Akhenaten - was he a Monotheist?
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Peace everyone,
I've read a few things about Akhenaten a Pharaoh (yes, not much, but it the way some of the things can be interpreted which caught my attention) as I knew he believed in some type of Monotheism, and he is well known for this. He had a very different approach from the Egyptians at the time. What I found interesting was this quote I read
"The living one, Re-Harakhte, who becomes active in the Akhet, in his identity of the light that is in the sun disc" (that would be based upon modern translation)
What I also found very interesting is that Akhenaten erased the word ''gods'' as well from monuments, according to what I've come across.
In terms of the quote, the fact the 'living one' is mentioned this way is very much like the conception of God that we have. And the way that the "light" is used sounds much more like a metaphor like in the Quran - at least it does on the impression I got from it. I also considered that the reference to the sun could be referring to the metaphor itself as well as the sun as a sign of the Deity rather than the sun is the Deity.
So the impressions I gathered were that Akhenaten could have been trying to place Monotheism within the motifs and ideas of the time - the Ancient Egyptians often referred to the Sun god. In this case, the cartouches at the time of Ahkenaten referred to the sun as a abstract idea, especially in terms of saying there is a single sole Deity. From what I've found of pantheons is that when they consider one aspect of nature Divine, they also refer to other aspects of nature as Divine as well.
He could have been a Monotheist, in the Quranic sense, or he may not have been. The fact he was very adamant and changed the religion itself shows breaking away from traditional Egyptian religion at least. Allah swt knows best and is the best Judge. This is the impression I got, I haven't read much about Akhenaten but I just found it really interesting and I thought I'd share it here.
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Peace,
Thanks for the information. Was enlightening. Hopefully he was a monotheist. I will keep the name on my mind.
God bless you
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I think that all religions at the base are monotheistic, and that all religions at the ends become politheisticised. That I also believe of the anciente Egyptian religion. Then, at popular level, concepts that are symbolic, allegories are personalised and become "gods". In fact what is said about akhnaton and that sentence you quote suportpeace...
"The living one, Re-Harakhte, who becomes active in the Akhet, in his identity of the light that is in the sun disc" (that would be based upon modern translation)"
is not so much particular to akhnaton, but is at the basis of the whole concept of the religion.
Take the narration of Isis and Osiris, substitute those two names and the Horus name by the abstract names of God, nd you have an allegory perfectly and emotionally quite understandable as spiritual guidance. Evil is strong, but humans must resort to patience and obedience to Divnity and undo what evil thus, so you redeem and make anew a human being alive, spiritully alive. That is not so strange. Those things or similar, parables are recounted inthe gospels and Qur'an, but are part of all religions based on revelation, only bad usage turns them into "politheism". Sometimes the politheism has become so thickened that the real base behind it may seem to be missing, but if one looks for it one finds it.
On the other hand there is vested interest in making all past assimilable to grecoroman pagganism. But that is contrived. It is not so.
Salaam
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Peace everyone,
Well... what Akhenaten believed was considered very heretical and revolutionary... that's what initially caught my attention. It reminds me so much of believers in the way he did it. His formulations of Deity were outside of what the Egyptians believed and it wasn't popular. When Tutankhamun came into power, the Egyptians abandonded Akhenaten's approach to religion. As Akhentaten's God was described in abstract ways, this is considered to be one of the reasons it was less popular because it wasn't like having a physical statues and human representations of the goddess Isis and the god Osiris, or animal representations was well of Thoth, Anubis and so on. He had to bow to political pressure and practice his religion in the capital he created called Akhetaten.
It seems as though he was describing and applying Monotheism in the way he knew best. There are further things about the way God is not represented by a sun by him, although some could say it was, it does not seem to be.... in fact the symbol used was a sun disc with its rays and this is a hierogylph for Light. Like continuing the metaphor of Light. So Akhenaten's God was very abstract and not literally represented.
The way he was called a heretic but stood firmly for a monotheistic faith (or a type of Monotheistic faith, whether or not this was Quranic Allah knows best) reminds me of a believer. That even though monotheism lacked popularity and he was revolutionisng the approach to religion, he still continued. So its just that it reminds me of connecting to this inner belief in Monotheism...
