Is Islam a degnerative disease in the world?
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Fighting over land, money happens in pretty much all families irrespective of location and community. History of mankind has been one of fighting for power, control, money, land. This is the world we all live in and those in the past lived in.
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Peace,
Calling it a degenerative disease has a lot of implications. Someone could forumulate similar arguments about any religion or lack of religion, such as atheism. That is very wrong in my opinion because in the long run you could end up dehumanising people. The Mullahs don't make sense and abuse their positions, but so do many people in any type of authority, all types not just religious. What we can identify here in human nature.
Fighting over land, money happens in pretty much all families irrespective of location and community. History of mankind has been one of fighting for power, control, money, land. This is the world we all live in and those in the past lived in.
Well put. Most 'wars' or fighting in general as well are over resources whether small scale or large scale.
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Some great posts, Thanks all.
The focus on religious dogmas, takes our mind of the main thing making our earnings grow the halal way, then we can support our families better and fulfill our obligations to others with our earnings.
- A Muslim's (not a muslim) attention is always towards his religious dogmas, not towards doing better and doing more, so he will be left behind relative to those whose attention is always to increase the earnings and do better and more. So a Muslim will be poorer then others in the same scenario.
- A Mulsim believes his "rizk" has been written even before his birth,(and this is pumped into him daily by the religious people) so irrespective of his endeavors he will only get what is in his kismat. Whilst Others who don't believe in this will intentionally work hard and try and do more and better to better themselves.
All this and other such beliefs make the Muslim in an inferior position compared to those who don't believe all this.
So what does he do next to get even finencialy other tricks of the trade come into play next cheating bribery e.t.c and you have the domeno effect relative to inheritance. The Assets don't increase , but progressively deteriarate.
Isn't this a degenerative process caused by the Islam/beliefs the people are following? Unless you believe its all written in which case they can't do anything about.
But a few of us here don't think it's all written but we can choose to do or not do - to improve our situations ......its in our hands, but we tie our own hands and blame God almighty - i think. People who support this trend will no doubt ................
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Peace,
Actually come to think of it, it could be argued that Sunnism, and other traditions especially those relying on religious authorities, could not have the level of influence they have within Islam without the consent of most of the adherents. This does not mean we should take what can easily turn into an arrogant approach to the matter, but I can understand the case for looking at orthodoxy as a whole.
- A Muslim's (not a muslim) attention is always towards his religious dogmas, not towards doing better and doing more, so he will be left behind relative to those whose attention is always to increase the earnings and do better and more. So a Muslim will be poorer then others in the same scenario.
- A Mulsim believes his "rizk" has been written even before his birth,(and this is pumped into him daily by the religious people) so irrespective of his endeavors he will only get what is in his kismat. Whilst Others who don't believe in this will intentionally work hard and try and do more and better to better themselves.
All this and other such beliefs make the Muslim in an inferior position compared to those who don't believe all this.
So what does he do next to get even finencialy other tricks of the trade come into play next cheating bribery e.t.c and you have the domeno effect relative to inheritance. The Assets don't increase , but progressively deteriarate.
Isn't this a degenerative process caused by the Islam/beliefs the people are following? Unless you believe its all written in which case they can't do anything about.
But a few of us here don't think it's all written but we can choose to do or not do - to improve our situations ......its in our hands, but we tie our own hands and blame God almighty - i think. People who support this trend will no doubt ................
In terms of everything including rizq, provisions, being written before birth, this can relate to the fact that God knows everything beyond the constraints of time and space. God swt is all knowing and this relates to how He can help us with many things and provide Divine guidance. So God knows things that we don't need to deal with as well. But this does not mean that somehow things are out of our hands. Doesn't God place some thigns directly in our hands and give us choices? This point about all things being completely known can simply mean God's has an all encompassing knowledge, and we don't know how much we are still to do yet. So we should strive to improve our situation - God helps those who help themselves.
I'm not sure if you meant something else though in your example.
Islam with a capital I does not belong to them or anyone in my opinion. If you mean, they don't seek to better themselves but they seek to do wrong such as bribery or cheating, I don't know if this would fit even a Sunni perception or if this is more a cultural thing. How can cheating be better than seeking to improve your situation through good means? It seems like some people are inclined towards more immoral behaviours and perhaps use belief systems to justify them. That could be another way of looking at it?
