Clothing code for believing women
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when it comes to clothes can't be same. Man should cover himself but not like a woman. Nobody cares about man's boobs rotfl
Peace,
I didn't mean that men and women cover themselves in the same way. I meant that modesty in all ways is practiced by men and women.
Well, it is mentioned in hadiths and the Bible, women must cover their hair/head when pray, but this is not 100%, its based on my research. If you go to mosque or ortodox church you will see all women covered, they do this for centuries so why should you be different?
I could ask you the question though Why do I have to do that just because all those people do it?
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Peace,
Men should also dress modestly. Only reason I think there is certain emphasis on women in Quran is because women seem to innately rely on their beauty and therefore be revealing more than necessary to be approved of. I am not talking for all women but generally.
Also, women who are past the prospect of marriage can relax the dress code a little, so it is the features of beauty which should be covered. What should be reduced is the features which may induce involuntary temptation in the male counterparts. On the other hand, the men needs to act modestly too and should guard their minds. But it is hard if the woman is showing part of her breasts and the outfit is very tight or simply showing a lot of skin in daring ways. Loads of makeup can also be immodest.
An old woman is simply not that attractive that she will immediately attract the gazes of men, but she should of course still hide private parts and not dress immodestly.
I am sure it is this modesty the Quran is talking about and when it mentions not to reveal her beauty. When we dress to intentionally look attractive and especially for people to see our beauty, then we are immodest.
I think fewer men wish to reveal more of their bodies in a show of their beauty. But men are also told to be modest and the dress code is a good way to start. Think about very tight T-shirts on a muscular body, this is not very modest, is it? But men do not have the same attracting features of their body as women have. Men simply have to conceal their roughest features, ie the muscles at most and the private parts of course.
Wearing a hat can be an act of modesty, but I really feel one is too extreme if they deem the show of hair to be offensive or lack of modesty.
Certainly, men can be turned on by a long healthy female hair, but we have to draw the limits somewhere. However, if the hair is very long and beautiful the woman should be mindful of this. Also, very feminine gestures with the body should be avoided in the company of other men than the family. The Quran has one example when a woman strikes down with her heels in her walk so that it will look sexy.
Unfortunately, I do not find it wrong with the classical "hijab", but... I should never be forced upon someone. And covering the hair could also be something men can think about.
Most important is that we work on our modesty and that we do not make a wanton display.
God bless you
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There is no hint in the qur'an that what is said to the women in 24.31 is meant to guard men from temptation. And there is clear indication that it is not that since whatever it is that women are told to do or not do they must not do either in front of women who are not their women. So women and men get the same treatment, so there is not a question that the mission of women is to keep men from temptation or that it is a special duty for them, that is not enjoined on all believers. It is the men themselves who must keep themselves from temptation.
Think of Yusuf and what the Qur'an says about him. Should not what happened to him with the women have been a good opportunity for God to enjoin women to not tempt men and to cover and what not? But nothing, aboslutely nothing is said at that point. Women are not even reprimanded by god or by the prophet and it is women who justify their fault on his good looks. No rebuke from God.
Nothing is said at that point. Nor are the women lectured not to tempt men.
All believers, without distinction are enjoined to not get near zina and avoid it. Women are responsible for themselves, not for men. Each person is responsible for herself or himself.
What I find most disgusting of all this merchandising talk about women bodies is that consistently it is used to subordinate the women and their comfort, needs and wishes to the concocted "needs" or weaknesses of men. The Qur'an does not give permission for that nor says anthing that sustains such a subservience. In fact it clearle orders men to guard their chastity exactly as it tells women to do it. So with all this garbage about dress code and what not is completely beside the point. Women are not responsible for the virtue of men (as if that was possible). in fact fight off certain kind of men is quite enough of a job for their own virtue, let alone take care of the virtue of that ype of men. Preposterous. If some men feel that somebody else must watch for their virtue, then they should be acknowledged as incapacitated and suffer the consequent civil restrictions on their capacity to act. That is what is done legally when somebody is not able to control his acts.