I think from what I've read, yes, Egyptian Paganism is different to Greco-Roman although borrowing of Deities occured. In this case though, what Akhenaten formulated was something outside of the mainstream.
I too hope he was a Monotheist... if he was, his story and efforts are inspirational to me.
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Peace everyone,
For anyone interested I told an atheist friend of mine about this, and he gave me some resources. He was actually disagreed with me and so do his resources but one thing was that the passage he linked to includes the way that Akhenaten glorified Aten
"How manifold are thy works!
They are hidden from man's sight,
O sole god, like whom there is no other.
Thou hast made the earth according to thy desire"I still cannot say I know what was in Akhenaten's mind and whether he believed in one God completely, but that prayer has a lot of commonality with Quranic concepts.
This may make me look like I'm a bit obsessed with this topic... I'm really not, it just came up in the last few days, and I've browsed a few different resources. In the end it doesn't matter (for our faith in Islam) whether he was monotheist or not, but its unusual what he did and worth mentioning I think, even if its not something thats researched.
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Peace sister,
I do not take it as though you were obsessed. I am also interested about finding monotheists through history.
Recently I read about Martin Luther, but I discovered he still believed in the trinity even if he was a seemingly good man. However, it may have been people attributing lies to hom afterwards although his thesis apparently includes polytheistic factors.
It seems even many seemingly righteous people could not refrain from associating partners with God unfortunately.
This is why I usually claim that very few people will truly go to Heaven in total. Not do I know who nor exact amounts, but I am sure a clear majority will not make it to Heaven. Sadly enough, this has Quranic backup too.
When God talks about the sections of Heaven I am sure He talks about the distribution of the people to each one.
Considering how many people do not believe without committing idolatry, I infer that this remained almost the same throughout history. Humans seem very prone to idolize vain things or persons.
God bless you
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Peace brother,
Thanks for providing an additional example. That's true, people can start attributing what seems like the most obvious explanation. In the case of Martin Luther King, they may expect him to be a Trinitarian. It's nice to sometimes look at these examples or ancient religions and identify the traces of Monotheism. Although the actual religion as it was finally formulated may be distant from monotheism, these traces still exist, I believe.
I also find many people seem to constantly want to find something else to worship alongside God. Why would we call creation or created things representations of God or God itself? There is no authority for that, it's being made up. The Creator is the Originator or the Original Source. That's why 'He' is the Creator and has that title. Not dependant on a human mind to represent Him etc or having any needs like a created thing. So I completely understand why you draw those conclusions about the Hereafter, even though I myself would not use that kind of terminology.
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
I was talking about the Martin Luther living several hundred years ago and not the recent one. Maybe you wanted to add more to the list though.
Martin Luther was a German cleric who rebelled against the pope and is said to have been the founder of the protestant church. Maybe you knew it and was only adding the name of Martin Luther King and in that case I am sorry.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
Lol... I misread it. My excuse I was in a rush, a bit like now. Sorry for any confusion. I've heard of Martin Luther but don't know much about him, I may look him up.
May Allah bless you too
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Peace be within you, supportpeacenowar
I believed that after the Great Flood, those who explored and settled in Egypt were the people who were saved with Noah. I am certain that in the beginning of their life after the flood, they were still monotheist and also had a Book from God as their guidance. The Book of Enoch or written on the walls of the pyramids and temples? Their Book could be distorted and corrupted as time goes by as well.
Over the ages mankind is easily strayed from the Straight Path. When he is given power, riches and knowledge, he forgot about the true Power and Authority of our Sovereign Lord, the King of all mankind. It happened to the three Books that we inherited today too. Mankind never learn.
Personally, every one who believe in God alone and all His Books should research and study the Egyptian civilizations. Why? There are many stories about Egypt in all His Books and yet the 3 establishments are quiet whenever Egypt is portrayed as myths and legends to the world today.