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... I don't mean islam but the religion called Islam ....
From a Qur'anic perspective, (al-Islm‎ can be defined as
- A religious system based on the commandments and instructions of God. (319; 367)
- An act of resignation, submission and surrender to the will of the Supreme Creator. (352; 6163)
- A state of peace and harmony characterized by the lack of violence, conflict behaviors and the freedom from evil actions as well as false beliefs. (6835; 974)
Thus, there is no difference between "islam" and "Islam" (with a capital I) or even a fully capitalized "ISLAM"!
The difference, my dear brother, is between "Muhammadanism" (the religion of Hadithers) and "Islam"(the religion of Muslims).Salam )
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From a Qur'anic perspective, (al-Islm‎ can be defined as
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A religious system based on the commandments and instructions of God.
(319; 367) -
An act of resignation, submission and surrender to the will of the Supreme Creator.
(352; 6163) -
A state of peace and harmony characterized by the lack of violence, conflict behaviors and the freedom from evil actions as well as false beliefs.
(6835; 974)
Thus, there is no difference between "islam" and "Islam" (with a capital I) or even a fully capitalized "ISLAM"!
The difference, my dear brother, is between "Muhammadanism" (the religion of Hadithers) and "Islam"(the religion of Muslims).Salam )
Salaam hicham9,
Good points, Islam can be seen as a system as well as a condition or a state of being. Those who insist upon Hadith are much closer to following any so called traditions of Prophet Muhammad recorded rather than the guidance that Allah swt provides along with the best examples and lessons from the Messengers along with examples where they were corrected. So the Hadith way is much more of an 'ism' and Islam was not supposed to be an 'ism'.
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I suppose that the initial poster wanted to shock us with the title. In fact it is shocking.
Anythinth in human hands is susceptible to become a denerative disease and not just Islam or even islam. Everything tht comes into human hands is susceptible to be turned into guaranteed shit, or on the other hand into an inspiration to surpass ourselves in effort. Nothing particular about Islam, nor do I think that Islam is or has been in any way worse than other degenerations. There we have the Romans, continued (maybe more mildly by the Catholic Church), who are still praised as civilisers and were absolutely abhorrent as exploiters, enslavers, destroyers, cheaters, and what not but they are still regarded as civilisers. Islam has been a caress compared to that and is still a caress compared to what the Imperials of today have plotted, carried out and provoked openly and more importantly, covertly on other peoples.
That said, yes, there is a lot to be done to cleam Islam or islam of all the degenerative accretions that have so much soiled and perverted it. And it is also logial that it should be our own ills, the ones that hurt us most than the ills that others may have proved. By us I mean those who have or know to whatever degree the Qur'anic revelation.
We have that responsibility of crrying it out faithfully, others do no have it or do not r3ecognize they have it. We do. And should also know that the imperials of today love that MMuslims or muslims be as narrow minded, as hateful, and backwards and as negative as possible, because that gives the imperials the enemy they like and need. They would have to have in front of them an Islam or islam that is free, thoughtful, forward minded, optimist and without inferiority complex, because that would be a huge obstacle to the imperial designs. The narrow dogmatic islam is a gift to them, and that is why they promote it openly, but mostly covertly, because that Islam or islam gives them the alibi to go agaisnt anything muslim, while keeping a facade of ccepting a modern open to sionism and other "modernities" islam or islam.
It si still the same imperial tactics used by the romans, nothing new.
Salaam
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The Mullahs don't make sense and abuse their positions, but so do many people in any type of authority, all types not just religious. What we can identify here in human nature.
Forced marriage, beating wife, stoning to death and another silly actions usually happened in village, traditional places, or madrasah run by uneducated mullahs, that means the mullah which never touch a seat in university and implemating Quran-hadith too literally.
The difference, my dear brother, is between "Muhammadanism" (the religion of Hadithers) and "Islam"(the religion of Muslims).
Good point hicham9.
