Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

[Tigress]

Im sure this has been asked before but I have not seen it yet..but I always wonder if we were with God before we were born, how come we don't remember anything? How come the earliest memories most of us have of existing are from random, scattered projections from our childhood. I remember reading somewhere that the infant/toddler mind is the most receptive to our environment and to God because our subconscious hasn't been crowded with junk and schematics to tell us how to think, and what to believe. So then why can't we remember infancy? Why does it seem like we grow farther away from our true nature the older we get, and our subconscious is harder to access (even if we weren't engulfed by sin and the evil things in this world)? I always associate dying and ceasing to exist with deep darkness, and no sound at all like you are in a vacuum in space. Even though I believe in Heaven and Hell, logically I feel as if death is followed by the same nothingness that comes to mind when I try to recall my early existence. To try to envision myself as "spirit/energy" without my body seems too...cartoonish to me. I feel like it must be something unimaginable. Maybe that is way God left us with no recollection or perception of ourselves before our births.

Just some thoughts...

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace be with thee Tigress,

It is interesting to think what we were before we were born into this world. It depends on what we believe. My interpretation of the Quran is that we are fresh souls assigned to our bodies and that they are thus new and it was just our ancestors Adam and Eve who were actually "blown into existence". Our soul is a copy of this "layout", but with individual traits and originality.

To elaborate more theoretically and hypothetically I believe we have a positive part of our soul which is God's qualities (which we can choose to use with our so-called 'free will&#039 and a negative part which is Shaytaan's qualities, the Jinn part of soul. The thing, which I deem complicated, is that if you with your free will decide to follow God then your positive born "split personality" will dominate and you are a good person. It does not mean automatically that you are destined for Heaven as that requires belief in God and the requital as well as goodness, but it is at least one of the criteria.

On the other hand, if you choose to let the evil part of your brain/soul dominate then you have problems making righteous decisions and let "the whispers of Shaytaan" affect you much. Since you are born with a copy of Shaytaan's traits this is possible.

I may not be right, but these are my crazy thoughts.

God bless you

[good_logic]

Peace Man of faith, Tigress, all.

"I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society
.

This event must be something that happened before the creation of our universe?

God said
Did I not covenant with you, O Children of Adam, that you shall not serve/worship the devil? That he is your most ardent enemy?

When did He do that?

And;

Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent

The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.

Also,
Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."

When?

Finally
We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.

Recall that we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused.

I believe we existed before this physical creation that we are in now.God ,out of mercy, is giving us a chance to redeem ourselves back to His kingdom. We committed the original sin--sided with Iblis-This life is the trial
Contrary to common belief, the "Original Sin" was not Adam's violation of God's law when he ate from the forbidden tree. The original sin was our failure to uphold God's absolute authority during the Great Feud. If the human person convinces his or her jinn companion to denounce that original sin, and uphold God's absolute authority, both creatures are redeemed to God's eternal kingdom on the Day of Judgement. But if the jinn companion convinces the human being to uphold Satan's idolatrous views, then both creatures are exiled forever from God's kingdom.

The companion said, "Here is my formidable testimony"

Peace to all.

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

Thanks for your valuable input, good logic.

God bless you

[Zulf]

Peace Good Logic,

Yes, I agree with this understanding. This is how I see things too.

At first I was thinking that the christian Orginial Sin was something perverted negative... and nonsensical. Now I see it that it is probably just misunderstood and mutated, like so many other things. What I could never digest was the idea that we inherit sin from the those who committed the sin in the first place. It is as perverted as believing that God would punish and kill his own innocent son to save humanity (some of them at least). That's not love; that's unfair and illogical. In any case, now I see it that Original Sin is that thing, that rebellion, that rejection, by us, that caused us to turn away from truth and reality, and thus become blind and find ourselves in darkness, turned away from God and truth.

Our only mission on this Earth in this life is to redeem ourselves back towards God, truth, reality and the light. It has nothing to do with what God likes or wants, as atheists think it is all about. We are getting a chance to come back home, and this life is designed for that purpose. God's mercy is everywhere... but it is we who decide in what direction to go. Life is also beyond our comprehension and understanding, so we should be very careful not to jump to conclusions about God and life when we see misery, unfairness, filth, evil, sorrow and disaster. God knows what we don't know. We should not think so much. We should focus on doing good things, life-promoting things, progressive things.... good deeds.

I'm also amazed at the Great Impostor Morpheus... our most ardent enemy.... the Evil that constantly changes shapes and shows up in all sorts of guises, pretending to be good, but spreading disharmony, disunity, suspicion and fear. It doesn't matter WHAT this evil/devil is, as that is irrelevant. We can recognize evil by it's fruits, if we are honest. That's all we need. Evil will always be exposed, and it can never hide behind excuses. Fruits are fruits. It's time we stop associating things with God, things like messengers and tribes. And it's time we stop associating things with the Devil (whatever that is)... things like other nations, other religions, other cultures, human beings. God is too close to us for us to recognize.... and evil is too close to us to recognize in ourselves and our immediate surrounding. We look out there, far off, at others. This is why no-one will be prophet in their home town. We are only comfortable with things that are enough distant to us. We have no issues believing things, as long as they are not too real an close.
Evil is always the Other, not us. Miracles (outrageous nonsense) always happened thousands of years ago, not now. God is up There, not here. We will be judged Then, not now continuously. This is how we think and behave... unfortunately. The signature characteristic of the human being is Separation, in every sense.

