What is God's role with Born Disabled?

supportpeacenotwar

Peace savage_carrot,

My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.

I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.

The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with him.

This point I've made isn't so important to me that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I've already said that in a post prior to the one you made as well. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then - I understand when certain things are unwelcome.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Man of Faith,

I really agree with what you have to say. I would have put the points across with similar words as well. Thanks for sharing that post with us.

justamuslim

@manoffaith,

Re

I think you treat brother Fazl a bit unfairly harsh. Well, I am not sure if he has offended you at some point. We should remember that we are (hopefully) muslims and we need to discuss things in a fairly peaceful and civilized manner.

Apart from calling doctors pawns of evil I am not sure what he has done wrong? Is he spreading misinformation you say? Well, I think much of what he says is true.

Asking drfazl to back up his claims and asking him to provide evidence and support is not what I would consider being unfairly harsh. Do you consider holding a person accountable and responsible - harsh and unfair? In that case then God is most unjust and unfair!

And re

His lifestyle and if he has been fine for 15 years without healthcare and only through Faith healing I must say I am impressed. It may tell how much simple honest Faith in God can do for a human being.

I know atheists who have done fine a lot more than 15 years without seeking healthcare. So does this mean that not believing in God can do for a human being?

Also,I know many Christians who have been saved by Jesus. If we follow your reasoning to a conclusion then believing in Jesus and accepting Jesus in our lives will lead to salvation. It can do wonders. I know of many similar stories as the person who wrote of her experiences in this article
http//www.southasianconnection.com/articles/98/1/Encounter-with-Jesus-that-Changed-My-Life/Page1.html

re

And like drfazl said, drugs can cause permanent damage and should be used wisely and only when needed.

There is nothing that drfazl has said that we don't know about or that your doctor won't tell you. What he has done is take some known facts or some knowledge and then basically what he has done is mix truth with falsehood. He has taken verses from the Koran (Gods words) to give support to his views.

Drfazl here has not only called doctors evil and going to a doctor is a sin, he alleged that I am full of hate towards God alone and also hate God. You don't find anything wrong with that? And also he has claimed that doctors are responsible for chromosomal conditions like Down syndrome and all disabilities are due to doctors. In another thread, he said that ovaries are an empty sac till age of 12 and that you don't need males and other such thing. You can read for yourself. You don't find his claims and statements to be misinformation???

Manoffaith, you speak so harshly about hadiths holding the kind of views that you have when there are many things contained in the volumes of Bukhari that may very well be what Muhammed said and clearly do not contradict the Koran and are in a sense virtuous and yet you seem quite supportive of drfazl coming to his defense (so it seems) and also referring to him in your own thread which you started and which I am awaiting to read. Why don't you reference hadiths that some of which are very much true?

newmoon

Peace oneandonly,justamuslim, savage carrot, stillearning, supportpeacenotwar, Man of Faith

Given the global scenario on health care, all systems put together from your own experience

can you say in a single word say say whether it is

IMPROVING OR DETIORATING

If you agree that it is IMPROVING then finally our wretched end would be in the Lofty

INTENSIVE CARE UNIT at the behest of specialised (doctors) saviours who

would ask you to TRUST upon the ONLY SAVIOUR, in the fag end but in vain.

If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say

his views for betterment of man kind to follow.

Regards

Balachandran

savage_carrot

Peace savage_carrot,

My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.
Yes that is what he's saying amongst other things. Dr Fazl's 'one way' approach includes two things, firstly, saying the quran says so and so when it doesn't, and secondly contesting all medical knowledge as being wrong and sinful to accept. When you say what drfazl is doing is somewhat similar to atheists etc is not similar because this isn't an opinion discussion as such. It involves facts which means that he needs to tell us where the reference to what he's claiming exists in the quran ,and the second part which is to give evidence for his anti medical claims.

I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.
I don't really know what you agreed with in the post I responded to other than the last part where you said I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. And then explained the trust in God bit. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense.

The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with drfazl.
And I was saying drfazl has no method. Wasn't saying that you said he had a method, was bringing it back to him is all.