Two years ago I have a discussion about term "Muhamadanism" with an Islamic scholar.He give me detailed way for why our deen is not named from our prophet's name or some popular places, like Christian (named from Jesus), Nasrani (named from Jesus's birth place).
Because why, in religion there is no name called Nasrani, Jews, Buddism, Hinduism etc.The name is just a symbol and we only ordered by God to submitt/Islam to him, and Allah only give us the deen who passed from Abraham to us, that deen is "Islamideena".319 The system/deen with God is submission/Islam
Usually some Non-Muslims scholar who always misslead Islam as Muhammadanism, because they think Muhammad who create the system, like term Christianism which to be considered created by Jesus according most Christian.
It si still the same imperial tactics used by the romans, nothing new.
I have little knowledge of Romans but Christmas 25 December is one of the Church and Imperial Constantine at that time.
This is their strategy so the Roman people will accept Christiany, before accept Christian mostly Roman people are pagans who worship God of sun, and their celebration day is on 25 Desember.Then Church with Roman goverment under Constantine, to made their people accept Christian implicitly by claiming that 25 December as Jesus's birth.
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the 25th December is the leas tof the worries in front of the shaytanic imperial mind. Empire is above God. It is as simple as that. The gods serve the Empire, protect it. And if they ever seak of God, it is not God it is a fiction they use to control. That is the imeprial olicharchy and the imperial mind. And that does not change from one ago to another. Everything is allowed to them, they have no scrules nor bars. Tehy won't "postrate" to humanness nor to God. They will do whatever they will, mostly as we must surely know, divide and conquer.
The narrow minded, "traditional" or whatever idiots as the best allies of the imperial mind and action. They do the dirty open job for them. They give their "proof" of the evilness of Islam or islam, that is, when those narrow minded are not themselves imperials who pose as something else, for exactly the same purpose as the useful idiots.
Salaam
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Alsalaamu alaykoum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh,
I think supportpeacenotwar said it pretty well, but I could not resist posting because the relentless assault upon traditional Islam here gets out of control, over the top, on such a very regular basis. Traditional Islam is a "degenerative disease" now? This is so... dramatic. First of all, why is the poster asking this question about other religions too? Is traditional Islam the only religion to have suffered reactionary influences, or are other religions degenerative diseases too? (this is a rhetorical question) Accusing millions of people of actually... being a disease simply by virtue of maintaining their familial traditions or by embracing a religion that speaks to them is... well, it is bullshit, forgive me.
I understand that many members of this site have been mistreated by intolerant traditional Muslims. I have had similar experiences myself, believe me. The question is whether or not there is anything to be gained from engaging in the same type of condemnatory nonsense and stupidity. I will give a hint There is not much to be gained. Furthermore, we should all acknowledge the many, many tolerant and kind traditional Muslims who are not "out to get us". Just because you do not hear from Sunnis and Shias who do not hate you does not mean that they do not exist. You hear from the doctrinaire fascists among them because they are the ones who are upset enough to look for arguments with their perceived opponents, wherever they may encounter them. (on the internet, in the Masjid, etc.)
I know a group of people in my city who call themselves "satanists". Of course, however distasteful I might find their glorification of shaitan, I do not consider them to be " a disease", since they are human beings. What I do think about them is that they come across like a bunch of spoiled kids who are out to shock their Christian peers and contemporaries by constantly expounding upon the moral bankruptcy of the dominant religious paradigm. Sometimes the members of this site remind me of that dynamic when they make these outrageous comments about approximately one billion people who they do not know personally, simply because they do not agree about ahadith. (!) It is disappointing and kind of disturbing to note this childish parallel between a bunch of morally misguided nihilists and those whom I have considered (on occasion) to represent the most hopeful development in the field of progressive Islam. Word. If we really do want to rise above the negativity that has been introduced into most forms of traditional Islam, it would be wise to avoid the very same exclusionary identity engagement that we wish to transcend. The high road is a lonely place, but we should aspire to find our way along it when whenever we can, no?Personally, I think that consumer based capitalism makes a much better model for a degenerative disease on the earth in contemporary times. It is also disappointing to see that so few of the ones who are willing to decry the excesses of traditional Islam are willing to address the actual forces at work which threaten our planet, our very existence, and contravene our supposed religious values on every level imaginable.