From my personal research and studies, I strongly believe that Prophet Abraham was from Egypt. That he was born and raised in Egypt, not where they wanted us to believe. Prophet Abraham was against his father, the chief idol makers or the chief priest. Egypt was the oldest civilizations compare to Mecca, and the statutes in Egypt can still be seen from Aswan to Alexandria. He was inspired to debate with a king or a pharaoh. The Mother of Cities could not be in Mecca but only in Egypt. Today, archaeologists find pyramids from South America to China. And where there are pyramids, civilizations existed. I have yet to find articles about the Kabah from around the world, with it, the existence of civilizations. He could be the Akhenaten, but I have to admit though that it is quite impossible to prove the connection, at this moment. -\
There is a clue from the Book of Truth (the Quran) which is from God's perspectives; the unlettered people. Reflect and ask Him for the explaination; who are they, what are they and why did He called them the unlettered people in His Book? Don't let the sayings of men distracted you from God's guidance for the Truth.
@ Man of Faith about the unlettered people, you had it at the tip of your tongue in your other thread but I think you have not made the connection, or maybe you have.
Any Egyptians here who do research and study the histories based on the three Books instead of the myths and legends written by men? Apart from what I mentioned above, another one thats intrigue me is the cave of Hira, the only cave in Mecca? But in Egypt there are many caves built by the monasteries, from Alexandria to Luxor. The Valley of the Kings is another area mentioned in the Book of Truth. Wish I am in Egypt.
This website is the place I referred to in my personal research and studies about Egypt, but the Book of Truth, as always is the final witness
http//www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut12.htm (about monotheism in Egypt)
http//www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/ebod05.htm (another interesting reading, "The Doctrine of Eternal Life", which is part of the Book of the Dead)
And supportpeacenotwar, read and reflect on the verses below. Respond to God alone, acknowledge and accept the Truth within your heart and be at peace with our Lord.
Read the verses 2122-133, God inspired the last Prophet about what the former people did to His favors and blessings, then He commanded him
2134 That was a community which has passed away, for them what they earned and for you what you will earn. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.
And again, the verses 2135-140, God's command to the Prophet to follow the religion established as Abraham did, and not to follow the religions established by the sayings of men, thus He commanded him again
2141 That was a community which has passed away, for them what they earned and for you what you will earn. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.
In light of the Truth from the above commands, do you feel in your heart, that our generations have anything to do with what the former people had done to His Messages?
I am certain that you will not find God's command to the prophets in any of His Book, to create the 3 divided religions that we inherited today. Or His command to convert from one religion to another. Most of our generations was born into a religion which has been established by men with their sayings, for centuries, and none today can say he/she was born into this world with the Truth or the statement (testimonial) of Truth as Prophet Isa did. Or had established the religion as Abraham did.
Peace and blessings be within you. pr
tauhid101 -
Peace tauhid,
Thanks for providing me with additional information to my research here. I will ponder and meditate upon the theories you brought up.
Mesr/Egypt is indeed one of the older civilizations, with among the older archeological discoveries in the world, and Egypt during its dominant eras were quite advanced for its time. They were among first to invent a written language through inscriptions using hieroglyphs, as far as I am not remembering it incorrectly. They made several important inventions as far as I can recall, unless of course they traded the technology from distant lands.
Abraham was probably not from as far north as Jerusalem at all and I guess he lived more to the south. And I think the lands were more lush green, or at least more fertile, than they are today while he lived and a few our prophets. We know that Abraham settled down in a valley, which in my opinion tends to imply that the area must have been quite huge and the landscape of today's Israel/Palestina does not fit into this description according to me. A valley is sloped down from mountains creating a relevant flat area below suitable for a larger settlement.
I think the regions on each sides of Mount Sinai can be the place where Abraham lived. It is pretty distant between the tops of this mountain chain there and flat between them. Mesr is on one side of Mount Sinai, although not making it a valley.
Moses wandered with his people via Mount Sinai, were he had his famous encounter with God and tablets were inscribed with the Law on them, popular Ten Commandments and some other essential teachings. But I am sure Moses' people went further north after leaving the mountain range.