This point I've made isn't so important that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then.
If someone makes the claims drfazl makes, it is not like the subtle points you are raising. As in, i don't think this is a similar situation as I've explained. That is my opinion, you can disagree of course. Sorry if I don't like your subtle points? It's got nothing to do with like or dislike, I just don't see the relevance to the drfazl situation. If you think/feel you should clarify further, please go ahead. I'm not sure what to say to the last bit, other than I don't mind the posts/contributions?

justamuslim

If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say

his views for betterment of man kind to follow.

If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?

I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.

newmoon

If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?

I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.

Yes If GOD ALONE WILL one would be able to understand

Man_of_Faith

Peace justamuslim,

I am supporting drfazl's alleged and apparent Faith in God. I am not all out supporting his ideas about healthcare as I thought you would have understood by reading my previous post.

I have not found much to gain from reading hadith, I have looked through some of it, but I deemed it a waste of time reading after some hundred pages. Even if a tiny portion might be true, the risk of trusting the information is not worth it in my opinion. There are better "hadith" than the hadith of Muhammad. And I am not interested in how many stones Muhammad used to wipe his ass when he answered the "call of nature". About a chapter or so just about observations on how the prophet performed his toilet needs.

Why are you telling me to refer to hadith? A rhetorical question I suppose.

And yes, I mentioned drfazl in my thread. Some of his information is worth reading. The background of his ideas is not bad, even if he seems to go to one extreme with it.

I am not sure about his 15 years of Faith healing and if it is just pure luck, but I still commend him for relying so much on Faith. Like I mentioned in my previous post and if he got serious injuries you may see that I believe he needs hospital care or die in case of an accident.

Surely you must see that I am not trying to talk against drugs ultimate use, only saying that we may consider reduction of its usage. Do not tell me your blunt style has caused you to become blind of what it being written or not here.

God bless you

newmoon

Peace justamuslim,

I am supporting drfazl's alleged and apparent Faith in God. I am not all out supporting his ideas about healthcare as I thought you would have understood by reading my previous post.

I am not sure about his 15 years of Faith healing and if it is just pure luck, but I still commend him for relying so much on Faith. Like I mentioned in my previous post and if he got serious injuries you may see that I believe he needs hospital care or die in case of an accident.

Peace to Justamuslim, Oneandonly, Man of Faith and to All.

I would like to share my experience with regard to believe GOD ALONE for my health care not only for me, but for my wife, son and two daughters.

By GOD's Grace I came in contact with Dr.Fazlur Rahman 15 years ago for my long list of ailments of 30 years since childhood and got cured , since then Iam having anew lease of LIFE .

My son was born in a Hospital before believing in GOD ALONE , and thereafter my two daughters were born at home without the help of any sort of medical system, leave alone Modern Medicine. Till date for any sort of ailment we turn towards GOD as HEALER by seeking forgiveness and patience .

We all would accept that GOOD intentions and deeds would bring as GOODS. But we find difficult in accepting the TRUTH that any hardships such as ailments, accident, socio-economic problems etc., are earned through our bad intentions and deeds. By GOD's Grace accepting this TRUTH gives us patience during the testing period, and this belief in HIS Prowess is growing day in and day out for the past 10 years in my family.

One more example for people who are jittery about accident and bone fracture. My close aide who fell flat from a height of 10 feet suffered fractured spine in the abdomen area. Initially he was admitted in a hospital, and the doctors suggested for surgery. He came across a fellow patient who was crippled after surgery , and by GOD's Grace understood that the treatment by any human system is not wholesome but half baked.

Thereafter in consultation with Dr.Fazlur Rahman resorted to faith healing over phone, and his consoling words helped to tide over difficult times and strengthened his belief in GOD as HEALER. He was only able to move in a sitting position with hunch backed. After two months , one night during high fever his back straightened up, to a great relief and realised as newly born. Since then seven years have passed and he feels even more healthy and their family members too started believing in GOD ALONE as HEALER.

Kindly note that Iam just one among the thousands who have benefited cure from all sort of ailments which are not humanly possible.