PEACE to all, insh'Allah, Amin.
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What is shocking is the condition of billions of Muslims in the world. It is what it is. Downplaying and looking at other communities - what purpose would that serve?
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I have a related question that I'd be interested in getting some answers on if non-Muslims, for example people like the EDL or far right groups or even any other type of non-Muslim with no political ties, started saying that Islam, including our approach to Islam, is a degenerative disease - how would we take this? We may say they do not understand our approach to Islam, but to them, we should reject the Quran because by their standards it is still backwards according to their own understanding.
How would we view what they say - would we say its rooted in bigotry? For those who don't know, in the UK there are some serious issues with Islamophobia, with despicable attacks or abuse every day on mosques and ordinary Muslims since the start of the appalling death of the soldier in Woolwich by some so called Muslim.
The EDL are often at the forefront of this 'stop the mosques' type thing. -
I live in such a community and I can understand the phobia. Here in the states, two muslim brothers set off bombs at the Boston marathon.
I recently asked a Christian who has never read the Koran, the following
do you believe in one God who created the universe? The God who created Adam is the same God who created Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Muhammed and you and me and every living creature? So if there is only one God then the God who wrote the Torah, isn't it the same God who also wrote the Bible and the Koran? So would God say one thing in one scripture and different in another scripture? In the Bible, God says to respect others but in the Koran God says not to? Would that even make any sense? I have read the Bible and the Koran but not the Torah but I know that what is in the original Torah is not much different as in the Koran as it is from the same God.....
So my response is I reject ignorance, bigotry, hatred, violence - all of which God tells me to do in the Message relayed by Muhammed which is the same message relayed by Jesus and Moses, and Abraham.
One God, different messengers with same message to mankind. Those who kill, oppress, discriminate, preach racisms, bigotry, whose actions lead to discord, division, distrust, suffering or pain are misguided people.I oppose people's actions and not God and his message to mankind.
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Peace Justamuslim,
Thanks for your response. One of my questions is If non-Muslims said that all Islam as they know it, including Quran only, is a degenerative disease, would we ever consider there to be some bigotry or hatred involved there?
If those on the far right said Islam is a degenerative disease, I think many would view it as stemming from their hatred of Muslims in general. Even if they said they think that based upon their interpretation of traditional Islam and our approach just based on the Quran. I know that it would be an untenable position, but I am just wondering the perceptions we would have of others that used the exact same language.
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Thanks for your response. One of my questions is If non-Muslims said that all Islam as they know it, including Quran only, is a degenerative disease, would we ever consider there to be some bigotry or hatred involved there?
Well it depends. What is it that they hate and the cause of their hatred or bigotry? What are they basing their opinions and feelings?
I have asked non-Muslims who hate Muslims if they have read the Koran to know what the Koran says. As I point out to Christian islamaphobes
It was Christians who raped, killed, and enslaved the Africans mainly for economic reasons. Christians almost destroyed the entire population of native american indians for power and conquest. Christians in an obvious racist move placed the Japanese Americans in concentration camps and stole their land and businesses during World War II. Christians decimated the population of Hawaii to the point that less than 10% of them are full-blooded. And these were good "God-fearing Christians".....
based on what Christians did, would it be right of me to say that Jesus and the bible are degenerative diseases?
So what is it that people really hate? Do they hate God and his scriptures or do they hate people's actions? If they called Islam/Quran a degenerative disease based on people's behavior and actions, I would not consider that bigotry or hatred though. However, do they have an underlying bigotry and hatred towards muslims to start with and the actions/behaviors of muslim has only provided them the ammunition to hate? Often I follow my questions with is that what Jesus/ God taught to hate, to be a bigot?
If those on the far right said Islam is a degenerative disease, I think many would view it as stemming from their hatred of Muslims in general. Even if they said they think that based upon their interpretation of traditional Islam and our approach just based on the Quran. I know that it would be an untenable position, but I am just wondering the perceptions we would have of others that used the exact same language.
Perception would be different. I think that what the person stands for and what point is being made in the statements, which will affect perceptions.
