Sex must be the abstention during Ramadan
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Peace brother,
As I mentioned, I'm still considering different conclusions. I think eat and drink 2187 could be metaphorically talking about enjoying/consuming - which I believe dawngorgeous included in the first post. The point would be if eat can be used metaphorically to refer to property in those following verses ( or when it refers to those who fill their stomach with hellfire because of some of the evil things they do) then its possible it refers to eat metaphorically in the fasting verses. If you disagree, that's not an issue you are free to follow what you think is the best interpretation and I will consider what I think is the best interpretation. God swt did not give us the Quran so we could start to argue, compete and hurt each other over the meanings of the verses.
In terms of Ramadan itself, I am looking into whether it means we fast in Ramadan for a certain amount of time - a certain amount of days or for the whole month.
I believe I could abstain from communication for a certain amount of days, perhaps not a month - its possible to take oaths of silence so I'd consider it in the same way.
The issue about it being impractical, well.... I noticed dawngorgeous made a point about how when people eat a full meal at night in the summer at the end of the fast and then eat a full meal at dawn just hours later. This can also be considered an impracticality. So you see, I'm trying to look at this in different ways.
Yes, I agree with you that Zachariah is not fasting as such, but Maryam is... so if you have an answer to the question Does anyone know if the Quran itself refers to any example of a Messenger or any other group of believers where they abstain from food and drink? If it does, it would be nice to compare verses...
I'd greatly appreciate a response to that, whether yourself or anyone else. It'd really help.
The reason I ask this is because like mmkhan mentioned, the verses about fasting refers to those before you... so we can refer to the example of Maryam, or other believers.
I hope that we can agree to disagree should we need to, otherwise we are no different from those particular Sunnis who can't accept that we don't want to follow hadith like they do. I also hope we can continue discussing this in a calm way as we are, because in all honesty, I have found this forum to be like a competition with each other at times. To make the best point in relation to someone else, to win a debate or something, and its saddening really and I find this to be prejudiced behaviour. It doesn't reflect to me the behaviour of believers. I try to be positive on here towards other people and I sometimes receive it back and sometimes I don't. And in all honesty, the type of behaviour I'm talking about renders discussion useless really. All of that is not directed at you, so please don't take it personally, it's just we did get into that difficult discussion before and I've noticed in general this behaviour on this site. Although I'd like to say, I greatly appreciate the way we are discussing right now.
This is a long post, but I wanted to get those points down because I think they're all relevant.
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If you disagree, that's not an issue you are free to follow what you think is the best interpretation and I will consider what I think is the best interpretation. God swt did not give us the Quran so we could start to argue, compete and hurt each other over the meanings of the verses.
Yes of course. Like you said in another thread to me "you to yours, me to mine"
In terms of Ramadan itself, I am looking into whether it means we fast in Ramadan for a certain amount of time - a certain amount of days or for the whole month.
The issue about it being impractical, well.... I noticed dawngorgeous made a point about how when people eat a full meal at night in the summer at the end of the fast and then eat a full meal at dawn just hours later. This can also be considered an impracticality. So you see, I'm trying to look at this in different ways.
Me also still confused because of this, but there is some good reference from past threads in this board, just read them.
Yes, I agree with you that Zachariah is not fasting as such, but Maryam is... so if you have an answer to the question Does anyone know if the Quran itself refers to any example of a Messenger or any other group of believers where they abstain from food and drink? If it does, it would be nice to compare verses...
For Maryam the answer is topmost post in previous page.
For bold questions, not all kind of things in the Quran have Prophetic examples. There are like inheritance, fasting, zakat, even the salat.I hope that we can agree to disagree should we need to, otherwise we are no different from those particular Sunnis who can't accept that we don't want to follow hadith like they do. I also hope we can continue discussing this in a calm way as we are, because in all honesty, I have found this forum to be like a competition with each other at times. To make the best point in relation to someone else, to win a debate or something, and its saddening really and I find this to be prejudiced behaviour. It doesn't reflect to me the behaviour of believers. I try to be positive on here towards other people and I sometimes receive it back and sometimes I don't. And in all honesty, the type of behaviour I'm talking about renders discussion useless really. All of that is not directed at you, so please don't take it personally, it's just we did get into that difficult discussion before and I've noticed in general this behaviour on this site. Although I'd like to say, I greatly appreciate the way we are discussing right now.
