if Riba is not usury, what Riba can be ?

noshirk

Salaam All

i have now the conviction that riba is not usury or anything related to interest rates.

i will not enter in an economic debate. I just have to notice that Riba is severly punished by god and such a penality is too much severe for simple transaction of buying/investing transaction. Actual understanding of Riba will send all of us to hell.

I have, of course, a proposal for what riba could be.
i will not give my understanding now.

I am very interested with what other members of this forum can deduce for quranic reading and root analysis.
let say that it is an experiment i want to make ???.

as usual ancients said..., leaders/scholars/hadiths said.., and so on are not receivable arguments.

Please note that "Riba is not usury" is here as hypothesis.

Thanks from now to whose who will give their proposal.

Peace

Wakas

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http//fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http//quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

noshirk

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http//fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http//quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

Salaam Wakas

to be more clear, from my understanding, i will say that quite no bank in the world is making riba.

i will not try to state why other understanding may be wrong since these understanding never prooved that there is in Quran something that point to one of these words capital, loan, interest, borrower, lender, schedulee of reimbursement and son on.

Actual understanding of Riba is all conjectures.

Riba seems to be related to something some people want to sell and God is saying that they haven't the right to sell it.
my question can be put in these other words What is the forbidden good no muslim can sell ?

Peace

noshirk

salaam

really surprising.

nobody can doubt that paying or taking interest rates witll not lead t this
4161 And for their taking Riba, while they were prohibited from doing so, and for their consuming the money of the people unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful retribution.

wikipedia
An interest rate is the rate at which interest is paid by borrowers for the use of money that they borrow from a lender.

is that worth a painfull retribution ? is only the rich lender who will go to hell or also the poor borrower ?

nobody have an idea for the good it is forbidden to trade with ?

Peace

Farabi

Riba can lead people to have debt generation to generation. Even on the Torah each 7 years there should be a debt erasing.

noshirk

Salaam

since there is no response, i can say that the experiment is, in someway, a success.

Response is Riba, from same root as Rabb (educator/teacher), is trading with religion/deen.
Interesting to note that in arabic, word sadaka means both sincere/truthfull sayings and charity.

Riba is what religious scholars (false arbabs, plural of Rabb) eat every day.

i will not discuss this point more.

Peace

Ayisha

Jumping in here, and I think I see what you're saying noshirk.

Reading the verses containing the word to me it looks like an excessive addition to a loan/payment or to put it in common terms, ripping people off. Trade is ok, people make profits from trade and that's how trade works. Charging more than is acceptable would be riba. So called Islamic banks just change the name of interest to profit share, the process is no different.

Living in Egypt and being a white foreigner I am quoted a riba amount for most things, I am expected to pay more than a local person so therefore more than is acceptable for trade.

Although I agree on your last statement, there are thousands of 'false sheikhs' peddling their opinions worldwide and making a living from it, religion is not for sale, belief is not for sale.

Fikachu

There are 2 types of riba that have been discussed by jurists

an increase in capital without any services provided and speculation (Maisir)
commodity exchanges in unequal quantities

PixelAngelBaby

Jumping in here, and I think I see what you're saying noshirk.

Reading the verses containing the word to me it looks like an excessive addition to a loan/payment or to put it in common terms, ripping people off. Trade is ok, people make profits from trade and that's how trade works. Charging more than is acceptable would be riba. So called Islamic banks just change the name of interest to profit share, the process is no different.

Living in Egypt and being a white foreigner I am quoted a riba amount for most things, I am expected to pay more than a local person so therefore more than is acceptable for trade.

Although I agree on your last statement, there are thousands of 'false sheikhs' peddling their opinions worldwide and making a living from it, religion is not for sale, belief is not for sale.

You live in Egypt? Hello from sheikh zayed! .

wildguest1956

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http//fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http//quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

Another article, according to which Riba is interest charged when the borrower is no longer solvent.
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Riba3.pdf

Jane

Riba is a Shariah/hadithic concept surely, therefore what it is, is IRRELEVANT!

hicham9

I actually think traditionalists got this one right!