Peace y'all!

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

There is some gaps between the sessions where I write on this thread but it is far from abandoned by me. I just realized myself how much my sequential illustration of how the complete procedure of faith is constructed goes hand in hand with the main spiritual criteria of Qur'an. I discovered this when writing on another thread. If we take a look at my usual rambling about "Islam's" criteria (all over forum);

1. Belief in God
2. Realm
3. Righteousness

; we can clearly see that Nearness and Guidance belongs to criterion 1, Knowledge and Wisdom to 2 and Peace and Prosperity to 3. It was an interesting self-observation that I did and I had not even considered that when I first wrote the illustration.

And as I said on that thread (which I unfortunately forgot the name of) with my personal story about my coming to God and Islam I went through the criteria in an orderly manner from 1 to 3. This was never anything I had anticipated and all praise is to God alone.

Continuation Knowledge and Wisdom part 1

I never really continued with "Knowledge and Wisdom", but now we can say it means reassurance about the Truth of the Messengers of old and being able to use and understand the moral stories associated with them in a wise manner. This is what the category Knowledge and Wisdom really means. It may also reflect the common and often recurring expression from the Qur'an where known people say "I know from God what you do not know". When you have Nearness and Guidance (criteria 1) and then build up Knowledge and Wisdom (criteria 2) and become strong on these parts together with Peace and Prosperity (criteria 3) then you may reach the know from God what others do not know. If you study Qur'an and simply are reassured that it speaks of a certain thing that is according to the Truth then this expression is rendered true, automatically, as you know from God what other people have either failed to realize or completely missed. It does not guarantee that people will believe you when you utter the Truth that you got to know, but you utter the Truth nevertheless.

The reason Knowledge and Wisdom goes hand in hand is because Knowledge is the physical attribute while Wisdom is the ability to utilize the acquired Knowledge. Knowledge in God's Realm is basically knowing the (true) Message while being able to filter out the falsehood. It is a constant process and I suppose most people will never know everything about the Message and you can know various quantities. When someone knows Knowledge that someone else does not you qualify for the expression "I know from God that you do not". Wisdom is an accompanied attribute and is raised at practically the same "speed" as Knowledge and is the ability to judge more according to God's will the stronger this attribute is and taking one's Knowledge into account.

What you usually know as a "blessed man" is a person who has reached relatively far on the Knowledge and Wisdom category and knows much that other people are ignorant of and maybe even reject even if the blessed man is trustworthy. Blessed men are not always being listened to and may be mocked and ridiculed for their information even if it is the Truth. Just look at the Messengers of old, were they not mocked and ridiculed? Messengers are blessed men that have excelled in their rank and obtained Messenger status, of course all according to God's will and some of them are less willing to complete their "job" than others, see Jonah/Yunus for example, so it suggests Messengers are not even close to being perfect Believers but are in varying degrees and we should make no distinction between them but rather heed their Message and purify ourselves and form our own identities because the group of people that is admitted into Heaven is relatively small and there is no time to copycat and imitate Messengers in risk of committing idolatry. Follow in their footsteps is okay and it is their positive attributes which you ought to follow and not the pride of Muhammad, unwillingness to obey of Jonah or the aggression of Moses, for example.

They are all signs for mankind as well as deliverers of the Message (the Realm) and they show the disbelievers that they have something to fear, but they seldom take heed and are just confused and say that they are just tales of the past.

And then there are the hypocrites that lead many people astray just by pathetically preaching their (false) religion. They say that Jesus is the son of God while God has never said such a thing, and they love their Messengers as lords and as God should be loved. And they invent strange rituals and practices making God look like a tyrant or twist the Message with their tongues. These are the true stray people and your worst enemies, o fellow brothers and sister.

Strengthen your Faith, o fellow Believers and increase your Knowledge and Wisdom that you may save yourself and perhaps even a few friends from the Hellfire. Become blessed men and fulfill the three criteria of God's creed

1. Belief in God
2. Realm
3. Righteousness

God bless you

ps. Where all that came from I do not know, I felt in trance sun

[Man_of_Faith]

Continuation Knowledge and Wisdom part 2

In the last part of this categorical discussion I drew parallels between the main salvation criteria and my illustration model, and after I had posted it I realized I had not explained it enough, so I felt that I had to complement it with a part 2. With my previous post it seemed like one has to be deeply rooted in Knowledge and Wisdom to stand a chance of salvation, although this should not be necessary and is a flaw with my illustration for this purpose. I wanted to connect "God's Realm" with Knowledge and Wisdom as they are related to each other, but I did not want to make it seem like you need to be very knowledgeable to be forgiven.