Moses' people wandered the deserts for 40 years because God did not allow them to reach the promised lands as in his covenant. This probably means the deserts of today's Arabian region as further north its more hilly and the lands are too fertile to be considered a desert area. They surely did not walk back to Egypt. The area of today's Palestine or slightly on the side of this place was the most likely settlement of them when the sinful generation had died out and according to legend Moses never lived to see the promised lands.
Sorry I mumbled a lot of things in my post, but never really addressed the raised topic about Mesr. Well, is the area around the Nile like a valley?
God bless you
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Peace be within you, Man of Faith
Yes the Nile is also a valley.
"Most of the population and cities of Egypt lie along those parts of the Nile valley north of Aswan, and nearly all the cultural and historical sites of Ancient Egypt are found along riverbanks." (from wikipedia)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NileLets just stay in Egypt for the moment. Lets not wandering around the Middle East.
The clue from the Book of Truth (the Quran) about the unlettered people is related to Egypt only.
Peace and blessings be within you.
tauhid101 -
Peace be upon you tauhid101,
Thank you for your post and those resources. Sacred texts can be a really handy resource. I have come across the idea of a general Egyptian monolatry but not so much monotheism as a whole. Although, like you alluded to, there are traces of monotheism that the early communities appear to have left. Amun seemed to sort of evolve - and the same with Ra. Of course, polytheism then developed as it states in the Quran, and the Quran directly addresses the issues of polytheism or the corruption of earlier scriptures.
I will have to read over your post again and ponder some of the topics a little further. I like the way you've presented those verses for us to consider... very interesting.
In light of the Truth from the above commands, do you feel in your heart, that our generations have anything to do with what the former people had done to His Messages?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Do you mean that some of our generation is continuing the legacy of the former people who have corrupted Allah's swt clear Messages? Or do you mean that people now, both those who follow hadith and those who follow the Quran only, are not following through with His Message? Both of these groups claim guidance but there are some in both groups who neglect the Message from their own behaviour, corrupt attitudes, grudging behaviour, inequality and things like that?
Thanks again.
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Peace be within you, supportpeacenotwar
Peace be upon you tauhid101,
Thank you for your post and those resources. Sacred texts can be a really handy resource. I have come across the idea of a general Egyptian monolatry but not so much monotheism as a whole. Although, like you alluded to, there are traces of monotheism that the early communities appear to have left. Amun seemed to sort of evolve - and the same with Ra. Of course, polytheism then developed as it states in the Quran, and the Quran directly addresses the issues of polytheism or the corruption of earlier scriptures.
From what I understood from the Book of Truth (the Quran), it is the Way of our Lord that whenever His teachings have been distorted and corrupted, He will send prophets to remind and to warn the people He had chosen to receive His Book. And in the final Book, His stories about all the prophets, started from Egypt, the unlettered people.
Abraham was sent to the Egyptians and he had a Book, Joseph was planned since childhood to be among the Egyptians, just as Moses was planned since childhood to be among the Egyptians.
Abraham's short stories from the Book of Truth when he was tested, clearly shows the distortion made by the Egyptians when he rejected the Sun, the stars and the Moon as gods, and he destroyed the statues. And the verse 6611, about the Pharaoh's wife who supplicate to our Lord for a place in His Gardens and protection from the evil ways of the pharaoh.
Yes, there are many verses in the Book of Truth which witnessed and confirmed the existence of monotheism in Egypt. And yet, why the portrayal of myths and legends? Even Hawas feel proud about them being myths and legends. From the sacred text website, some writers complained why the Egyptians themselves did not write the ancient civilizations of their own country. What Truth about ancient Egypt they don't want the world to know? Alexander the Great went to Egypt but did not destroyed them? More to dig ;D
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Do you mean that some of our generation is continuing the legacy of the former people who have corrupted Allah's swt clear Messages? Or do you mean that people now, both those who follow hadith and those who follow the Quran only, are not following through with His Message? Both of these groups claim guidance but there are some in both groups who neglect the Message from their own behaviour, corrupt attitudes, grudging behaviour, inequality and things like that?
Thanks again.
May I ask whether you're a convert or a born Muslim? I apologize if I'm being too forward.