Myself also didn't like debate, but I more like the term discussion, syuro' or musyawarroh.(see 423
Debate often became negative like raising emotion, create useless hostility and often give baseless and deceitful statements to strike the opponent.The disadvantage of emotion from medical prespective can be read in Mr Fazlur articles in this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605160.0
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Me also still confused because of this, but there is some good reference from past threads in this board, just read them.
Will do, I'm open to considering both sides of the coin and in conclusion to refer back the Quran to find the interpretation that fits best.
For Maryam the answer is topmost post in previous page.
Thanks, I will need to cross reference the fasting verses further with those verses, although right now I think I will agree to disagree.
For bold questions, not all kind of things in the Quran have Prophetic examples. There are like inheritance, fasting, zakat, even the salat.
That's true, but if the verse mentions those before us, then it does suggest we may want to look at the examples before us. If fasting is described in a certain way already in the Quran, then for me that's a point I'm interested in.
Myself also didn't like debate, but I more like the term discussion, syuro' or musyawarroh.(see 423
Debate often became negative like raising emotion, create useless hostility and often give baseless and deceitful statements to strike the opponent.The disadvantage of emotion from medical prespective can be read in Mr Fazlur articles in this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605160.0
Very true, well said. Thank you for the link.
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Peace,
Controlling and sometimes suppressing emotions can be important, but I do not agree with all brother Fazlur Rahman writes in his thread. He seems to believe we should have a life like in the movie "Equilibrium". If you have not watched it, that movie is about making emotions taboo, or rather illegal.
God bless you
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith.
What is the point you disagree from drfazl's articles, Man of Faith?
But atleast Mr Fazlur is a medical Phd who already wrote some thesis and he already known in his state, while Equilibrium's producers who wrote scripts based on autodidact knowledges like mostly movie producers.
I'm also a movie fans, but I'm not watch that movie yet, maybe I will get it from my client movie rentals soon.
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Peace Earthdom,
Well, I agree with all of Mr. Rahman's ideas to quite some extent, but I am not believing all about the emotions and the movie "Equilibrium" would tell you why. I am sure the writers of the manuscript to it were not Ph. D's, but to get the message of that movie across needs no expertise. You can see the empirical result yourself by watching it and thinking.
However, I am sure even brother Rahman is having his limitations on how far one should go with the removal of emotions. When love is no longer allowed then you have gone too far in my opinion, but I doubt this is brother Rahman's intention however I have not yet fully understood his threshold.
That emotions and the well-being of your mind is in affecting the health dramatically, that cannot be ignored. The whole peace of your soul is about reaching the peace of mind, not heating up and letting shaytaan get the better of you.
I am planning a similar thread, but focusing on the peacemaking nature. I will try to preach God's religion in there to a full extent, mainly focused on the true important part of it, the struggle to get a peace of mind and perhaps around the alleged saying of Jesus "Treat your neighbor as yourself". I cannot verify Jesus ever said these words, but they are truly wise and in accordance to the nature of islam.
God bless you
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Peace All,
Just recently I read a commentary by Aidid Safar (Mental Bondage in the Name of God) on verse 2187. He reckons that the fast is at night and that there is a mistranslation of the text. I have no Arabic so cannot comment. Is this possible? It would mean then that sex is allowed during the Fast if it is at night. It would make more sense to fast at night and the permission to have sex at night would make sense?
Just some thoughts.
Dawn.
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downgeorgeus, can you gave me the link of that website about Aidid's explanation of 2187?
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Peace Earthdom,
Here is the link
http//www.aididsafar.com/fast.html
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Peace All.
If the translation below is correct, then surely the speaking fast is correct as per Maryam in Chapter 19.The Ramadan Rituals
RamadanFasting In The Quran?
(August 25, 2007)Year in and out, the followers of the Arab religion perform the rituals of going hungry and thirsty in the ninth month of the fallacious Hijrah calender - Ramadan.
This month-long ritual of abstaining from food and water from dawn to dusk in the so called month of 'ramadan' is said to have been ordained by the God in His revelations - The Quran.
The ramadan ritual is based upon the Arabic word "syiyam", which has been translated and defined as fasting (as in not eating and drinking). Upon careful and detailed study of the relevant verses, it revealed that a mistranslation has taken place in the Qurannic verses of Chapter 2 (al-Baqarah) verses 183 - 187.
An ad-verbatim re-translation of the said verses was undertaken to uncover those word/s, which were obliterated, or smeared by translators and conspirators alike
(note the Arabic word 'syiyam' is purposely left untranslated)2183 O you faithfuls, "asshiyaamu" is programmed for you, as it was programmed for those before you, so that you are observant.