By believing in the Realm of God means believing in God's plot, i.e. the Messengers and what God has narrated in Qur'an. It does not mean believing in everything we hear and interpret by reading, but we ought to believe that God sent Messengers to the face of the Earth that preached the Message. As you already know the fundamental parts of the Message are the criteria I so often mention about, so Knowledge and Wisdom is rightly connected to criteria 2 in ways. However, additional Knowledge can be knowing the exact Truth about some Messenger or the Wisdom might cause you to properly understand the moral lesson of a narration of Qur'an and this is a bonus of this extension of the blessings from God.

So by believing in the Message and primarily the three criteria ought to be enough for salvation and if you believe the Message you sort of automatically confirm that you believe in the Messengers and the Angels/Controllers. God's Message is actually pretty simple and most of Qur'an is only to convince people that God is really real and act as a guidebook for those who are convinced, and confuse the hypocrites.

Not knowing the exact Truth cannot mean that you are doomed to Hell as long as you had good intentions and did not engage in idolatry.

In conclusion; determination on the main principle of God's creed ought to be enough for salvation on parameter 2, meaning one-third (33%) is fulfilled by believing in this. Together with strong Faith (Iman) and particularly righteousness this is a winning concept, for with righteousness Faith will also skyrocket. It is difficult to use these arguments to say that a person qualifies for Heaven though as the true judgment by God will be made based on evil or negative deeds versus righteous deeds, plus taking the fulfillment of the main criteria into account. So fact is that Criteria number 3 is obviously something we actually need to put more focus on as the judgement will be highly based on it. This is something I try to make clear in all threads where I nag about good deeds and I am afraid that a lot of people miss this fact despite that it is very clear in Qur'an.

By very sterile logic I can put up a hypothesis 50% of chance of salvation is based on the deeds and 50% is based on the Faith in God and the Realm. You clearly see that a poor attitude, arrogance and ego-centrism will bring an obvious disadvantage for the Muslim even if the person may max out Criteria 2, i.e. very good Knowledge of the Realm.

And with insufficient goodness from the Muslim's part will cause Faith to falter or not grow and the whole chain will weaken.

Question on the Topic for Readers

I have a question for those who read this thread

I am curious whether someone had a different experience than I had of the coming to God, and by that I mean whether you came to the creed through the chain I have suggested, i.e. you started to seek His Nearness and Guidance, then built up Knowledge and Wisdom and first after that you begun to realize you had to work harder on being righteous (the Purification), or was it another way around by always done a lot to be a good person and purify yourself?

My model is constructed around a chain where you first need to come closer to God by seeking His Nearness and Guidance before you He will bestow any serious Knowledge and Wisdom in you. Real Peace and Prosperity also known as Righteousness will only come after you have the first parameters. Of course the Peace and Prosperity is a reward for the actual Righteousness, but according to my model one will not manage to be truly Righteous first after being within the proximity of God and possessing at least some Knowledge and Wisdom.

We need to remember that some sectarian Muslims are outwardly Righteous in charity and things but they are not doing it with their heart and beneath the surface is a plain ego, because they seem to lack the first parameters. The optimal charity is given out of love for your fellow humans without an expectation of any personal gain and for the being good itself and not only to satisfy a personal self-conscience or fear of God.

Thus my theory is based on that no Righteousness is accomplished unless you have strong Faith in God and His Realm. The Purification does not mean instantaneous Righteousness. If you do not know how to do it right God will not show the right Righteousness so to say, for example, when you have idols such as Muhammad or Ali, then God will prevent you from seeing clearly as to the creed (Realm) and Criteria 2 will not be reached. And as we know if you listen to the majority of people they will lead you astray, so one must use their intelligence and only listen to the relevant which can come from any anonymous blessed man among the people, or from the scriptures particularly Qur'an. "Follow the best and ignore the rest".

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

I composed a diagram so that you can more easily see the point I try to reach in this thread. It is still a pretty rough illustration, but the concept is clear. As you can see, Islam consists of all these parameters which I separated into Faith and Actions within the creed Islam. The illustration is as you see no chain and I will try to compose such a chain as well and the intention with this diagram was to enable the readers to see the elements involved in a graphical presentation. On the other hand, all the pieces of the cake form a chain so one cannot leave out any piece without breaking the chain which makes a Believer (Mu'meen), but as long as a person at least tries to follow at least one of the parameters he can be considered Muslim, because a Muslim works towards Islam, the condition not completely unlike Nirvana in Buddhism.

Like you saw earlier, I personally came to Islam through Nearness and Guidance first and after that Knowledge and Wisdom and lastly I begun with a true aim towards Peace and Prosperity. But I wonder if this chain of events is a standard and everyone get to Islam this way. Like I said before, one does not have to max out Nearness and Guidance to achieve some Knowledge and Wisdom etc, but it is kind of a prerequisite to at least being slightly mindful of God.