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Alsalaamu alaykoum
@justamualim... I do not get what you are saying. First of all, the "conditions of billions of Muslims" has a lot to do with many factors combined. Are you saying that traditional Islam is the sole reason that the "Islamic world" is underdeveloped? That is exactly what the neo-liberal, post colonialists have been saying for over a century. Clearly their brainwashing has worked. To say "it is what it is" is not saying anything, it is just like saying "I do not know what to say now", it is not an argument. Nothing in life is that simple brother.
Second of all, if I am downplaying anything by looking at other communities, it is simply the idea that traditional Islam is "more evil" than all other traditional religious belief systems. Anyone objective should be able to concede that it is not "more evil". The purpose served by looking at other communities is to effectively place your own community within the greater human context. Then you can see that all communities have problems, and no community is a "degenerative disease"You have said over and again that you are against bigotry and ignorance, but it rather sounds as if you have simply inverted them against your own traditional background exclusively. I will not go into the fact that this is just another universal phenomenon, it happens in every community. What I will say is that the danger in doing this is that you end up idealizing other traditional backgrounds. Like my own, for instance, I will assume that you like living in the US? Ok, well, I do too, but there certainly are times when I am accused of being too "anti-american". In such instances I am given pause to reflect upon what it really is that I am for, and what I am against. Sometimes I am too quick to critique my own cultural background. Do you see what I am getting at? Your initial post sounds like a combination of gripes about your family and your local community "back home", and extrapolating from these bitter experiences that traditional Islam is the only cause for limited resources and economic underdevelopment. It just isn't true, regardless of what you may or may not have seen, and regardless of whether or not you and I follow ahadith.
I do not really post at this website, but these kinds of threads get old. It is provocative, and you know that it is. That is why you posted it, to invite others to join into a traditional-Islam-bashing orgy, and to get annoyed people like me to argue against. And you ask me "what purpose" my comments serve? It is a shame to have to come here and argue against someone who claims to follow the Quran, but uses dehumanizing rhetoric about "degenerative diseases" akin to that of Bill O'Reilly.
PEACE
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Salam again, sorry justamuslim, you posted whilst I was posting, lol, I just saw your last.
Well, now you are just playing games. Suddenly the crimes of "Christianity" are brought into full view. No, it would not be right to say that Christianity is a degenerative disease, because it is a bad metaphor no matter how you try to wax it. Why do you not make a post about other such "degenerative diseases", if you are so even handed?
If you are not saying exactly the same thing as the "bad Islamophobes" (as opposed to your "good Islamophoibia", based upon different "intention", then you should not... say exactly the same thing. You should say something sensible, and criticize your former community in a rational way, instead of using the dehumanizing (and ignorant sounding too, by the way) device of comparing someone's beliefs to a "disease". It comes across as kind of fascist, and not everyone here will be intelligent enough to realize that your mean-spirited remarks are different and more even handed than other, more run-of-the-mill mean spirited remarks. Sorry, but when I see someone calling traditional Muslims a "disease" well, I gotta say, it is what it is. It is not constructive, it is something else.
PEACE
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Well it depends. What is it that they hate and the cause of their hatred or bigotry? What are they basing their opinions and feelings?
Peace Justamuslim,
In this scenario, I'm thinking of people who interpret the Quran as more sexist, that it allows for aggressive wars, that it doesn't allow for many religions etc. This is undoubtedly wrong. But I am saying from their interpretation - there are people who hold such interpretations - they might call Islam a degenerative disease as well. If they are basing their opinions on purely their interpretation of the Quran - then in my opinion, that is totally wrong. No-one needs to use this kind of language and the Quran states that we - as believers, not God, (because God may use stern language as a warning, because He is God, if He doesn't give that authoritative clear warning which can help many, no-one else can) should strive to deal kindly with people. If these traditional Muslims simply disagree with us but, for example, do not force us from our homes and do not persecute us, then what basis do we have to use such strong language even about their belief system? I think such language would create more division. They are less likely to listen to what we have to say, and more reason to justify any bad perceptions of us or develop bad perceptions of us.
