Question about article "What is Religion?"
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Peace all,
"shahr/month" = a full-moon cycle is not supported by the quran.
When Allah speaks about the sun, it is a full sun and not a partial sun, in the same way for the moon (alqamar) which is a full moon and not a partial moon.
The full moon/alqamar in the light of the quran through stages becomes a crescent (3639).Allah speaks only about hilal/new moon as a mechanism timing for people and for Alhajj.
Alaqamar/the full moon and Hilal/new moon are not interchangeables but supplementary.
In arabic, the verb Halla / halla(n) means appear, to show itself to the horizon, begin.
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
2189 brings an additional information to 696, Allah specifies at which phase of the moon is a timing mechanism for the people and for the
- They ask you regarding the new moons/alahillat, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people and for the alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
The word "Hallatu(n)" means first rain
and
Hallatu alqamar (the moon) means the beginning of the moonAllah knows best
Peace
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Salam Marie,
I follow all you say in your last post except that I don't understand the link to your first phrase. Ok for the explanations about qamar and hilal, but why couldn't shahr mean month - being full month ? Then, "the count of month according to Allah is twelve" would be correct - even though there can be 13 full moons in a year, there can only be 12 full month.
What did I miss ?
Elke -
Salam Elke
Salam Marie,
I follow all you say in your last post except that I don't understand the link to your first phrase. Ok for the explanations about qamar and hilal, but why couldn't shahr mean month - being full month ?
I do not find any quranic argument which supports this theory. May be we are speaking about the same thing, personally, I consider the word "shahr" as a cycle between two hilal (new moon) like this
....................Full moon...................... Full moon........................
New moon....................... New moon..................... New moon
.....................Cycle 1.............................Cycle 2.......................
One cycle = one month
Then, "the count of month according to Allah is twelve" would be correct - even though there can be 13 full moons in a year, there can only be 12 full month.
What did I miss ?
ElkeI think the existence of 13 full moons in a year is an argument which doesn't support that "shahr/month" = a full-moon cycle
Allah knows best
Marie
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Salam Marie,
you said (sorry, i didn't yet figure out the quote function)
I do not find any quranic argument which supports this theory. May be we are speaking about the same thing, personally, I consider the word "shahr" as a cycle between two hilal (new moon) like this
....................Full moon...................... Full moon........................
New moon....................... New moon..................... New moon
.....................Cycle 1.............................Cycle 2.......................
One cycle = one month
Elkes answer
Allright, then one cycle is one full month and shahr is the cycle between two "hilals" which is a full month. Which would actually mean to me that we say the same thingQuote Mary
I think the existence of 13 full moons in a year is an argument which doesn't support that "shahr/month" = a full-moon cycleElke says
These two things are not related in a way that one has to support the evidence of the other. I didn't mean the possibility of having 13 full moons (qamar) in a year to support the meaning of shahr being "full month" - but I understand shahr as being full month because that would make sense with the verse telling us that according to God, the count of shahr is twelve. But as you say, Allah knows best.Elke
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Peace brother Kyle,
Brother Ayman has found a possible solution. He states that the word "shahr" is not "month" but instead "full moon". There are EXACTLY 12 full moons a year, EVERY year. As you correctly observed, there is NEVER 12 months(30 day periods) in a year, it is always over.
Look at the section regarding "shahr/month"
Please see the thread on "shahr" under "Quranic Study". I have since come to the conclusion that "shahr" means full-moon cycle. There are 12 full-moon cycles in a solar year.
Here is Y. Ali's translation of 105 (emphasis mine)
010.005
YUSUFALI It is He Who made THE SUN to be a shining glory and THE MOON to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; THAT YE MIGHT KNOW THE NUMBER OF YEARS and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.From 105, it can be seen that the years are determined by either or both the sun and the moon. Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 1712. Here is Y. Ali's translation (emphasis mine)
017.012
YUSUFALI WE HAVE MADE THE NIGHT AND THE DAY as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and THAT YE MAY KNOW THE NUMBER AND COUNT OF THE YEARS all things have We explained in detail.Given that night and day is determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
More confirmation is in 1247-49 that talk about the "year" definitely as a solar year because of reference to agricultural cycles and planning of crops that would have to be done according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next.
I still don?t get this, in a Islamic calender there is twelve monthes and they follow the moon. But the monthes don?t come back in the same seasons next year, so then the twelve monthes don?t follow the seasons?
One can use any calendar they want.
As for the restricted "full-moon cycles", all we need as a marker is that the first one is the "full-moon of scorching heat". This would be the first full-moon after the summer solstice when the sun is at its highest point (scorching) and the days are longest. This of course would mean that the restriction timings are different for the southern hemisphere and the northern one. This is OK, The God never says that everybody in the whole world must abstain at the same time. He only said those who WITNESS "al-shahr" should abstain.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Salam Elke
Allright, then one cycle is one full month and shahr is the cycle between two "hilals" which is a full month. Which would actually mean to me that we say the same thing
I consider the new moon (hilal) as the beginning and the end of the twelve month (12 shahr) according 2189
- They ask you regarding the new moons, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for Alhajj.?
In the same chapter we read that Al hajj is in the months which have been appointed (2197), and the month of ramadhan is also an appointed month. We have to witness the restricted months in the same way according 2189
Contrary to brother Ayman who think that the full moon is the begenning of the month and according to his reasoning, the month (shahr) is the cycle between two full moons if I'm not wrong.
Some years have an extra full moon?thirteen instead of twelve, I wonder aquestion; can we consider the full moon as the beginning of the month?
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (936)
If the full moon is the beginning of the month (shahr), that causes a problem according 936.
Looking for your comment
Thanks
Marie
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Peace Marie,
I also would tend to think that hilal is the beginning of a month, but I didn't really get yet the implications of your counting from hilal to hilal and the intervall would be 12 month ? Why twelve month in 2189 ? Doesn't it just state that news moons are a timing mechanism ?
D?sol?, je ne peux pas approfondir maintenant, pas le temps de r?fl?chir, mais le ferai inchallah quand j'aurais plus de temps !
Elke
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Salam Wakas, Marie, All
that's what I meant when I said that shahr has got to mean (full) MONTH, not full MOON, because then it makes sense. Twelve full MONTH in a year (+ part of a month), doesn't matter if sometimes there are 13 full MOONS. But you are right Wakas, we have to check about the definition of a year.
Elke