Yes, supportpeacenotwar, our generations are continuing following the religions established thousand of years ago. Judaism was established from the Torah and the Talmud, Christianity was established from the Gospel and the Bible, and Islam was established from the Book of Truth (the Quran) and the Hadiths.
Ponder and reflect these questions and I pray to our Lord that He will favor you with the Truth. Did God command the Prophets to create these 3 divided religions from His Books with the sayings/ doctrines of men? Was it our Lord intentions that His Books be divided into the 3 religions? Did God command the system of conversion from one religion to another, among the three religions? Did God command in the Book that we are to reform the established religions by men?
Here is a summary as to what had happened to the 12 tribes and His Books. The unlettered people of Egypt were saved from the tyrannies of the pharaoh, and God appointed Prophets for them, to teach them the Hebrew letters and the Law and the Torah. After years of living under the 12 selected elders, they wanted a king, and God appointed David and give him the Zabur/ Psalms.
They fought among themselves and anarchy breeds arrogance. They were punished twice and saved twice but did not repented. So God send down a Sign in the creation of Prophet Isa, a sign for all mankind. A man from birth, who became one with the living statement/gospel of Truth of our Lord, the Holy Spirit. Yet again, they rejected and killed him. God cursed them and prohibit them of returning to the Holy Land and scattered them as mixed groups of people, the Arabs. The word arab comes from the Hebrew word "ereb" which means "mixed/mingle/crowd of people". Arabic evolve from the Hebrew letters.
But because of His unending compassion and mercy (btw which the Muslims proclaim everyday), our Lord chose and appointed the last Prophet, from the unlettered people. To receive the final Book, the Book of Truth, to remind and warned the Children of Israel, the mixed 12 tribes, the erebs/arabs, for the last time. The last Prophet were sent to unite them, those who believe him and the Message that he brought. God commanded them to remake the Covenant with the Prophet and thus with Our Lord. The command from our Lord, the jihad, was against the Greeks and the Romans only, those who created the Trinity. To destroy the Trinity, and made corrections to the two previous Books and uphold the Truth.
They were warned that if they did not follow His commands again, and do what they did before, He promised to punish them twice as He punished them twice before. The first promise was the Yakjuj and Makjuj, the Mongols who destroyed the Islamic empire and the second promise is what's going on in the Middle-East today, with the fake 13th tribe from Europe.
After the death of the last Prophet, they argued for the leadership and fought among themselves, and created the divisions sunni and shia and the religion Islam. The two shahadah was what they spread to the nations they conquered. They did not destroy the Trinity or fought the jihad against the Greeks and the Romans as our Lord commanded.
Then, with the rise of power of the Anglo-Saxon, the 12 tribes helped them to destroy the Ottoman empire and divided the middle-east among themselves. The Anglo-Saxon established the State of Israel with the fake 13th tribe from Europe, and controlled the oil and riches of the middle-east. The leaders of the 12 tribes kowtow to the power of the Anglo-Saxon and the Eagle, and let the descendants of the 12 tribes hated their great-great-great-great grandfather's name, Israel.
Again, the verses 2135-140, God's command to the Prophet to follow the religion established as Abraham did, and not to follow the religions established by the sayings of men, thus He commanded him again
2141 That was a community which has passed away, for them what they earned and for you what you will earn. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.
Here is more verses from the Book of Truth;
929 Fight those who do not believe in Allah and not in the Last Day, and not they make unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has made unlawful, and not they acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from those who were given the Scripture/ Book, until they pay the jizyah willingly, while they are subdued.
2867 But any who had repented, believed, and worked righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve salvation.
4213 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - that which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
4221 What! have they partners, who have established for them some religion without the permission of Allah? Had it not been for the Decree of Judgment, the matter would have been decided between them. But verily the wrong-doers will have a grievous Penalty.
In the verse 929, the Prophet was to unite the mixed group of the 12 tribes, the arabs/erebs and they were to acknowledge the Religion of Truth. And in the verse 4213, it is our Lord with His permission, He established the religion for all the prophets, since Noah; and not like in the verse 4221. Our generations have been following the 3 religions established by men without the permission from our Lord.
Yes, supportpeacenotwar, in light of the Truth of these verses, yes I am certain, I will not be asked why I rejected the 3 divided religions established by men.