2184 A few specific days, therefore those who fall ill, or on assignments, so schedule it on other days. And for those who find difficulties in doing it, substitute the feeding of a poor person. Hence, whoever works goodness, so it would do him good, and that you "tasyuumu" is better if you know
manifest heat which was sent within it, the Quran a guidance for the people, and explanations from the guidance, and the criterion. Therefore, whoever amongst you experiences the manifestation shall "yasyumhu". And those who are ill, or on assignments may therefore, account an equal number of other days. God wishes convenience for you, and He does not impose hardship upon you; and so that you could fulfill the schedule, and you shall glorify God for guiding you, so that you be appreciative.
2186 And when My servants ask you about Me, I am always near, I respond to the call of any caller who calls on Me. Therefore, they shall respond to Me, and be faithful to Me, that they may be guided.
2187 You are permitted during the nights of "asshiyaami" to mix with your women. They are your confidantes, and you are their confidants. God knew that you have betrayed yourselves, and therefore He redeemed you and pardoned you. Henceforth, mix with them, and seek you of what God has programmed for you, and savour* it until its clear for you as that of a white thread distinguishable from a black thread is apparent. Then fulfill "asshiyaama" to the night. And you shall not mix with them whilst retreating in the institutions. These are the bounds of God; therefore you shall not be near them. God thus clarifies His revelations for the people, that they become observant.A reading of the above re-translated verses placed "syiyam" in its proper context, and paints a somewhat different picture than what is currently portrayed in the Arab religion. I will not try to expound, or define the Arabic "syiyam", but rather I would leave it to you (for the purpose of this exercise) to determine it for yourself as to what it is.
However, some important questions arise from the above verses
Where is the command line for the prohibition on eating and drinking?
A prohibition is usually imposed on a serious matter, especially when the nature of an action/inaction poses grave consequences to the doer or persons around. The prohibition will usually (in any language) be proclaimed in very clear plain words, not metaphorically, and never in an ambigous manner so as to create confusion on the matter. The commands would usually begin with "You shall not", "You are prohibited from...", "You shall stop...", or "You shall refrain from...", and in this case we were unable to detect any such prohibitive commands in the verses pertaining to eating and drinking.
It is only prudent to also note that in 2187
"...then fulfill "asyiyaama" to the night (ila llaili)..." is being mistranslated in mischief by all translators as "...untill the night..."
Hence, "syiyam" whatever one makes it out to be, is to be performed at night and NOT in the daytime! Anyway, the word day, or daytime is not even present. This mischief moulded the form of fasting that you get today in the Arab religion.
Should "syiyam" be defined as fasting (not eating/drinking), and now that we read it as to take place at night...what's the big deal? People do sleep at night (at least most people and some animals do), don't they? And it looks like its being done naturally and unwarily by everyone and some animals on Earth. Sleep and therefore, no food and water, and the fast is done!
Why would you then need a special dedicated month for that? Is this some kind of a practical joke the God is pulling on man? No. I don't think so.
Well...come Ramadan, what you will see in Saudi Arabia, and most of the other Arab countries is that, they stay the fasting nights awake, drinking and consuming food like gluttons. And guess when do they sleep? Bravo! No prize though for your correct answer - they sleep all day (err...and fasting, of course) until before dusk! Transforming themselves into nocturnals is a perfect solution don't you think, for an otherwise daunting task to stay 'alive' under the spells of hunger and thirst of daytime? Now this is a joke! The Arabs are trying to pull a fast one on their little god!
cease-fireAnd did you know that if they are at war during this time, they would negotiate with their advesaries for a pause in fighting for a month-long cease-fire, and to be continued after that? I'd be damned if I'd agree to that and missed the opportunity to wipe them little devils off!
My point and question is, isn't anyone aware of the Arabs and their idiosyncracies?
The current fasting for one month in the month of Ramadan, is also inconsistent with the Quran, as the verse stated "ayyaaman ma'duudatin..." (2184), which means 'a few specific days'.
"shahru ramadhaana..." (2185) is mistranslated as 'the month of ramadan'. The quran lexicon defined "ramadan" as 'intense heat' and is not a proper noun. Hence, the Arabic word "syahru" here, in context would, rather appropriately be 'manifest', which is also another definition of "syahru" . Re-translated to "manifest heat".