Circle diagram presenting a graphical illustration of the creed Islam

http//farm6.staticflickr.com/5546/10816793444_18c10caea7.jpg

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Muslim - Who is Muslim?

So we must kill the myth of who is Muslim and what being Muslim is and what Islam is. Why there is such a big misconception about this subject is because it is slightly complicated and due to our egos, but after this off-topic post it will become clear to everyone. The goal everyone who is a monotheist works towards is Islam and the person in progress is a Muslim because he wants to reach the condition Islam through the illustration in the previous post. When a Muslim has all criteria fulfilled and no doubts through strong Faith and Righteous deeds, then he is a Believer per God's definition "Mu'meen" which works pretty much like with the term 'Muslim' gives a status with the attribute Iman which cannot completely accurately be translated into Faith but is a very special characteristic in God's creed.

Iman, or simply Faith, is a value which can vary and is not fixed and suddenly flush into your mind but is something which has to be grown for you through all the before-mentioned criteria together. Even a Mu'meen is a Muslim all through his/her life, but the Mu'meen can be seen as a special tag for this Muslim that they are on the path of Faith. We might consider a Mu'meen to be a blessed person, who has all three parameters of my model fulfilled and is blessed plentifully by the Lord, but most importantly a Mu'meen does not have any doubt whatsoever about God, not the slightest doubt, so the circle is complete and the person only needs to work towards the perfect level of Iman. If my Knowledge increases about Iman I may be able to elaborate on this later, but for now I can only say that this is an opener when the person loses all doubt about God and his Realm.

Islam is not the name of a traditional religion, at best it is God's religion without any particular label, but is a description of the certain mindset of a person. A determination to first of all seek God's Nearness and Guidance, even without belonging to any group such as "Islam" or Christianity per traditional views, will make you a Muslim and not by going to the local mosque, uttering a shahada and expressing "Now I am a Muslim!". Supposedly a person who contemplates existence and realizes that there has to be a Creator and thus starts to do something about it for the benefit of their very soul is a Muslim.

A Muslim can be naive due to ignorance and might not have Knowledge and Wisdom, but Faithfulness will, as said before, lead you further. Obviously, evil behavior and deeds will be counterproductive, but persistent determination that there is a One God and purification of the soul will turn the individual towards the Light. God knows the expression "Rome was not built overnight" and will be patient with you if you are patiently steadfast with determination to become better and purify yourself through mindfulness of Him and good behavior. Idolatry and dependance on religious sources without involving the brain God bestowed upon us is a dangerous combination.

Faith + Action = True

My expression "Man cannot live by words alone, but must show it through his actions"

God bless you

[muslims]

Salam

I believe both are protected and beyond human reach, unless and until they are free from Shirk.

Knowledge

Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an
In a protected Book
None can grasp it <- not for human to decide, never.
except those purified (from Shirk)
(5677-79)

Wisdom

He grants wisdom to whom He pleases <- not for human to decide, never.
and whoever is granted wisdom
he indeed is given a great good
and none but men of understanding mind
(2269)

Condition to benefit from the Qur'an

This is the Book
about which there is no doubt
a guidance for
those conscious of Allah <- conditions
(22)

Peace all

[Man_of_Faith]

Salam

I believe both are protected and beyond human reach, unless and until they are free from Shirk.

Knowledge

Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an
In a protected Book
None can grasp it <- not for human to decide, never.
except those purified (from Shirk)
(5677-79)

Wisdom

He grants wisdom to whom He pleases <- not for human to decide, never.
and whoever is granted wisdom
he indeed is given a great good
and none but men of understanding mind
(2269)

Thanks for your input. That is true and it is basically what this thread is trying to prove. Without Nearness and Guidance (and the involved Purification) one will not receive Knowledge and Wisdom through God opening your eyes and will be astray and devoid of the true Message. Trying to trod unto conjecture through not focusing on Nearness and Guidance by "cheating" towards Knowledge and Wisdom will only lead to the typical show of sectarians and Mullahs who look like they know a lot while they actually know almost nothing, particularly because they continue to adhere to associating partners with God and idolize Messengers, Prophets and others, and listening to false sources without wholeheartedly seeking God's Nearness and Guidance. And they are not using their brains. God will make it feel to them like they are right while they are wrong and they will say in the courtroom of God "But we believed!?" while in fact they did not fulfill the circle of criteria as seen previously.

[muslims]

because they continue to adhere to associating partners with God and idolize Messengers, Prophets and others, and listening to false sources without wholeheartedly seeking God's Nearness and Guidance. And they are not using their brains. God will make it feel to them like they are right while they are wrong and they will say in the courtroom of God "But we believed!?" while in fact they did not fulfill the circle of criteria as seen previously.

Salam

Perfect peace

Say Shall We inform you of the greatest losers in (their) deeds?

