4:129 you cannot be fair to women, or among wives?
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Salamun'alaikum KTHRN and all.
If you still depending on traditional Sunni's translations, you will see cotradiction between verse 4127 and 4129.
If Allah said if man cannot be fair with his wives in 4129, then why Allah allowing the poligamy in 4127.
Strange right?You will see difference of 4127 translation between Quranist's and traditionalist's
And they request from you, , a ruling concerning women. Say, " Allah gives you a ruling about them and what has been recited to you in the Book concerning the orphan girls to whom you do not give what is decreed for them - and you desire to marry them - and concerning the oppressed among children and that you maintain for orphans in justice." And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is ever Knowing of it. (Shaheeh International)
And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Book regarding the orphans? mothers whom you wish to marry but have not given them what was decreed for them, and the oppressed from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it. (Free-Minds)
See that blue words from both translation is different each other, so which is the true one?
That blue word in original arabic teks is "yatama-nisaa'i".
"yatama" means orphans / "nisaa'i means woman.
But the problem is the word "yatama" is a male noun word, so the orphan in that verse is male orphan not female orphan.
So this means we translate "yatama-nisaa'i" as " male orphan woman" then if we intepretate with verse 43 that woman must be that male orphan's mother.This means Free-Minds translation is the correct one.
So the conclusion is yes according to the verse 43, the poligamy is allowed.But the function of polygamy according to 4127 is to help the widow (orphan's mother) for funding her sons (orphans).
So polygamy is not to fullfill the mens's sexual desire and what mens must married for polygamy is the widow not a virgin woman.So there is no descrimination gender in Islam.
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Peace,
I have been thinking about 43 and I think it means some sort of bond or special contract you have with these widows so they are mahram to you when you take care of them and not like a normal marriage, so they do not always have to cover themselves while living in your home and maybe you might not even have sex with them. And it might be a temporary contract so the orphans are not exposed to various threats, as the world for women and her lonely children was probably harsh in the 7th century. That is why men were probably more useful in the past (if some feminists believe we are useless today).
It feels like a more viable interpretation of this rather than the man having 4 wives just because of the widows lost their husbands.
It is not particularly often today so many husbands die that you get so many widows to take care of, but it may happen in wartorn areas. I still think the "extra" women in your household are there for protection and the children to have a fatherly figure around.
It is my best interpretation without ignoring information in the verses of the Book while trying to express myself in a way I believe God would have thought it to be. I do not want to fall victim to conjecture, but it is the best interpretation I have personally.
I mean, true polygamy cannot be healthy for the wives involved having to share their husband with others and it seems unfair that one sex gets these privileges.
Well, I hope God will correct me if I am wrong. May God bless you folks.
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I have been thinking about 43 and I think it means some sort of bond or special contract you have with these widows so they are mahram to you when you take care of them and not like a normal marriage, so they do not always have to cover themselves while living in your home and maybe you might not even have sex with them.
Maybe, but didn't you notice the word "nikah" in 43?
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Peace Earthdom,
Yes, but perhaps the meaning is not completely the same as traditional understanding.
God bless you
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peace KTHRN,
I recommend http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part2
Scroll down on above page and you will find a detailed analysis of these verses.
In order to better understand 434 we must also translate and analyse 4128, in which a wife feared nushuz from her husband
They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the women orphans who you want to marry without giving them what has been ordained/written for them, as well as the powerless children, and stand for orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it.
And if a woman feared from her husband uprising/disloyalty or alienation /turning away, then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation; and the reconciliation is better. And miserliness/selfishness is present in the souls, and if you do good and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is aware what you do.
And you will not be able to be fair between the women even if you make every effort; so do not deviate all the deviation so you leave her as one hanging. And if you reconcile and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is Forgiving, Merciful.
And if they separate, then God will provide for each of them from His bounty. God is Vast, Wise.Analysis of 4128 and context
"And if a woman feared..." (Arabic khafat, root Kha-Waw-Fa) is in the perfect form, meaning an action done or completed. In contrast to 434, it is not an ongoing fear, it is perfect tense, i.e. the action of fearing happened by the subject. In other words, what follows is what to do if "nushuz or iAAradan" is feared to have taken place or is feared to be happening. This is a crucial distinction. Interestingly, even though it is in the past tense, the word "feared" is still used, and not "found" or "committed" for example, meaning it still does not refer to something obvious/blatant, and there is an element of relativity/subjectivity to it. This is an important point to reflect upon.