Another way we could also look at is If we come across someone who outrightly rejects the Quran, should we say, well its likely you will burn in hell? I have no idea where this person will end up on their journey in this life, let alone in the Hereafter, and I would think its a very, very wrong thing to do. I am pushing people away, the warning is made by God and is for them to take on board if they wish, not for me to chastise other people with.
I feel like when we do things like this we are encouraging our own sectarian approach, even if you do not label yourself as a sect.
Perception would be different. I think that what the person stands for and what point is being made in the statements, which will affect perceptions.
Yes, so I would say if they are basing their opinion on their interpretation of the Quranic text.
I agree with some of what Adel has to say. There is nothing constructive, nothing related to building bridges rather than division about this language and whole approach.
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Salam again, sorry justamuslim, you posted whilst I was posting, lol, I just saw your last.
Well, now you are just playing games. Suddenly the crimes of "Christianity" are brought into full view. No, it would not be right to say that Christianity is a degenerative disease, because it is a bad metaphor no matter how you try to wax it. Why do you not make a post about other such "degenerative diseases", if you are so even handed?
If you are not saying exactly the same thing as the "bad Islamophobes" (as opposed to your "good Islamophoibia", based upon different "intention", then you should not... say exactly the same thing. You should say something sensible, and criticize your former community in a rational way, instead of using the dehumanizing (and ignorant sounding too, by the way) device of comparing someone's beliefs to a "disease". It comes across as kind of fascist, and not everyone here will be intelligent enough to realize that your mean-spirited remarks are different and more even handed than other, more run-of-the-mill mean spirited remarks. Sorry, but when I see someone calling traditional Muslims a "disease" well, I gotta say, it is what it is. It is not constructive, it is something else.
PEACE
You can comment on what I say, agreeing, disagreeing, refuting, objecting, etc but to allege that I am playing games or speaking of me like you know me and my intentions is wrong.
You allege a lot of things. Now, can you refer to my post where i compared someones belief to a disease? adel, have you read my posts and what I have said? Did you read my first initial post and the subsequent ones?
Your initial post sounds like a combination of gripes about your family and your local community "back home", and extrapolating from these bitter experiences that traditional Islam is the only cause for limited resources and economic underdevelopment.
PEACE
Adel, can you refer me to my post griping about my family and local community back home and how these experiences have embittered me? confused
And how have I been brainwashed? Let me say that I don't have a defensive tone when behaviors and actions of Muslims are criticized. I try to understand origins of phobia. I point out misplaced phobia towards islam when it is not God and his scriptures that people should fear or hate but rather the actions and behaviors of people that which also God hates. Anyone who interprets Gods scriptures to kill, to harass, to oppress, to hurt, etc justifying their behavior are misguided - may they be Muslims, Christians, Jews or any other group. Period.
I stand by what i said that instead of being the best of communities, Muslims are the worst when it comes to justice, freedom, economics. Let's compare Saudi, a country based on sharia law and United States for instance. Ok Adel as you live in the states, let's compare the Muslim community to the other communities in the country that we live in.
Besides the native Americans, everyone else came here as immigrants. Look at how other communities have settled and the Muslim community.
the imam at the mosque said to the parents that unless certain traditional thinking change, they can expect their children to marry someone named Jane or John. he was replaced by a more conservative imam from Saudi. When i was in college, one of my classmates was very much interested in Islam and she came to the mosque on eid. She leaned over and asked me, if men are in separate building and the women are in separate building, how do you meet someone? How many mosque in this country address this issue? A lot of the members of the mosque that my dad goes to are engineers, doctors, lawyers, professionals who will mingle freely with opposite sexes at non-muslim events but suggest having an atmosphere where families can sit together at the center, and see what the reaction will be.
In college, men and women will sit next to each other but the same persons not at muslim association meeting or event. One of the brothers (son of imam) had no problems walking with a blonde in short shorts on campus but had major issues with the muslim student association for electing a nonhijab wearing female as president. Why is that? Well I can go on and on.
Adel, let's talk about the muslim community. Ok if you like let's look at the muslim community within the greater human context. And let's not get all caught up with the usage of "disease" in addressing the conditions of the muslim people around the world including United States. Where do you want to start? And can you objectively look at the root cause of the problems and accept the truths?