(These are) they
whose labor
is lost
in this world's life
and they think
that they are well versed
in skill of the work of hands <- righteous peoples, good peoples

These are they
who disbelieve <- but they disbelieve, all or any part of the Qur'an
in the communications
of their Lord and His meeting

so their deeds
become null
and therefore
We will not set up a balance for them
on the day of resurrection

Thus it is that their recompense is hell
because they disbelieved
and held My communications and My messengers in mockery
(18103-106)

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

I interpret ayat in that verse you talk about as signs and not the actual literal passages. Not exactly the same interpretation we have.

If you do not believe the signs which make you determined that God exist and that you will stand trial in front of God you will be among the losers because the whole chain of what is in the creed Islam is never fulfilled. It is not Qur'an exclusively that is required but Faith in God and the Last Day, Realm or his Message which has been the same all the time. If you fail to acknowledge God and His Message your deeds, no matter good or bad, seems to not mean anything at all on the Judgment Day and you have failed on Criteria 1 and 2 but fulfilled 3 which mean nothing anyway. We need to remember it has been Islam at least from the time of Abraham and he did not have any access to Qur'an but he discovered about God and thus he came to know that he would stand trial.

The whole test seems to be to become determined that God exists and is your Master, you will be responsible for your deeds and judged and the ayat we discuss say that you fail to discover about God then all you did will be completely meaningless in the courtroom of God. It is like discovering a hidden treasure only knowing some hints and if you fail before time is up it is game over, forever. Most people want to know why we are here and the answer is right in front of their very eyes and yet they fail to see that it is because of God.

And there are people who say they believe but are spreading mischief across the land and they obviously do not believe as they would know their behavior will lead to that they chain will not be fulfilled and they probably failed on all parameters even if they thought they believed.

Anyway, Qur'an is a perfect guidebook and it is wise to follow it to the best of one's capability. This book will lead one towards God if you seek His Nearness and Guidance as well as protection from the Evil One and his followers.

Our difference in interpretation of the verse do not really change much except placing a fixation on the Book instead of the Message, in my opinion. Still nothing to argue about as long as we follow the Message, and the Book and seek a close proximity to God. The Judgment God is responsible for and we should do our best according to our minds and ability to see reason.

God bless you

[muslims]

I interpret ayat in that verse you talk about as signs and not the actual literal passages. Not exactly the same interpretation we have.

If you do not believe the signs which make you determined that God exist and that you will stand trial in front of God you will be among the losers because the whole chain of what is in the creed Islam is never fulfilled. It is not Qur'an exclusively that is required but Faith in God and the Last Day, Realm or his Message which has been the same all the time. If you fail to acknowledge God and His Message your deeds, no matter good or bad, seems to not mean anything at all on the Judgment Day and you have failed on Criteria 1 and 2 but fulfilled 3 which mean nothing anyway. We need to remember it has been Islam at least from the time of Abraham and he did not have any access to Qur'an but he discovered about God and thus he came to know that he would stand trial.

Salam

If you wish, there is nothing wrong to interpret it as "signs" and if one reading the whole Qur'an, the word must refer to "Ayat" or "actual literal passages" and it can be "proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations etc". If it is to be treated as "signs", then it is signs specifically mentioned by Allah in the Qur'an. This is the "main premises" from the Qur'an and the basis that Allah wants human to start their comparison or reasoning and learn from. Therefore, it is the "actual literal passages", and then expand from there, from the "Muhkamat" and not the "Mutasyaabihat" (Allah's trap) (37) (1039).

This is so since everything must start from the Qur'an (constitution) and the meaning expands from the Qur'an according to the types of ayat and its "priority (awwaliyah)". That is why we must first "Islam" (submission) to the Qur'an, yet, faith is still not in our heart. It is Allah who will insert faith in our heart, based on level of our submission to the ayat in the Qur'an (just). Therefore, faith or believe or not believe, is something not for human to decides and therefore, it is the Qur'an exclusively that is required; ie. Submission (Islam).

The bedouins say, "We have believed."

Say, "You have not believed
but say, 'We have submitted,' <- Islam
for faith has not yet entered your hearts. <- no faith, faith is equal to "monkey love"

And if you obey Allah and His Messenger <- Islam, vs. disobedience, all or any part of the Qur'an
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything <- see below
"NOT DEPRIVE OF ANYTHING" means does not require "FAITH". In fact, does not even have to believe in Allah existence!
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." <- as long we submit, Allah is forgiving, even if we have 0% faith

The believers are only the ones
who have believed in Allah and His Messenger
and then doubt not
but strive with their properties and their lives
in the cause of Allah
It is those who are the truthful.

Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion
while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth
and Allah is Knowing of all things?"

They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam

Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me.
Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you
that He has guided you to the faith <- it is Allah who will give us faith, not human
if you should be truthful." and based on our ability to "obey" to simple rules; ie. Islam
(4914-17)

Therefore, the focus for our salvation is not relating to "what we believe or not believe", BUT what we "obey or disobey". This means it is the Qur'an exclusively that is required, ie. "actual literal passages" and observation on the "DO NOT" prohibition (method, refer here). What we believe is the bonus to our salvation.