"...uprising or turning away..." (Arabic iAAradan, root Ayn-Ra-Dad) literally means "turning away" and is stated separately from "uprising / nushuz".
Again the word "feared" implies a degree of relativity, i.e. judging "iAAradan" is subjective, thus is not something obvious. Many translators opted for "desertion" which is not quite right because in the context the husband is unwilling to initiate divorce, which implies "desertion" is unlikely to be feared. Also, whatever "iAAradan" means it must be sufficiently distinct from "nushuz" hence a differentiation can be made. By cross-referencing its other usage in The Quran the only possibility is "turning away", and in this context may be better understood as alienation; which means make withdrawn or isolated or emotionally dissociated. M. Abdel Haleem opts for this in his translation, and "estrangement" can be found in 'Quran a Reformist Translation' by Yuksel et al., and others opt for similar words such as "aversion/evasion".
Interestingly, this may shed light on why 4128 uses "wa/and" as a continuation from the previous verse 4127 which is about the man wishing to marry an orphan woman in an non-Quranic manner, e.g. without giving them what is written for them (e.g. inheritance if any, dowry). So, let's assume, this same man already has a wife, there are only a few possibilities
(1) if the current wife gives consent, then all is fine.
(2) the wife says no, and the husband accepts the decision without problems.
(3) the wife says no, and the husband disagrees or agrees superficially but becomes suspected of causing problems.
Situation (3) would result in the wife being in fear of rising up (above marital/relationship limits, e.g. disloyalty/infidelity) or turning away (alienation), from her husband. As we can see, our understanding of "nushuz" and "iAAradan" fit perfectly in both 434 and 4128. Please note, that is not to say that what is being discussed in 4128-129 is a husband doing such a thing, it is only one possible situation, and this specific situation simply helps to serve as a checking mechanism to ensure we have a reasonable grasp of the words being used.
It should also be noted that since nushuz can be done by either partner (husband or wife) the term cannot signify a ruler-ruled relationship, as some translators imply.
"...then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation; and the reconciliation is better..."
Since the wife feared a wrong has been done, emphasis is given that even in such a situation reconciliation is better, i.e. better than being uncompromising or separating. This can be equally applied to a reversal of situation, as shown by 434. One possible reason for the use of "there is no blame upon them that they reconcile" is because of other verses which state "adulterer for adulterer", "marry those who are good", "corrupt women are for corrupt men, good women for the good men" etc, see 243, 2426, 2432. In other words, a suspected/unproven case of wrongdoing, is not the same as a proven case, so there is no blame if they reconcile. It could be argued that this explanation does not quite explain WHY it adds "...between themselves", as assigning blame upon a couple if they reconciled between themselves seems a very unusual thing to imply. This seemingly simple yet important observation will be returned to later. It should be noted that the command is a conditional one "And IF a woman feared.... then....."."miserliness/selfishness" (Arabic al shshuhha, root Shiin-Ha-Ha) literally means non-giving / stingy, and is understandable in the context of reconciliation, compromise, possible compensation etc. It also links with 4127.
"conscientious/forethoughtful" (Arabic tattaqoo, root Waw-Qaf-Ya) literally means guarding or guarding oneself by means of something, i.e. by being forethoughtful/conscientious/mindful/preserving of one's duty, guards oneself from any possible punishment from God.
"...so do not deviate all the deviation..." (Arabic fala tameeloo kulla al mayli, root Miim-Ya-Lam), see 427 for similar occurrence (Arabic tameeloo maylan AAatheeman).
This implies some deviation has occurred, advising not to deviate all the way, i.e. emphasising to do the right thing. This usage further reinforces the implication that the husband is in the wrong in this situation or the cause of negativity, and use of the perfect/past tense of "feared"."... as one hanging..." (Arabic ka al muAAallaqati, root Ayn-Lam-Qaf) literally means like/as the suspended/hanging/stuck.
Lane's Lexicon states for this specific context a wife whose husband has been lost to her or been left in suspense; neither husbandless nor having a husband; husband does not act equitably with her or release her; left in suspense.
