they are just going on their journey in their own way. Allah swt knows them and their journey best.
I feel like Pagan is used as a by word for wrong - I'm not saying you are doing that here -, but some of the modern Pagans today can hold many Quranic values, moreso than people classified of the book such as some Christians or Jews. In fact, its been (a few) Christians who want to burn the Quran, not modern Pagans!
I think the Quran mentions the People of the Book in such a way because it would be natural conclusion for them to come to the Quran, moreso than some of the other groups especially at the time when the Quran was revealed. So its not about the label someone has, that includes Quran-only, its about each individual's approach to the Divine and so on. I'm not saying anyone here disagrees but its just something I noticed in the use of the word Pagan and I wanted to mention. I hope that's ok, I do not mean to offend anyone, not that I think I said anything offensive.Salam
That is very interesting indeed........really interesting.
I come from a country known to "be the least religious in the world". We dance around huge fallos symbols and we still celebrate the winter solstice (although no more human sacrificies). When somebody asks me (and strangely I have been asked numerous times) what is the most muslim country I always answer "my country". They normally look at me strangely but I find it to be true. The first time I read the Quran I was not very close to Allah, wouldnt call myself and atheist but I was closer to that than being a believer.........Anyways time and again I was flabbergasted about the similiraties in the Quran and the laws of my country.
What I am trying to say is that I may have been one of those "pagans" you talk about. I came out of the closet though and proclaimed to be a muslim..... -
We should treat alcoholics with love and kindness. But that doesn't mean should buy them a beer. Our brothers and sisters who engage in homosexual acts deserve to be treated with love and kindness- we are all sinners. But that doesn't mean we should encourage or seek to legitimize their acts which are sinful.
Look up verses 780 and 781. What is unambiguous about those verses? And so what if France is secular. God's word on matters pertaining to morals is what counts. The verses I have cited speak clearly on this issue. Are we to take conjecture over the word if God?
Salam NotSure
Are you comparing alcoholism with homosexuality? You are comparing a disease to a sexual preference nope Alcohol may affect you eventhough you never drink. It can kill your children when they walking down the street. If you have a problem with DUH in your country I truly understand what you mean and I will change my mind and agree with you.
What is it about all the anti-gay people here? Time and again, over and over, post after post you are told that nobody here is very fond of homosexuality BUT we will not forbid or condemn homosexuality based on verses that do not clearly say it is forbidden. Being the diplomat I am I say that the verses in question can be swung either way.
How on earth can you still think that we are trying to
seek to legitimize their acts which are sinful.
nope nope nope nopeIn your world the opposite of forbidding may mean to legalize. In my world it doesn't.
I really do not understand............
Please go back and read what my responses to brother Sonny about 780-81. I do not have the energy to explain again.....I will leave you with some verses.
Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded
And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth, "This is lawful and this is unlawful," to invent falsehood about Allah . Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.
And certainly We did destroy generations before you when they were unjust, and their messengers had come to them with clear arguments, and they would not believe; thus do We recompense the guilty people. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act.Salaam Emil,
This is just a side note but interestingly, some Pagans are very open minded about Islam and the Quran. Some of them view all Gods as one God so they do not outrightly reject the Quran - some even view it as sacred and that it has truth in it. They could be very close to Allah, in a way we don't understand but they are just going on their journey in their own way. Allah swt knows them and their journey best.
I feel like Pagan is used as a by word for wrong - I'm not saying you are doing that here -, but some of the modern Pagans today can hold many Quranic values, moreso than people classified of the book such as some Christians or Jews. In fact, its been (a few) Christians who want to burn the Quran, not modern Pagans!
I think the Quran mentions the People of the Book in such a way because it would be natural conclusion for them to come to the Quran, moreso than some of the other groups especially at the time when the Quran was revealed. So its not about the label someone has, that includes Quran-only, its about each individual's approach to the Divine and so on. I'm not saying anyone here disagrees but its just something I noticed in the use of the word Pagan and I wanted to mention. I hope that's ok, I do not mean to offend anyone, not that I think I said anything offensive.Salam
That is very interesting indeed........really interesting.