933 He is the One Who has sent His Messenger (the Holy Spirit) with the guidance and the religion of Truth, to manifest it over all religions. Even if the polytheists dislike it.
Sorry about the long post ;D
Peace and blessings be within you
tauhid101 -
Peace tauhid101,
I was born Muslim, but followed new age spirituality for a while and then came back to Islam recently. Having left Islam and coming back, it's really made me look at why I should follow the Quran - what makes it the book of Truth as you say. And so I think my experience with new age spirituality proved valuable. I'm not just following it because my family follow it, or because that's all I've known. So I thank God for guiding me and pray He continues to guide all of us who seek Him. When you say you pray to God that I will be favoured with the Truth what do you mean? In the end, I'm not sure any of us can be certain about the history of Akhenaten and even the Egyptians or other groups.
I agree with your general approach, I myself reject the idea that somehow we have to submit to conventional scholarship and all they do. This is something I find tiresome actually, people who live for academia and scholarship and don't consider other things as having the same importance and thinking outside the box - and realising that perhaps knowledge can be ascertained in many ways (and I would say in the most simple of ways sometimes). I've written a similar post about the problems with this approach on another thread.
They're kind of like the people who think God is masculine because it says He. They don't want to look at the message and what it actually says to counteract that perception, they want to continue with their own idea that the Quran was created in particular time - so therefore it must be purely of that time according to them. And there's a lot of people who think that way, but I guess thats the thing with convention. I wonder if their approach is much more grounded in their own nature/perceptions, just as they would say we are following what we want to apply a more modern interpretation on the Quran. We believe in God - so He is the Guide, they believe in no God ultimately, at least to guide them in their search for knowledge apparently. So looking at it from this perspective, they are driven by their own particular predisposition. Everyone is - that's what being human is. In fact, that's why sometimes people want the human touch rather than machinary for some things, its what defines us.
In response to your question No, I don't believe God commanded those religions at all - otherwise I wouldn't be following Quran only. The way you ask your questions though could you clarify - is it that you think I believe in some of these things or is that you are asking rhetorically because you want to put such questions in your approach? Oh and in terms of Judaism, Christianity and Islam with hadiths - I'm already aware of that. In fact, most of my posts here have been related to that. I thought you might be referring to another more sort of philosophical point.
Yes, Millat Ibrahim, following what was already given to Abraham, the verses you mention I'm also familiar with. I've mentioned such things on this forum myself. I would also say that God did not command conversion as such from any label - but more like whoever you are and whatever you call yourself, if you believe in the One Creator, the last day/that justice will be done and do good (seeking help from our Creator) then you believe in the principles of Islam as defined in the Quran. -
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes, it is as simple as that.
- Believe in God
- Judgment day
- Lead a righteous life
People make God and His system/religion complicated while God does not want to make it hard at all for us.
Some details are written in Quran though, but nothing particularly hard to obey and follow. Those things are recommendations however. Quran gives us lot of clear guidelines and a few fixed rules.
God bless you
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Peace be within you, supportpeacenotwar
I was born Muslim, but followed new age spirituality for a while and then came back to Islam recently. Having left Islam and coming back, it's really made me look at why I should follow the Quran - what makes it the book of Truth as you say. And so I think my experience with new age spirituality proved valuable. I'm not just following it because my family follow it, or because that's all I've known. So I thank God for guiding me and pray He continues to guide all of us who seek Him. When you say you pray to God that I will be favoured with the Truth what do you mean? In the end, I'm not sure any of us can be certain about the history of Akhenaten and even the Egyptians or other groups.
Thank you for answering. Well then, we're from the same boat, sort of. I too was born into a sunni Islam family, but I never follow any new age thing and only follow my own desires of booze, women, on/off the drugs and booze. But I thank God every day for bringing me back and guiding me to His Graces and Mercy. When I said I pray to God for you, I pray that He will favor you with all the Truth, not just about Egypt and Akhenaten. And don't give up on Egypt yet, there is more to the unlettered people than Akhenaten/Abraham.