Insisting that "syahru ramadhaana" is the month of Ramadan of the Hijrah calendar, will pose a reconciliation problem with "ayyaaman ma'duudatin". Because, it will then mean "fasting a few specific days in Ramadan (and at night)"?
Further reading of other relevant verses might add more light to what actually is "syiyam", perhaps presenting something slightly different contextually. Chapter - Maryam, verses 25 - 29 -
1925 And shake towards you the palm tree, it will drop ripe fruits.
1926 So savour* it, and relax, and when you see anyone, then say, "I have pledged to the Almighty a "syauman"; therefore I shall not converse, today to anyone.'"
1927 She went with it to her people, carrying him. They said, "O, Mary, you have committed indecency".
1928 "O sister of Aaron; your father was not evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
1929 Hence, she pointed at him; they said, "How could we converse with the messiac (Mahdi) infant?"The Hungry
From the above verses it is easy to figure out what Mary was saying, and what her actions were in keeping with her pledge. Was she 'fasting' in the ordinary way?
In light of the above, perhaps its time to free ourselves from mental bondage by igniting our intellect on a re-evaluation excercise of everything that was defined for us. This is simply that little exercise to do just that. Who knows what will turn out, maybe instead of doing what is not ordained by the God, but by some idiots, we would instead be doing the opposite, a something good perhaps, and which would serve more purpose and meaning to our lives and the people around us, such as feeding the hungry, or giving aid to the less fortunate.
Define, do not be defined.
"We did not give them bodies that required no food, nor were they immortal."
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"shahru ramadhaana..." (2185) is mistranslated as 'the month of ramadan'. The quran lexicon defined "ramadan" as 'intense heat' and is not a proper noun. Hence, the Arabic word "syahru" here, in context would, rather appropriately be 'manifest', which is also another definition of "syahru" . Re-translated to "manifest heat".
It's a type of extremist Quran alone who reject hadith and another narration entirelly.
Aidid cannot differ what is dictionary what is Islamic terminology.Even we reject Hadith as our Sunnah because already distorted, then how we understand the meaning of "junub" in 56 without them?
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Peace Earthdom,
I am afraid I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you clarify a little.
Dawn.
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Peace guys,
Can I gently bring you back to the topic in hand, abstention during Ramadan sex, food or chat?
Dawn.
Hi Dawngorgeus,
here is my opinion regarding abstention during Ramadhan, you can start from herehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603590.msg294071#msg294071
And more explanation about sex in here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603590.msg294008#msg294008
Peace
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I am afraid I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you clarify a little.
OK.I will explain.
There is some Quranist who reject hadith entirelly and some Quranist not reject hadith entirelly.
I'm on the second option.I'm not reject hadith entirelly.Yes I'm Quran alone, Quran alone as source of fiqh and fatwas because aHadith was already distorted because only delivered by oral transmission for may years after the death of the Phrophet.You may also know about this too.
But by wrote something like that, I'm still use hadith as historical resources.If we reject hadith then how we know the Nabi Muhammad, his families, sahabat etc.
Historical books is different from Quran, because they may not 100% valid, so distorted Kutub a Shittah can be one of them.That is my view of hadith.
Then what happen if we translating Quran only by just using the dictionary not with some historical resources.- Junub in 56
The real meaning of junub is "far" not "sexual intercouse" or "after did sexual activity etc"
Example
436 ".....the neighbor farther (junub/ ِ away" (Shaheeh International)Then how the word "junub" was translated into "sexual intercouse" even in Free-Minds translation? because it's a Islamic terminology
quoted from some narrations (hadith) and books of tafseer.- Word "zakat".
The real meaning of "zakat" is "purify" not "charity" according to dictionary.So how we know if zakat is charity if we trashing the
historical narration?- etc
The conclusion is we may reject hadith as source of our Islam but we can still use them as historical resources but believe the history in hadith or not is not too important for our faith in Islam.
If we think again, even hadith already distorted, but it's impossible if Arabic language in hadith was distorted too.
Plus if you study hadith science (musthalah hadith), you will notice if not entire hadith is a innovation, but some of them is originally derived from Phrophet Muhammad, but just already distorted for hundred years, so it's too risk for bases of fiqh and fatwas.The proof is even Sunni and Shia's hadith is different but their salat movement and recitation is still 80% similiar.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcy79qO7aUM (Sunni Salat)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvf7Cea33tw (Shia Salat)Sorry for missleading the topic of this thread, but it's just for reminder.