I come from a country known to "be the least religious in the world". We dance around huge fallos symbols and we still celebrate the winter solstice (although no more human sacrificies). When somebody asks me (and strangely I have been asked numerous times) what is the most muslim country I always answer "my country". They normally look at me strangely but I find it to be true. The first time I read the Quran I was not very close to Allah, wouldnt call myself and atheist but I was closer to that than being a believer.........Anyways time and again I was flabbergasted about the similiraties in the Quran and the laws of my country.
What I am trying to say is that I may have been one of those "pagans" you talk about. I came out of the closet though and proclaimed to be a muslim..... -
Please read the Forum Rules. If you can't contribute without being disrespectful or if the topic causes emotional upheaval...consider not posting. Further infractions will be taken seriously. Thanks.
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Once again, what an easy way of dispatching very comlex and deep questions!
We give it a label, call that label right or wrong, and the affair is closed. That is what we seem to be doing nowadays with sexuality. And lump into gay or homosexuality or heterosexuality or bisexuality anything just in order not to have to go into anything deeply or have to face problems of political correction or whatever.
There is no such a thing as heterosexuality or homosexuality. What is called gay are very different people, the same as what is called heterosexual are very different people and there is no way, neither by motives or acts that one can lump together things which may be completely opposed or different.
As to the Lut ayas, Lut people is not a question of gay or not gay but of debauchery and filth not out of any disposition but out of love for debauchery and filth. But those who do not want to look into the hearts and processes of real people find it very conveniente to lump anything into a very big deep bin put a label and close the question, and there you are, very honest sincere people may be lumped into the same heap as real filth, be it with its own sex or with the opposite. Filth and debauchery does not care about the sex of people.
At the same time that we love to heap people within labels and forget we seem to be bent on carrying on with sexual stereotyping, which is another way of lumpingo people into a bin and get rid of the burden of having to know them or understand them really. And a lot of sexual confusion arises precisely from that insistence on imposing sexual stereotypes. If we could ever take stock of the suffering caused by steretyping we would be absolutely shocked.
But no, let us keep filling page after page or bandwidth with gay or homosexual, lut and all that and getting self righteous about things, but better not to get to the real and deep questions involved for individual people.
Again, vice, licenciousness, filth, do not need to pick a sex, they are comfortable with both, anything will do and, even better, everything will do. But people who are not after licenciousness and who are sincere deserve respect an deserve that we understand them, or try to, no matter whether they show this "preference" or that "preference" and that they are not made to be the slaves of a label, be it that we deem it right or wrong, people are not labels. We are in certain conditions for reason, or causes, and normally we always study from where this or that arises, but when it come sto sexuality we just want to put the label and leave it and not touch it ever again.
Salaam
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Islam prohibited homosexuality, and that is it. If you reject it, you should reconsider your muslim status. Lots of people is Mass Media driven sosiety that follow what the television said. Imagine all man are homoseksual, there woul be no birth. Human race will be vanish.
From what I can tell, the majority opinion (but not everyone, I know I know...) here is that homosexual acts are at the very least frowned upon (781 + surrounding verses) and marriage seems to only be explicitly recognized within the context of being between woman and man (7189) Many (including myself. Yes I've read Farouk A. Peru's well-written article on this. I respect the guy but I disagree with him on this topic) take it to mean that it's forbidden whilst others deem it slightly less so. Regardless, the main argument being put out is that it being forbidden isn't something that should be forced on others - and I sorta see the appeal in that argument, how far in the eyes of god is abstaining from sin when you have no say in the matter in the first place/If you're a "good muslim" this shouldn't be an issue for you anyway? Since every person will be answerable for their actions on judgement day and all that. Oppression in general is something to be avoided...on the otherhand, where is the line between oppressing someone and supporting sin? Tolerance is what I assume the end result is intended to be, but would it be better if we simply didn't comment on such a matter? The "matter" explicitly being the legalization of homosexual marriage, not homosexual behaviour itself. There's been too much of a blurring of these two statements in this thread imo.