Rib (QA ) means Interest, Usury from the semitic root R-B- (related to increasing).

SLM

noshirk

I actually think traditionalists got this one right!

Technically impossible. they are always in the darkness

peace.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

After I have "run havoc" with the narration (for the better) there is technically nothing that has been right. And countless hours of work just to unwind the crap invented. And glad news for 'noshirk' and other brothers and sisters I have completely rendered a Kabah off the chart. It is not in the recitation AT ALL. Peace to you 'noshirk'.

And I am sure it was just an innocent house of unity to God that fell victim to conjectural ideas of madmen to suit wicked ideas of a house of Abraham that never existed based on wishful interpretations of a book the religious establishment did not comprehend.

God bless you

hicham9

Technically impossible. they are always in the darkness

Your argument is invalid (ad hominem, guilt by association)!

I recommend using the Scripture (to construct a valid argument). The noun in question occurs 8 times only you know!

(227503)
(227520)
(227525)
(227603)
(227810)
(313006)
(416102)
(303904)

SLM

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

I posted my thought on this subject here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606569.msg350924#msg350924

and a follow-up discussion here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606569.msg351778#msg351778

Inputs and comments are much appreciated.

Regards,

Arman

huruf

I agree with Armanaziz appreciations.

On the other hand, the word riba is not from root r-b-b, like rabb, but root r-b-w, which as a noun translates as excess and seems to be used mostly for an economic context. Taken in that sense does not seem very complicated to assess. What can be excess in an economic negative sense. Obtain gains in excess of the value given in exchange would be it? I think so. Of course, within that, like with everything else excess can be small or very great, to the point of being a 100% theft. It is a very harming deed because it destroyes economy, that is, the life of many people, therefore it is fully justified that it should be condemned the way the Qur'an condems it.

Salaam

noshirk

Your argument is invalid (ad hominem, guilt by association)!

Salaam Bro
it was not an argument but a joke.
However it can be used as a trick simply because it is quite always true.

brother Huruf sustain that riba is not as same root as Rabb but from a root rbw.
There is also another root

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.

it is always the same meaning of educating, elevating,making something grow.

(303904)

For me, it is clear, that in this verse, Allah is saying that who learn about god by/for money is not taking lessons about god from god.

here also

(227603)
Here again, for me, God is saying that "religious teaching should be given for free, as sadaka
Sadaka can mean both sincere speaking and donation of something (i am no more that this last sense is quranic ?)

However, it is not said nothing about the loan with no interests.
In the "economic theory", there is sommething like loan with no interests between loan with interests and total donation.

The big problem with economic theory is that it says nothing about what is a "good" interest. We have then to admit that quran is not complete and that we have to see what "scholars" said about interests.

From the other hand, in the real economic theory, money is called numeraire and uses as a good like other.
Interests are simple the rental for enjoying money not yours.
Exactly same thing as paying rental for enjoying a land for agriculture.
If interests is forbidden, rental should also be.

i think that economic theory of riba is total nonsense. economically, linguistically, quranically and logically.

if riba is interests, then we have to admit that making business with houda from Allah is Allowed. Since verses i think have forbidden that are used to forbid something totally stupid.

Market of interests is a market like others and money is a good like others.
it is economics and not theology.

Peace

huruf

Where are the two ba in those words, however there is an alif or a w or y which as far as it appears belongs to the root. I do not know a root that has two of a letter, other than alif, waw, ya, and then looses one letter to make the words. The dictionnaries also bring r-b-w and r-b-b as two different roots.

By the same token 3-d-d would be the same as 3-y-d which is not and many others.

Salaam

noshirk

Where are the two ba in those words, however there is an alif or a w or y which as far as it appears belongs to the root. I do not know a root that has two of a letter, other than alif, waw, ya, and then looses one letter to make the words. The dictionnaries also bring r-b-w and r-b-b as two different roots.

By the same token 3-d-d would be the same as 3-y-d which is not and many others.

Salaam

Salaam Bro

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.

there is always a relation between rbb and rb, 3dd and 3d.
the root for 3dd is said to be rd here.

here again
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. . .

root of rbb seems to be rb as seems to indicate the asl.