It is not Qur'an exclusively that is required but Faith in God and the Last Day, Realm or his Message which has been the same all the time. If you fail to acknowledge God and His Message your deeds, no matter good or bad, seems to not mean anything at all on the Judgment Day and you have failed on Criteria 1 and 2 but fulfilled 3 which mean nothing anyway. We need to remember it has been Islam at least from the time of Abraham and he did not have any access to Qur'an but he discovered about God and thus he came to know that he would stand trial.

Since the day the Qur'an has been perfected, it is Qur'an exclusively that is required and submission without faith is sufficiently enough for one to enter Paradise. Allah does not require faith for one to be in paradise. The minimum requirements is Islam (submission) and they will be the companions of the right, even with 0% faith or not sincere, and as long they obey 100%, from level of his understanding. Those who fail are the one who denies all or any part of the Qur'an, those who ignore the word "DO NOT" in the Qur'an, even 1%. They are companions of the left. The highest achievements are "faith" without doubts and no grieve, while live in the cause of Allah and obeying all rules in the Qur'an. Therefore, we don't need to fulfill all the criteria or complete the circle to enter the Paradise.

And you become three kinds

(1) Then the companions of the right <- based on submission (Islam), even 0% faith
what are the companions of the right? <- not yet certain to be in Paradise, may also be in the Fire

(2) And the companions of the left <- deny all or any part of the "DO NOT" prohibition, even 1% - borderline
what are the companions of the left? <- certainly to be in the Fire, the transgressors

(3) And the forerunners, the forerunners <- based on submission, and level of faith (complete circle?)
Those are the ones brought near <- certainly to be in Paradise
In the Gardens of Pleasure
A company of the former peoples
And a few of the later peoples <- Why? Refer here
(567-14)

There is not upon the doers of good any cause <- Islam, submission
(991)

Allah does not charge a soul
except its capacity <- Islam, submission, even with 0% faith
(2286) and, capacity is referring to"signs" or clear and "actual literal passages"?

These were my views. Allah knows best.

Peace

[muslims]

continue

---

He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything <- see below
"NOT DEPRIVE OF ANYTHING" means does not require "FAITH". In fact, does not even have to believe in Allah existence!
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." <- as long we submit, Allah is forgiving, even if we have 0% faith

Further, it is may become big mistakes or errors not to believe in Allah existence and merely obey what is in the Qur'an
but that is not the issue since Allah says, "Allah is Forgiving and Merciful"
and the term "Allah" itself is the "Mutasyaabihaat" which no human beings are able to control how to believe in Allah. (sura al-ikhlas)
Therefore, it is Allah who will "guided us to faith" in His existence
based on the level of our submission on all the "clear" rules from the Qur'an
and surely, "Allah will not charge a soul except with that within its capacity "; ie. our faith, believe or not to believe in Allah

Therefore, "obedience" to the rules in the Qur'an is the most important things for our salvation.
ie. the "actual literal passages", the Muhkamat, and not the Mutasyaabihaat.
our "faith" is totally dependant on our level of submission to the Qur'an
and the terms "Muslims"
do not necessarily mean the so-called "Muslims" in today's world definition
ie. the sectarian definition of Muslim

"We hear and we obey"
(2285)

And remember the favor of Allah upon you
and His covenant <- Islam is a contract to obey
with which He bound <- Qur'an is the terms and conditions of contract
you when you said,
"We hear and we obey" <- Never ever breach your contract!
and fear Allah
Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts
(57)

These were my views, the non sectarian or non religious views. Allah knows best.

Peace all

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

I do not agree with this but we can agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

[muslims]

Salam

These are only my views and you don't have to agree. I agree to disagree. handshake

Peace.

[Lena]

Peace Man of Faith and Muslims I have really enjoyed reading your posts. I believe in God 100%, believe in the angels, the Judgement Day and make an effort to regularly do righteous deeds for others but no matter how hard I try to be 100% obedient to God's message, I continue to committ sins. There are times when I am really exhausted from the struggle against the sinful part of my nature. Especially when I am physically or mentally tired and in a weak spiritual state, I fall down under Satan's influence. I place my trust in God, pray that I will be protected against Satan, go for a few years on the straight path feeling spiritually at peace, then wham!! Satan fells me with a knock out blow when I least expect it. Sometimes I can quickly pick my self back up, repent and ask God's forgiveness, with a renewed committment to obey God. Sometimes it takes me a longer time to find my way back to the straight path and I need the support of righteous non judgemental people.

So I have some questions - how can we be 100% obedient at all times in our life when we are only human? Perfection is a quality of divinity not of human kind. Isn't it true we are all sinners? How do we attain that permanent state of spiritual peace when we are in an ongoing jihad with Satan until we die!! Are any of us so arrogant as to feel we have done enough to secure our place in heaven? Is there a spiritually mature Free Minds Muslima (female), who would like to be my mentor, confidante and support during the down times?