It is shocking that when it is feared that women loose their virtue, limitations are imposed on women, and when it is feared that men may loose their virtue limitations are also imposed om women. Where in the Qur'an is such a deal? Nobody notices the joke?
So are men diminished human beings or are they not? I know they are not and that they do not need that women take care of their virtue of men and that they are quite capable of looking after themselves, their virtue comprised if they want to look after their virtue. When they do not look after their virtue it is because they do not want to look after their virtue. No mystery there. Some indeed want to do away with their virtue as much as possible and they find fantastic that women are blamed for their disinterest in their own virtue.
It must also be a joke that where women are suposedly really loose, which is the west, there muslim men behave themselves, even if women are "naked" but that if they are in a "muslim" country where women are hijabed or similar, then suddenly that is not even enough and they also are tempted and they do not seem to have enough of limits on women, and then nikab and then burka and then confined.
The Qur'an does not relate women dress to men's virtue and whoever relates it it is of his own accord not because of anything the Qur'an says.
Clearer
60.12 O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins) for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (12)
Here we have a clear, concise compendium of what is exacted from women believers by God for their fealty to be accepted by the Prophet. Nothing about dress. Nothing about caring for the virtue of men. Nothing about obedience to the husband or father or brother or whatever. Nothing. On the other hand, not to kill their children, not to slander, no falsehood... The priorities of God for women seem clear, and the male complaints about how much their hormones suffer because of women, contours or no contours, are not part of them. They are ignored.
Really not a genius is necessary to set out those priorities, but when it comes to women we already know that common sense is discarded from the start and the compulsion to burden women with whatever and rule them around takes over.
Salaam
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Peace,
Note that my post contained ideas on how to be modest and was not really attempting to subordinate women. I gave ideas for men as well.
It is quite common that women actively make a show of their beauty and emphasize on their femininity. They wish others to confirm their beauty.
I have no problem with people dressing in whatever way the like, but I feel uncomfortable talking to a woman revealing part of her breasts and wearing a miniskirt and the clothing being as tight as it can be.
And sometimes I do not wish to see the beauty of a woman but I am forced to unless I look down on the floor or look another way. This may give a slightly impolite signal.
But anyway, modest clothing and I am okay even if it is a beautiful woman. Veil is optional. But not a dress revealing too much.
Anyway, I cannot decide for other people but it is what I consider modest.
God bless you
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Peace everyone,
I have to say, I agree with much of what huruf as put. Although I can also understand other people's beliefs on this matter.
In terms of beauty, although both men and women can be attracted to each other because of physical attractiveness and outward appearances - 'true beauty' transcends this, I believe. At the end of the day, I'm attracted to a person because of who they are primarily not just because they look nice.
The Quran is encouraging modesty, I believe, so that we can be stronger people, who are spiritually grounded. If the Quran was to teach modesty for women (and men as well but the topic here had shifted to women's modesty) is that really primarily because of men's lust - would that then mean that men are more shallow? Then should there be something in the Quran to teach men about how to overcome shallowness? I don't think that's what its really getting at when it talks about modesty as huruf has already pointed out.
Modesty is not just in dress but in actions and behaviour and the Quran clearly gives examples of this. So modesty seems to be much more about how to live as a believer, on a path towards God. Although of course, it is a good thing and part of modesty if you aren't encouraging men's/women's lusts etc. But I don't think we can say that is the entire point of modesty.
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
It is quite known that the bodylines of a female stirs up emotions in a male.
But like I said, simply not acting like a typical female is enough, covering and not showing breasts and such things. Men have a responsibility too and we should guard our thoughts.
Put both should dress moderately. A muscular man should not have a T-shirt which is very tight either.