It is clear from 4129 that the husband has not initiated divorce/talaq yet and is given two options either reconcile (i.e. act equitably) or separate (i.e. divorce her). One may wonder if the wife is in such a situation, why doesn't she initiate divorce/release? The likely answer is given in 4128 by the use of "feared", as the usage of this word in The Quran is when whatever is feared is undesired by the subject. Unlike other words, which are closer to suspicion, doubt, perceive, think or suppose (Arabic roots n-k-r, r-y-b, sh-k-k, w-j-s, za-n-n). There is also a possibility that she may be financially dependent on him, thus if she initiates release, courts may allocate less in settlement, especially if no provable wrongdoing has been committed by the husband . Thus she may not wish to divorce but is unhappy with her husband and/or marriage. Hence the emphasis on the husband to do the right thing. Similarly, we can see in 434, when it is the husband fearing something, he adopts a preventative procedure, i.e. whatever he fears is undesired by him."And if they separate..." (Arabic yatafarraqa, root Fa-Ra-Qaf) is in the dual form.
The only other time this root is used in the context of divorce procedure is 652, in which the couple separate/fariqoo, after initiating divorce/talaq and completion of the provisional divorce interim waiting period, i.e. to separate/FRQ is the final step. -
Salaam, I'm a little curious about the translation of this verse. In my Dutch translation of the Quran, this contains more annotations than verse!
Free minds translation
4127 And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say "God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Book regarding the orphans' mothers whom you wish to marry but have not given them what was decreed for them, and the oppressed from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality." Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.
4128 And if a woman fears from her husband desertion or disregard, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do.
4129 And you will not be able to be fair regarding the women even if you make every effort; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. And if you reconcile and do right, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4130 And if they separate, then God will provide for each of them from His bounty. God is Vast, Wise.Pickthall (and other popular translations are similar)
Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.So which one is it? Can men not be completely fair towards women, or can a man not give equal amounts of attention to his multiple wives?
peace
Salamun alaiki,
4127 Text is expository--question/answer-problem/solution.
The topic of the text is
And they certain people seek of you the Messenger your personal jurisprudential ruling about certain women.
Seeking of information is by certain plural number of people.
Information is sought from the Messenger
Information sought is not general but his personal jurisprudential ruling; not divine ruling.
This jurisprudential ruling is sought with reference to certain women.The Messenger is advised to respond in the words relayed to him.
Firstly the important point is addressed It is not for the Messenger to give jurisprudential rulings. Without saying this the point is brought home to the seekers by telling themYou tell them "Not me but Allah the Exalted, by that which is mentioned to you word by word of the Book-Qur'aan, gives you the legal ruling regarding the Father-Orphaned Lonely Women.
You can further analyse the text.
So which one is it? Can men not be completely fair towards women, or can a man not give equal amounts of attention to his multiple wives?
4129 After resolving the problem discussed in 4128 an information is given which is natural and its resolution is indicated
However know it You people will never be able to attain a capability that you might maintain absolute justice between your wives even if you had vehemently wished it.
Therefore, for reason of this natural fact and to remain near to justice, you people should not turn away, an altogether turning, whereby you leave her-one wife in the manner as flesh separated from bone making her like something suspended-hanging.does not mean being fair. Absolute justice involves both economic and physical. The fact is that which Allah the Exalted is announced. suffers impractibility. Therefore, a solution is given that things must not go to that extent.
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Salaam all, thank you so much for your translations. Not speaking Arabic, I only had a suspicion that the verse did not actually mention "wives", just women. It's very interesting to note, thank you Mazhar, that the word fairness is not used, instead God speaks of "the maintanance of absolute justice". I do believe there is a reason for His specific choices of words.
We may be tempted to read the word "wives" in verse 129, but perhaps it is a general statement which aplies to this situation (wife fearing her husband turning away from her, feeling suspended between being unwanted yet not divorced etc..) but also aplies to other situations involving women (who do not need to be wives neccesarily). Such as a man may not always be able to provide a wife with what she needs because he is too poor/ may not be completely kind to women because he is in a bad mood/ may not deal justly with women in another way because he is just a man and only God can be completely just.