Presently this could be difficult for many to comprehend, do not NEGATE , rather feel how nice it would be a community without any ailments , trust in GOD and he is sufficient for us.

balachandran.

supportpeacenotwar

Yes that is what he's saying amongst other things. Dr Fazl's 'one way' approach includes two things, firstly, saying the quran says so and so when it doesn't, and secondly contesting all medical knowledge as being wrong and sinful to accept. When you say what drfazl is doing is somewhat similar to atheists etc is not similar because this isn't an opinion discussion as such. It involves facts which means that he needs to tell us where the reference to what he's claiming exists in the quran ,and the second part which is to give evidence for his anti medical claims.
I don't really know what you agreed with in the post I responded to other than the last part where you said I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. And then explained the trust in God bit. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense.
And I was saying drfazl has no method. Wasn't saying that you said he had a method, was bringing it back to him is all.
If someone makes the claims drfazl makes, it is not like the subtle points you are raising. As in, i don't think this is a similar situation as I've explained. That is my opinion, you can disagree of course. Sorry if I don't like your subtle points? It's got nothing to do with like or dislike, I just don't see the relevance to the drfazl situation. If you think/feel you should clarify further, please go ahead. I'm not sure what to say to the last bit, other than I don't mind the posts/contributions?

Peace savage_carrot,

Really, there is no need I think, for us to drag this out any longer. What I will say is that I am not comparing drfazl with atheists at all. I've already clarified this. This is what I have been saying

"I did not say that what drfazl is doing is like an atheist asking about Jonah and the whale. It appears you have missed my point. My point is that other people could take our approach to trusting in God, believing what they might call 'ludicrous' or simply wrong in terms of the Jonah and the whale story in the same way some people receive drfazl's MAIN argument. Not his personality, not his asides but his MAIN argument. That's what I'm getting at."

I was comparing how drfazl's point is being treated as contentious because of the nature of his claims, in comparison to how others such as some atheists, ex-Muslims may treat some Muslims because of their claims about the Quran. I have explained this in two to three posts now. I am not going to explain it again, since there is no need to like I said.

"I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense."

I don't know what you mean by that, and really, it doesn't matter, like I said, there is no need to continue this discussion. It was one way of considering the situation that has arisen.

In terms of the points about methods and that drfazl is talking about using no methods - I will just leave.

And the subtle point I am raising is about the situation here with drfazl and then the way atheists or other groups may view Muslim claims. It is not about whether the sutble points I make are like drfazls claims about healthcare.

Right now - I am really not enjoying (aspects of) this forum at all (there are some great people here but on the whole, I'm not getting finding much that is that constructive for myself personally, I know you might disagree but that's my opinion no need to get into a discussion about it. And I know it seems like I've been mentioning this a bit here and there - but it isn't just the most heated debates I am talking about. It's more than that.), so there are things I want to say that I will refrain from and that I was alluding to in my last post. But I do think this forum itself exemplifies some of the lessons in the Quran, which is helpful in its own way. This really is about my views on this matter, most might not agree but I'm not about getting people to agree with me either.

unknownuser

Peace all

There is an old saying that we all should ponder on

"When the superior person deals with the world, he is not for or against anything?he just follows what is right."

I believe that there are truths in both modern medicine and in natural/alternative medicine. When it comes to health, we should use what works and discard what doesn't work. Having said that, I think that natural approaches to health are far more superior than artificial approaches to health when it comes to curing diseases.

"Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food?

"The natural healing force within each of us is the greatest force in getting well."

"For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are"

"The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice."

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Mario,

Thank you for sharing those quotes - well put as well, I also favour natural approaches.

unknownuser

Peace Mario,

Thank you for sharing those quotes - well put as well, I also favour natural approaches.

Your welcome )

supportpeacenotwar

Your welcome

Peace Mario,

Ok that's a little cheeky - you added the part about fools after I said well put... hehe. That's the only bit I don't agree with because some people may have a really good intention, especially to God swt, to go solely alternative or faith based. Apart from that, I loved what you said.

unknownuser

Peace Mario,

Ok that's a little cheeky - you added the part about fools after I said well put... hehe. That's the only bit I don't agree with because some people may have a really good intention, especially to God swt, to go solely alternative or faith based. Apart from that, I loved what you said. )

You are right.