God bless you
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Beauty and enticement are not the same thing. There is nothing wrong with being or looking beautiful. But there is wrong with looking ostentatious, showing off, calling attention. The distinction is plain, and even if people cling at straws on words, the fact is that they know exactly the difference, but it is one of those "loopholes"? that are exploited so as to encumber women with "feelings" of men. I have never seen a decent man affirm that he is dependent on women attitudes in order to keep virtue. Men, also lustful men, happen to be quite, quite capable of keeping control when their money or their power is at stake. Then there is no woman at all that is going to entice them. So, poor things, they are stirred. Every person, of any sex is stirred by different things, sexual or not. Being stirred is a fact of life and nobody would dream of making others act on his or her stirrements.
So the virtue of women not to show off, not to call attention, not to display their goods, or their jewely or anything else is meant for the virtue of women, for their freedom from the exigences on their bodies and appearance, either way. It is not meant so that anybody is freed from keeping track of his or her own lusts and stirrments.
The example of Yusuf is there for something. But it seems that men are not interested in it at all. Much more entertaining to keep on and on on how they are stirred.
Think for instance that instead of the Qur'an bringing the examle of Yusuf resisting temptation it would have been a woman in the Qur'an who would have been in the very same situation, what would have been made of it and how we would never stop hearing about women's duty to resist absolutely anything, any temptation and their responsibility no matter what. Not that that is not expected from women, but at least the Qur'an cannot be called to contribute for that. Since it was a man who is a model of resisting lust, nothing, but nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is made out of it. Nobody has any use for it except as a fairy tale.
It is so sad, so very sad, to the lengths that the Qur'an goes to teach men and women and how artfully everything is diverted from the most obvious and clear to twisting words and extracting unsaid meanings out of anything.
Is in the Qur'an a clear exampple given of men being quite capable if they are virtuous or resisting any assault, not enticement, assault? Is it given or not?
It is. No room to hide. Not in the Qur'an. May be in some other hadith, but not in the most truthful, honourable Qur'an.
So once again, let us keep separate men's virtue and womens clothing or not clothing. They are two completely different matters. The first pertains to men exclusively and the other pertains to women exclusively.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
Thanks for your words. Of course all opinions are valuable.
I still think Quran focuses a little on women and clothing due to their natural desire to look beautiful to be confirmed as a healthy female of breeding age. Not saying that you cannot be feminine, but anyway it is what I feel Quran is saying, particularly with the not to strike down your heels when you walk.
The desired result in the end is modesty and not oppression of women such as some Mullahs seem to interpret it. The Quran does not tell women to wear a veil or really what to specifically cover for that matter. But when it speaks of covering the chest I take it as to not dress in a challenging way.
It seems weird to think a woman should look like a ghost with a "chador" and some mask over their face, that they are not allowed to look like a human but someone who only exists behind a lot of fabric. And this just to avoid the lusts of men. That is very weird.
And on the other hand, despite this, men should be able to meet even unrighteous women who dress in a challenging way and be able to guard the chastity. This also with women who dress moderately but not in a traditional muslim attire.
We cannot escape from the truth that it is often so that women seek confirmation of their beauty. And many wish to try this ability to charm and tempt too.
Do not get me wrong, men or particularly young men do this too, but not in the same way. Men focus more on the social status, physical strength, money, courage, independence and so on.
If we look from the scientific side it is how we are genetically programmed.
God bless you
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Peace everyone,
Man of Faith - I don't really understand your first response to me. I said that I understand all opinions and beliefs in this matter based on the argument/theory they are coming from. I'm sorry if you somehow feel my contribution is not helping here - but that's the point of a forum, we can all state our own points rather than control each other and all think the same way.
Modesty is a central part of Islam and the Quran. When the Quran tells us to be modest and not arrogant, are we doing this for other people? Well, all I can say is personally I do not view it that way. So I view all modesty in the way I said before.
I think that to deliberately try and stir lusts in either men or women is against modesty. But I also think there is more to it that just that, as I previously mentioned.
In terms of being genetically programmed - could you explain a little what you mean by that? Do you mean programmed to focus on looks?
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Well, we are fixated around sexuality when it comes to modesty. Being modest has deep connections with personality and behavior and collocate with humble.