I agree with your general approach, I myself reject the idea that somehow we have to submit to conventional scholarship and all they do. This is something I find tiresome actually, people who live for academia and scholarship and don't consider other things as having the same importance and thinking outside the box - and realising that perhaps knowledge can be ascertained in many ways (and I would say in the most simple of ways sometimes). I've written a similar post about the problems with this approach on another thread.
They're kind of like the people who think God is masculine because it says He. They don't want to look at the message and what it actually says to counteract that perception, they want to continue with their own idea that the Quran was created in particular time - so therefore it must be purely of that time according to them. And there's a lot of people who think that way, but I guess thats the thing with convention. I wonder if their approach is much more grounded in their own nature/perceptions, just as they would say we are following what we want to apply a more modern interpretation on the Quran. We believe in God - so He is the Guide, they believe in no God ultimately, at least to guide them in their search for knowledge apparently. So looking at it from this perspective, they are driven by their own particular predisposition. Everyone is - that's what being human is. In fact, that's why sometimes people want the human touch rather than machinary for some things, its what defines us.
If you check my profile, that's why there's only a few post and replies, and I'm a member here since 1995 or thereabout. ;D
In response to your question No, I don't believe God commanded those religions at all - otherwise I wouldn't be following Quran only. The way you ask your questions though could you clarify - is it that you think I believe in some of these things or is that you are asking rhetorically because you want to put such questions in your approach? Oh and in terms of Judaism, Christianity and Islam with hadiths - I'm already aware of that. In fact, most of my posts here have been related to that. I thought you might be referring to another more sort of philosophical point.
Yes, Millat Ibrahim, following what was already given to Abraham, the verses you mention I'm also familiar with. I've mentioned such things on this forum myself. I would also say that God did not command conversion as such from any label - but more like whoever you are and whatever you call yourself, if you believe in the One Creator, the last day/that justice will be done and do good (seeking help from our Creator) then you believe in the principles of Islam as defined in the Quran.Well, its a rhetoric, and I was asking it for wanting to put them in your approach. That's clear things up, I hope. But why do you still maintain the arabic word Islam and the word Quran?
When I said that we were born into each of the established religion, each of us only knows the doctrines of the religion we were born into. And those of us who were born into Islam thought the Book of Truth (the Quran) is all about Islam. And others from the two religions also thought it about the religion Islam, and converted. Until our Lord guided us.
But when you ponder on it, Islam is all based on the hadiths, the two shahadah and the five pillars and the Quran is only a reading/ a recitation in Arabic. That's why it is called the Al-Quran (the Great Reading).
But our Lord's purpose of sending down the Book was to correct all the distortions made to the previous Books only. It is the Book with all the Truth which witnessed and confirmed His teachings of the previous Books. It does not witness and confirm the existence of the Books alone, but witness and confirm the teachings/ His Messages within the previous Books, especially His Gospel. Are we on the same page here, or do you think the Quran witnessed and confirmed their existence only?
There are no spiritualities in the doctrines of Islam. The doctrines did not stressed about our creation of the Spirit from God, and there is no mention about the Holy Spirit or the spirit of Truth, the living words of our Lord. And yet, these teachings are explained in the Book of Truth (the Quran) in details, especially about the true resurrection of mankind while still living in this world. The Book of Truth is also to correct the distortion made by the doctrines of the Trinity.
And our sisters and brothers from Christianity who were taught more about spiritualities because of the Gospel, when they converted they thought the Quran is only about Islam. Do you see the dilemmas, the confusions and arguments in a forum about our Lord and His Teachings, when they are still based on the established religion Islam or the label Islam?
If you would like, we could continue the discussion through PM. I have taken your thread away from Egypt. As you can see from my replying to your post, I am the kind who thinks a lot before putting them into words. I'm also from Borneo and English is only when required.
Peace and blessings be within you.
tauhid101 -
Peace be within you, Man of Faith
Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Yes, it is as simple as that.
- Believe in God
- Judgment day
- Lead a righteous life
People make God and His system/religion complicated while God does not want to make it hard at all for us.
Some details are written in Quran though, but nothing particularly hard to obey and follow. Those things are recommendations however. Quran gives us lot of clear guidelines and a few fixed rules.