[muslims]

So I have some questions - how can we be 100% obedient at all times in our life when we are only human? Perfection is a quality of divinity not of human kind. Isn't it true we are all sinners? How do we attain that permanent state of spiritual peace when we are in an ongoing jihad with Satan until we die!!

Salam

Thank you and what you asked is too high, which many are not willing to pay for the price. Many are just "wishing" but not really serious about attaining it, or not serious enough.

However, I believe if it is "too perfect", then it is "too perfect".

What else should it be? ???

We are indeed, only human, and that's why we have Allah.

Further, it is the behaviour of a True Auliya... perfection, ie. optimizing good, bad, mistakes etc.

Therefore, we cannot be 100% obedient at all times in our life.

It is in fact the most irrelvant question since "obedient and perfection is a process". (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

It is only Allah that can make us perfect and be 100% obedient at all times in our life.

Allah has promised
those who have believed among you <- conditions, the process to believe?
and done righteous deeds <- justly balanced, understand and communicating with the Sunnatullah (IQRA)
that He will surely

(1) grant them succession upon the earth <- Khalifa, and of course, not like world leaders today
just as He granted it to those before them all or many of them are not known by the public, but in control

(2) and that He will surely
establish for them
their deen <- 100% obedience - perfection
which He has preferred for them

(3) and that He will surely <- no fear, or grieve - "attain that permanent state of spiritual peace"
substitute for them
after their fear, security

(4) they worship Me <- free from shirk of any kind, refer here - 1, 2, 3, and 4
not associating anything with Me

But whoever disbelieves after that
then those are the defiantly disobedient
(2455)

It is You we serve <- serve comes first, only then eligible to ask for help
and You we ask for help otherwise, logically, no help.
(15)

The Process

However, Allah cannot make you perfect if "you wants" to be perfect.

There is no such things as "I want".

It doesn't work that way.

It is always working in the opposite direction.

That is, you must "not be perfect" for "Allah to makes you perfect".

Therefore, there is no "I", "I want" or "I am", "I this..", "I that.." or even "I feel" .. too many "I's", and of course, not even "I" and "Paradise" or "Hell Fire". Allah is not our slave, we are .. and there is nothing in our ibada is for Allah, it is actually for ourselves, ie. solah, fasting, sadaqah, righteousness etc. It is the deen, our deen, not Allah, and for our benefits. Allah don't need our ibada etc.

Therefore, what is for Allah?

All that we do is for ourselves, and there is nothing for Allah.

Who is Lord?

Isn't He is the One who supposed to be our Lord?

This is the factor that determines the "attain that permanent state of spiritual peace", and it is in conflict with the Sunnatullah, ie. 1 & 1.

Since this is a complicated issue.. I just put in summary, something that you can get some idea on its process.

What does Allah want to see from us?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg338195#msg338195

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg339592#msg339592

What should we do?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg336189#msg336189

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg336800#msg336800

Okay, how? (Allah's standard)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg337102#msg337102

Why?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg335950#msg335950

Proof?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg335891#msg335891

Some example?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg336010#msg336010

Consequences

It is You we serve
and You we ask for help
(15)

And when your Lord proclaimed
'If you are grateful
I will surely increase you
(147)

Understand the Qur'an... which will bring us to 100% obedience.

This is the process for the "attain that permanent state of spiritual peace", but as I said, many not willing to pay for the price. Therefore, it is a very complicated question, because they are "unwilling" or just "wishing".

These were my views. Allah knows best.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam Lena,

Thanks for your positive criticism. I have tried to put all my thinking power into this topic and hopefully some inspiration from the One.

There is a simple answer to your question about sins and fact is that we are sinful by nature and also the pressure from Shaytaan in this world is immense. I will be completely honest with you; I also commit sins and I think most, if not all, of us commit sins, but an important thing is to be conscious about your sins and try to do something about them and purify yourself with God's help. With God's Nearness and Guidance we can minimize our sinful behavior although I doubt we can eliminate them altogether unless we "become a Jesus" who might have had a certain advantage over us. I do not know how "purified" a person can become though and I suspect you can reach pretty high levels where you have a very good control over your sins, but you still can probably not say that you have never sinned.

Muhammad, as according to Qur'an, seem to had come to Faith and was still warned for some obvious mistakes such as judging two men by their looks where an appealing man was preferred instead of a poor blind man or when he let his wives had him make an unwise decision. We are not invulnerable to sins even if we are Messengers.

Moses killed a man of the Egyptians because he wanted to protect one of his people without asking for what reason they fought and the next day the same man was engaged in a fight again, and consider that God even forgave manslaughter you shall know the mercy of the Lord. Moses was honest with himself and God and confessed that he had been subdued by the devil, and suddenly as he had this realization a man (as a blessing) came and warned him that Pharaoh's people were out to get him so he escape. You see, the lives of the Prophets and Messengers were filled by mistakes and probably not only those which were highlighted in Qur'an and previous scriptures, so do not you worry about your sins my friend Lena.