Well, forget about what I said about science, there is no consensus about developed or innate gender identity. I did not think before I wrote.
Your words or any other words are helpful one way or another.
God bless you
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There is no genetically programmed for women to be thinking primordially about their looks in order to get approval or to get socially accepted (not good looking women are not socially acceptable), that is social programming, and it is against that programming, social programming that the Qur'an "vaccinates" women in 24.31. Since the way the must not show themselves alies equally to females and males, their is not question of there being a sexual preservative for male virtue, because in that case it should be admitted that women are also aroused by women, which of course may be, but then those who think that what is said in 24.31 is about sexual modesty for the males, should explain that.
The fact again is that those injonctions are for the good of the females so that they do not spend their money their minds and their talents in attracting or surpassing other women in attractiveness but that they spend their capacities in more rewarding pursuits. And again clothing is for very little in the picture. The covering of the bossom must be ovserved also in front of women, so it is not about attracting lust, unless we admit that women are attracted sexually to women, but if we are dealing with the status part of the beauty of women, for the sake of their own dignity of not being measured by the look of their attractions. To judge by the number of breast costmetic surgery for women in order to be "attractive", again it looks as if those injonctions are after the well being of women and not after the lusts of males.
Salaam
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Peace,
Okay. Okay. Forget I said anything.
God bless you
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Well, we are fixated around sexuality when it comes to modesty. Being modest has deep connections with personality and behavior and collocate with humble.
Well, forget about what I said about science, there is no consensus about developed or innate gender identity. I did not think before I wrote.
Your words or any other words are helpful one way or another.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
Why, that's a rather chilly response. Kind of contradicts what you told me via PM when you thought I meant I was leaving, although I didn't mean that, although that crosses my mind sometimes when I'm here.
I have to say something about my experience here I have received some very positive responses from non-Muslims when I discuss with them, people who are not following Islam but are open minded to Islam. Then when I come here, I find I have to try hard to get anything positive back. Although, there are some pleasant exchanges between myself and a few other members and there are, some good resources. When I put down responses, I do so with thought and sometimes I try to modify my responses to make them clearer. I notice a few others do that here too and I appreciate the effort. That they try to convey their findings in case it might help someone else and that is exactly the reason I do this.
When I compare my experience, between non-Muslim and Muslim, those who use that label - I start wondering, who is really behaving in a more Islamic way sometimes? I know some believers feel passionately, I understand that and things will get heated, but I feel like it's an important lesson. One that I find again in the Quran. This has been something that I've thought about so I might as well share it.
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Thank you all for your posts, there are interesting points made here...
I just have to say about the story of Yusuf it is the point of women making a move and as we know in the Quran God said "And she certainly determined him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This could be interpreted that she could have had more power in that moment over him, and that generally women are the ones who have more control. I agree that no one is responsible for other peoples virtues but if you'd for example walk around insulting people and if someone insulted you back you cannot say you didn't have anything to do with his reaction - your conduct can trigger people's bad behavior.
Also Huruf, you said in 60.12 there is nothing about dress, but if you see there is "and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter"
and then we have 2431 "And tell the believing women to..." in this ayat the Prophet tells them something which they should obey - at least we have the advice to cover their chests, which is directly related to the dress code.So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
I am terribly sorry, I have had a rough day and my emotions got the better of me.
Your input is welcome and I appreciate what you say in several threads. I have been a bad muslim today...
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
I don't think you've been a bad Muslim. On some threads, you have been quite supportive of me, and other people haven't chipped in to help but you have. So don't be too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes. Maybe it helps to know that I am not against you or attacking your opinon and I support your right to your approach even if I occasionally disagree. We are human so we are bound to disagree on a few things!
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Thank you all for your posts, there are interesting points made here...
I just have to say about the story of Yusuf it is the point of women making a move and as we know in the Quran God said "And she certainly determined him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This could be interpreted that she could have had more power in that moment over him, and that generally women are the ones who have more control. I agree that no one is responsible for other peoples virtues but if you'd for example walk around insulting people and if someone insulted you back you cannot say you didn't have anything to do with his reaction - your conduct can trigger people's bad behavior.