God bless you
Yes brother Man of Faith. It is that simple because our Lord too has set upon Himself the Law, forgot the chapter and no. will post it if you want. But the Law He set upon Himself is this, "Those who believe and do good in this world, and did not know about the Truth, did not commit any sin." And He never lets go any of His creation, if He lets ago astray.. He is after all the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful.
Since we are all guided to His Books for the Truth, there is always a purpose, MoF. God alone or Quran only members from around the world is only about 30,000 members, out of the 7 billions He created. "Who wants to be the helpers of Allah," as the Prophet Isa said. Also the purpose of understanding His Truth, so that He establish/write His living words of Truth into our heart, which is called the spirit of Truth/ the faith/ the iman, which will be our testimony and a witness against ourselves when we meet Him, upon death. It is the true resurrection in this life with His light of Truth.
Peace and blessings be within you.
tauhid101 -
Peace tauhid101,
I will answer your question "Well, its a rhetoric, and I was asking it for wanting to put them in your approach. That's clear things up, I hope. But why do you still maintain the arabic word Islam and the word Quran?"
I think I understand what you mean. If I do, because essentially you are saying in asking those questions that with those three systems - you wondered if I believed God sent them down separately. I don't know why you would think I believe them and put them in my approach Haven't you seen any of my other responses on here? I reject the hadith based version of Islam, I don't follow the second shahadah etc. I was never even brought up in traditional Islam. If you please also consider that I've mentioned this several times elsewhere, I don't really want to get into my life story on quite a few threads here.
I think I'll also clarify why I posted this thread its because I came across it and just thought it was noteworthy. I wanted to share it in case anyone else found it noteworthy and hadn't come across it. Going of the responses to this thread, only one person so far has found it of interest. Even if its only of interest to one person, that's still good to me. There are always parts of history we may never know - I don't believe Allah expects us constantly search for that, but if we want to enquire we can but its not incumbent on every believer to do that.
When you keep saying that the Creator will favour me with the truth - are you saying I don't already believe in the Quran? You just agreed with Man of Faith, that it's that simple. But Man of Faith was simply agreeing and confirming what I said. I really don't understand why you are saying that and why you keep implying that I don't have the truth or that I have not been guided yet to the truth.
If the truth is that everything is also in submissions/ordered by our Creator and we are simply back with that natural order - then the truth is not just words or a recitation. The truth is about living and actually practicing what you believe, as best you can and as is humanly possible, with all people, with all things, without prejudice as our Creator intends.
What do you mean why do I still maintain the words Islam and the Quran? Everyone here uses these words. The Quran is used to describe that book and recitation called the Quran. I view Islam as defined in the Quran - as I already stated in the post to you and to further explain as part of a whole order, a whole natural order from our Creator.
I am really puzzled at the way you are corresponding with me. It's like you think I am not following what you are, which you think you are following the truth, and then on the other hand you are agreeing with Man of Faith, who is actually only agreeing with me. Man of Faith and I both agree on the same thing, so if you think he has the answer - well I just said the same thing. Can you understand the way this seems very strange?
I also believe that the Quran provides test and challenges in it for the believers. When the Quran talks of hypocrities - don't be of those who think its just the people who follow the hadith. the Quran provides examples of people who say everything right - even in the time of Prophet Muhammad, which was a Quran only time - but they don't believe, they are knowingly corrupt/unfair/unjust and Allah swt does not love the corrupt.
So in my opinion, at least some of the things on this forum - or even the nature of this forum and the way people are here (and possibly elsewhere as a whole) Allah knows best - are an exact example of some of the things warned about in the Quran... maybe a little controversial there, but look for it and you'll see it. And I wouldn't want to get into any examples, it's just something to consider.
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Peace be within you, supportpeacenotwar
Peace, supportpeacenotwar, I am so sorry if my correspondence to you seems like I presume too much. As God is my only witness, I have no intentions whatsoever to presume anything. I'm so sorry. -[
I think I have a lot to learn in writing my thoughts and communications through forum. Please, accept my apologies. -[
Peace and blessings be within you
tauhid101