One of them even rebelled, Jonah (Yunus) he boarded a ship and disobeyed God because he was fed up with his "assignment" and then swallowed by a fish at sea but he repented and thus God showed him His immense mercy and Jonah could continue his assignment after being miraculously ejected from the sea-creature's belly and up on the seaside.

Noah tried to defend his disbelieving and disobedient son and was met pretty harshly by God's words (I felt God was really angry in this narration) and he repented to God and God was forgiving and let him off the ship in peace.

You see, dear sister Lena, that the Messengers could sin pretty badly and still be forgiven by God and even continue their Messengership because they were honest in their Faith and they repented wholeheartedly and perhaps did not think of the consequences of their actions at first such as when Moses killed the Egyptian, think of the feelings of the Egyptian's wife and family and their immense sorrow at the loss of their beloved despite being of the oppressing faction the Egyptian might have been innocent of blame and might have just been defending himself against the one of Moses' people, a case of assault.

There is a moral lesson for all the narrations God makes in Qur'an (and possible older scriptures if they are not lies) and one has to listen carefully to them and only the intelligent ones will understand them thoroughly. I must admit that I think expressions from the Bible's Gospel testaments are authentic and coming from a man of God for they are sure wise.

Please do not be afraid as long as you keep being mindful of God and working towards purification. Follow my advice with the circle of Faith or not, but keep God in mind at all times and seek to be a Righteous and pious Believer. Please seek God's Nearness and Guidance and you will, God willing, get Knowledge and Wisdom and in the end you will have Peace and Prosperity. Follow this advice and I can guarantee you in the Lord's name that this is what you shall get. Stay strong and keep being steadfast.

I am better now than I used to be and I praise God for that and that I have become closer to Him, but I suppose I have to work my whole life to become satisfied with the result. This is the result of my devotion to God and that I struggle hard to serve the Lord in every way I can even if I might not always please Him in my ignorance, but I have tried to be steadfast and I was determined that God would be real even if I had not yet Faith grown in my heart and eventually I reached a point where I realized I had not doubt whatsoever anymore. And the constant signs from God that I perceive reassures me further more and are perhaps a reward for being steadfast in Faith. No intention to brag, I just want to share that so someone can see how good the reward is for having believed and begun to receive Peace and Prosperity.

We are tested throughout our whole lives and when we have come to Faith we are tested in new ways and it can be applying the new Knowledge and Wisdom we have acquired in situations when others are preventing us from being righteous and then we need to deal with this too and it can be hard (from own experience) and we have to continue being steadfast even after Faith has come to our hearts and we (God willing) fulfill Islam's criteria.

It is this intention to purify yourself and become better which is most important and being kind and generous is a very good start to reach a good moral character. Qur'an is very thorough in telling the steps on how to better yourself and get rid of negative traits such as arrogance and selfishness. "Kill your ego" is a very good expression which signifies what has to be done in general. The optimal scenario would be that if we just gave away all our annual income and only lived moderately and spent much time helping others in various ways. Certainly those with big egos would exploit you, but I am sure that God would also help you and God said to the people to use their brains and be wise, in the end you would be able to see those who really need help against those who just want to be exploitative and hoard money fraudulently.

With big Faith you will likely be able to invoke God's wrath and be able to get people punished by those who exploited you and if not that God will take care of them in the end, you can rest assured. No reason to cry over spilled milk. Laughs best who laughs last. But best is to offer the other cheek if they hit you on one cheek, allegorically, and try to meet cruelness with kindness. It is hard, but yet the best solution. Revenge is never beneficial except for your ego. I recommend to try to meet evil with kindness, it is an interesting alternative and you might see perhaps unexpected results as in walking out as the winner in the end even if you were fooled and ill-treated at first in various ways. Jesus (allegedly) said "And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well" and it might not make sense from a first glance but if you consider it from different angles you might understand what is good with it. Evil and vice might impress you and seem an easy way to slide through a life, but it only leads to destruction and the person who follow God's guidelines in His Qur'an will see that the cheap material gains are not worth a penny compared to coming to Faith.

Are any of us so arrogant as to feel we have done enough to secure our place in heaven?

I do not want to call myself arrogant and I do not know my fate, but my mind is quite at peace about this and I do not worry much. I take the requital from the Lord and I am aware that for any bad I do I am responsible. No I do not know if I am destined for Heaven or Hell, but I am not afraid. Not sure if you can know subconsciously within your soul when you are ready, but I do not feel I am ready yet, I have lots to fulfill still. But no, it does not stress me much anymore except some people in my vicinity act as brake pedals unfortunately but my trust is in the Lord.

So I have some questions - how can we be 100% obedient at all times in our life when we are only human?

See the paragraphs above where I talk about the Messengers and Prophets.

God bless you and good luck on your journeys