Also Huruf, you said in 60.12 there is nothing about dress, but if you see there is "and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter"
and then we have 2431 "And tell the believing women to..." in this ayat the Prophet tells them something which they should obey - at least we have the advice to cover their chests, which is directly related to the dress code.So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
Of course, Yusuf was chosen as servant because he had relied on God's evidence. We all have the proof of our Rabb, whether we relay on our human fitra or on revelation. If we fall for something that we know is wrong and we believe is wrong, it is because we do not believe that much really that it is wrong, because we do not see the evidence of God no matter what we say and therefore we give ourselves permission to do that which in principle we know we must not do because we are pandering to our lusts and not to our faithfulness to our fitra and there to God. That is, it is not that we are unable to avoid it, it is that we do not believe in it. Men who lust after women and pursue it do not believe in virtue. But since the virtue of men is very rarely called into account and they can get away with anything, it is only those men who are really conscious who will refrain from the wrong things. The others simply do not have the necessary belief. Not all women have that belief, but traditionally they have for more to loose, and therefore an incentive to, even if they are not conscious, for their own good they may refrain. Modernly with condoms and pils and other means of avoidance of pregnancy, women feel also less need to be virtues by need. They still have more to loose but the distance with men is shorter, therefore the give in more to their lusts.
Be it as it may it does not mean that because they have more to loose that men are in their power, that is ridiculous. I am tired of seeing, I have said it already, that men control themselves wonderfully when it is in their own interest to do so and they stand to loose something. Using women for them is just gain, no downside, so why should they keepp themselves from using them. Other thing of course will be before God's judgement. Any man will fall for temptation of an attractive woman if he gives licence to himself to do so, not if he does not give licence to himself to do so. Yusuf did not give licence to himself, he was conscious. He knew his virtue was in his hands, not in in someone else's hands. And no man who wants to be virtuous finds himself abandoned by God. You first turn away from God and then give in to whatever brings apparent gain to you without having to pay for it. And I insist that there are virtuous men, that keep faithfulness and keep their chastity. But that is, they really believe.
For the dress code, I thought a code consists of a set of instructions. In that sentence you say about the boobs, what are the other instructions concerning clothing? Is it just cover the chesst? Is that a code? A code with just one thing? Well, fine. What is the Qur'an dress code for women? Not very long cover boobs. Not like having to think about millimiters or centimeters and oh I forgot to put this on or take that off or whatever. Very simple. Dress code.
So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
Thsi word modesty in English seems to have been chosen to be misleading, because it can mean at the same time the opposite of boastful and the opposite of indecent. So which modesty are we talking about?
As far as I am concerned, it is about the first one. About the second one, clothes are the least part of it. That is why the Qur'an, I think does not get tangled on it, because what in one place or at one time may be considered decent enough, at it may not be somewhere or time else. So it is more an attitude than any clothes. And that is why both men and women are told to guard their chastity, their sexual parts, because it is not a matter of clothes, although the clothes may be involved, but a matter of will and attitude. A look can do what no clothes or lack of them can manage. That is why the burqas are such a great thing. No looks from women, that keeps men safe. Of course that keeps men safe but not women because for that men should also wear burqas. Or aren't we women worth protecting from sin? We might start a campaign for unisex burqa. Because let us not forget part of the injuction given equally to both men and women regards the look, the stares. So much bandwith and paper and ink spent on womens clothes and so little on the way we look in spite of it being universal. Is that not a look code?
I think the part that is directed to women only in 24.31 relates to the first kind of modesty. If we think that the Qur'an is directed to the whole world and not just to certain people of certain time, it is normal that it doesn't go very much into clothes, because obviously there is not a universal all time code and within each environment there are always ways to be modest and ways to be boastful, exhibitionist or indecent.