In that way the verse would roughly mean something like "men you do not not need to be too hard on yourself because you cannot deal with women in a way that is completely just/ women may still find fault with your treatment of you no matter what you do (p). But at least do the best you can do so as to not leave them hanging/ fearing that you are distancing yourself from them." I guess that's a very liberal interpretation, at the very least it would mean what Huruf mentioned earlier. (And I disagree Huruf, the good, chivalrous men still make a much larger impression than the superficial, cruel ones. The problem for women is, however, that there are only so very few of them left in the world '( )
One last thing I am curious about then is it written as "maintain justice towards women" or "maintain justice between women"? If it contained "between" then yes, this would only refer to a situation of multiple wives...
And concerning that, thanks for the info, Earthdom, that is indeed good news! (Don't you agree, Aamer?) p
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again whether it sys baina or fi or whatever, the context belies that it is dealing with multile wives, but with conflicts with women in circumstances like divorce and subsequent marriage. It does not say wives and there is nothing in the precedent or following ayas that makes it simultneous wives. That men can be unfair and even outrageous when changing wives is something too much seen to now someone comes and think that would be unthinkable and there are other ayas in the qur'an where this aspect of being unjust with the women int he course of divorce or not wanting divorce is laid out.
There is the fact also that it does not say "your" women. In fact it is so careful, that it does not leave any room for doubt. The Qur'an says many times nisaa'ukum, even when it is not about wives, just women, but when it is about wives, that I can remember, it uses some possessive, why on earth here it does no use the possessive which would be a better indication that it was talking about the women of those addressed and instead says THE women, instead of your women. Are women denied the right to be what they are except that they be the wives of somebody? If it is not so, why then it does nto say your women and says THE women. The women involved, who may not be your women, who may be your future women or your past women or the women you have disgraced and you didn't marry or do nto intend to marry, for instance.
Some muslims seem to be hypnoticed with the idea of poligamy. They see it everywhere.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
The only apparent lawfulness of "polygamy" seems to be under rare or special conditions. Just marrying several wives to "look cool" is not okay. The sharia laws in several countries are flawed in many ways and are not really "sharia". I think this idea of laws is a man-made invention anyhow. God did not say His words are compulsory and something that should be forced upon someone. Most of them are a recommendation for a better living, and He says that it may be against His liking to do them.
There are some crimes, but their punishment is still against the Quran in traditional sharia laws ,for example, considered adultery holds a death penalty in Sunnah while God mentions lashing and isolating them "until a way out is found for them". Neither solution means death is involved.
The polygamy is still very discouraged and God says most men can never be fair to several wives and should be stick to just one. But Muslim countries seem to proclaim polygamy as if it was an explicit right for men. This is a lie.
God bless you
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Between the wives
Arabic is such a language that does not leave things at the disposal of reader to assume whatever he likes to assume. If he does so to satisfy his own preconceived notions, he will expose his own stupidity, causing no damage to the text. Text remains there.
4128 is about husband and wife; single couple. And the advice is for reconciliation which is declared as the best option and course.
The discourse continues with conjunction-discourse coordinator Waw. is definite noun. The definite noun does not denote the entire group of the women. It refers here only and only to wives. And advice is not to leave one of wives altogether ignored as is evident from singular pronoun. And again reconciliation is advised. -
The polygamy is still very discouraged and God says most men can never be fair to several wives and should be stick to just one. But Muslim countries seem to proclaim polygamy as if it was an explicit right for men. This is a lie.
It was ordered to address and solve a situational problem.
Polygamy as a Custom of having many spouses for pleasure is not allowed in the Grand Qur'aan
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peace all,
They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the women orphans who you want to marry without giving them what has been ordained/written for them, as well as the powerless children, and stand for orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it.
And if a woman/imraatun feared from her husband/baali uprising/disloyalty or alienation /turning away, then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation; and the reconciliation is better. And miserliness/selfishness is present in the souls, and if you do good and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is aware what you do.
And you will not be able to be fair between the women/nisa even if you make every effort; so do not deviate all the deviation so you leave her as one hanging. And if you reconcile and are conscientious/forethoughtful, then surely God is Forgiving, Merciful.
And if they separate (dual), then God will provide for each of them from His bounty. God is Vast, Wise.