The part about fools have been removed )

justamuslim

Manoffaith,

I brought up hadith to convey my point. Some of the hadiths are worth reading and they are good. I am sure you don't disagree with all the hadiths especially the ones that support the Koran or speak of the truths but you won't refer to bukhari in your threads - will you? And so, I am just taken back by your reference to drfazl. Clearly you have issues with hadith followers or anyone for that matter attributing things to God and yet are in support of drfazl. Sorry, but I just don't get that.

I read yours posts and you have read mine about medications as we are more or less on the same page. I get that but i don't believe you are seeing the entire picture or well from the angle that I see or getting my point.

I ask that you please step back and see things for what they are and what drfazl is saying. Drfazl is on a crusade. His position is if you don't believe sharing his views then you are basically sinners. He has made blaring farfetched baseless statements and claims with interweaving some truths. For someone who professes to truly believe in God alone, he is good at not speaking his truths clearly and simply. Have you read his responses to questions asked by me and others? His reaction when questioned pointing out his fallacies and untruths is to put me down, calling names, saying that I am full of hate towards God alone and also that I hate God which he later admitted was wrong.

You know, one thing I learned over the years and from God is how good and evil work. Evil works best in the cloak of disguise appearing very pious, humble, meek and God fearing, playing with human characteristics (from arrogance to humbleness), mixing truths with falsehood, using the same very concepts of God to lead people astray.

Satan will say the same things as God that if you don't listen to him then you are lost and will be lead astray. Often satan uses fear to recruit susceptible individuals in particular believers who fear displeasing God. Satan is most clever and very good at what he does appealing to our intelligence, our emotions, our vulnerabilities, our strengths....never resting, never stops plotting. He is most skillful with words and manipulation. And when he is exposed, called out holding him accountable, he appears to be the victim projecting his behavior onto you accusing you of being harsh, critical, confrontational, of attacking him and appealing to sympathizers to come to his defense. Satan works through people just as God does. We are not even aware that we have fallen prey to satan thinking we are on the right track till we gain wisdom and Wisdom.

Anyhow, I ask that you read newmoons post - how he found comfort in drfazl's words and was lead to God alone. Although drfazl is using the words of God and core concepts, what really is drfazl saying?

it may sound similar but i beg to differ as this is NOT similar to having a discourse with hadith followers or having disagreement over ideology or philosophy or disagreeing over homosexuality being a sin or over salat, ablution, etc.

Drfazl has his views that doctors are shaitaans and if you seek medical care then you are committing an unforgivable sin which he has used the words of God to back up his claims and he has gone on a tirade over health care system and opened up posts on achieving peace.

Manoffaith, this is not just having extreme views. Ok what will someone who has never heard of God Alone think listening to drfazl whose alleged faith in God you say you support? So those who truly worship God alone do not seek medical care? Per Drfazl, I am a "God also" believer. Actually i am evil. Is this what you want people to understand about those who follow Koran only? I agree with you in what you said in your post that we really should ponder on what it means to a believer.

I am blunt but no, i wouldn't say that i am blind to what i see or shall i say what i read.

Anyhow, it is God who teaches us in the Koran how to achieve peace. Islam is really a very simple concept. Nothing complicated.

justamuslim

Just want to add.... I am sure some years ago, someone said that we should all obey prophet Muhammed and follow him as that is what is said in the Koran (the origins of hadiths being born). I am sure someone in the crowd said, hey what you are doing is attributing things to prophet Muhammed which he never said and this is wrong asking for evidence and pointing out fallacies. I am sure those who stood up were silenced with fear and other means. And by sympathizers who although didn't agree with some things didn't really object supporting the faith and belief of hadith followers.

I am sure if I lived in those times, I would have very bluntly objected and I know all too well how I would have been received. Not much different than now.

savage_carrot

I am sure if I lived in those times, I would have very bluntly objected and I know all too well how I would have been received. Not much different than now.

We've all felt that way to some extent I think, some people argue over the stupidest things even when the evidence is right under their noses and even when they can see it. People argue even when it's got nothing to do with the subject. And all of us have our own reasons for doing so, some of which we can't see ourselves. It's crazy. Sometimes you're like what's the point, and sometimes those times are when there is a point.