As to inside or outside the house, I think again that depends on the environment. Today in the "developed" world people dress a lot the same inside and outside the house, long sporting slacks and loose jumpers. And when it is hot the same thing but short sleeves or sleveless and may be shorts. A different thing is work, where there may be a dress code, but a real dress code, no a mere "cover the boobs".
Salaam
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I am sick of women being compared to watermelons, lollipops, roosters, candies etc to force women to cover up almost fully or fully. I still remeber when I was scrolling my Facebook newsfeed, I saw a post shared by my friend. It was a post about women being equal to featherless roosters for not covering their hair. Wait! If the women do not wear veil, doesn't mean that they are fully naked like featherless roosters.
And I still remember reading a blog entry on why women must wear headcover. They gave reasons that lollipops must be covered or they will be spoiled.
Why are women often considered as objects? Whilst men are true humans? Well I know that women have more attractions than men (breasts, hips, thighs) but it does no mean that hair or even face must be covered.
I have read a tweet of a hardcore niqabi saying that women like her are the only good women and may be rewarded much better husbands than those who don't cover their hair. Extreme types of Sectarian "Muslims" love saying that women are like jewels to justify their obligation of veiling for women.
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Salam huruf,
I've read your posts in this thread and I feel that you have come to a very genuine insight. I really like what you write and I find it deeper and more enlightened than what one usually comes by. Wonderful to read!
I also just wanted to add some observations of my own, not directly on the topic, but still related in a way
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The quran is a very powerful book. One feature it seems to have is that it "helps" one to expose oneself. It is quite flexible in interpretation, which means it allows one to "see what you want to see" and interpret things in whatever way one desires. So, if we seek peace and balance then we will find this in the quran.... but even the oppressors will find "evidence" for their inclinations. This doesn't mean there is no right way to interpret the text, because obviously Truth stand apart from falsehood... but as always, WE have to initiate the direction and intention towards truth WITHIN OURSELVES first, then God will help us on the way... but it is we who are responsible for ourselves. So, if someone is sadistic and stone-hearted enough to prefer cutting of hands, then that person will find some "evidence" of this in the quran, even though this evidence may be inherently flawed and false. The quran acts in a way as a mirror of yourself. Not just a mirror, but almost like some dangerous tool... if you use it properly it will be of great benefit, but if you misuse it, you may get badly injured (from inventing lies about God).
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On a different topic... I find it that it is disasterous for a society to disrespect and degrade women. It is amazing that societies at large are so blind to the importance of woman, and rather prefer to degrade them. There are sayings in some societies that a woman will shape seven generations... so one can imagine what impact a woman can have on society... and it should be obvious when remembering that children are very much shaped by women, more so than men, at least in terms of upbringing. Perhaps people would call it coincidence, or unfounded, and most likely the situation is complex, but look at all those countries who have a special "talent" for degrading women. Such countries would be e.g. the so called muslim countries during their times of religious rule (mostly present), and also many so called eastern european countries as well as Russia. In these former soviet countries (just to give them a label, right or wrong) prostitution has been rampant even at a common daily level. Prostitution is often seen as something normal in society. Women in general are seen as property, especially of sexual nature. All these countries are not known for their success or wellfare... rather to the contrary. So, in my simple mind, degrading and institutionalized lack of respect for women is closely connected to a society in bad shape. Of course, things are complex and there are so many variables and factors, but I certainly don't think a society can flourish at the same time it is degrading women.
Just some of my observations and thoughts.
Peace! -
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...It was a post about women being equal to featherless roosters for not covering their hair.
...They gave reasons that lollipops must be covered or they will be spoiled.
...Extreme types of Sectarian "Muslims" love saying that women are like jewels to justify their obligation of veiling for women.People really expose themselves when they use such imagery. Either it is insulting in a ridiculing way, or in a "sweet" way. It is traditional Islam's favourite hobby to portray themselves as the world champion of women's rights and women protection and respect of women. It's BS, and I'm also sick of the lollipop/pearl/rose imagery. It's just clever rhetoric to fool the audience and justify the disease. And what's worse is that many women are into it... amazing.
Peace