Iblis and the metaphysics of free will and soteriology

Man_of_Faith

Peace drfazl,

Shaytaan is granted respite until the Judgment Day, for an unknown reason in my opinion, God could have removed him immediately when he trespassed his authority, but God consciously made the decision to keep him alive and let him carry out his desire to mislead those who he is able to mislead.

It is obvious Shaytaan is part of God's plan, as the ultimate enemy of the human soul. And the Truth is as he promises in the Quranic verses, he misleads the majority of humans and only those who choose to follow God decisively and devotedly are shielded against Shaytaan.

I suppose Eblees was of high rank in God's dominion and those who manages to pass this trial make take his place. Maybe even Eblees was a faction in His Kingdom and the humans will take its place and Shaytaan is furious about that and therefore he wants to claim as many vicitims as possible. Well, Shaytaan obviously thought he was powerful and he did not lose all his powers during his respite. He is a powerful opponent we should be very aware of. He is like aliens in sci-fi who have mind control and can even possess humans.

It is possible that when our test is over we get to replace Eblees' place in God's Kingdom and we are no longer as weak as we are now limited to our mortal bodies. This is probably why God put us on this trial to see which souls are fit for this seat. The ones who enter High Heaven (the elite) will most likely be highest in rank while those in Lower Heaven will be, although still powerful, lower in rank than the elites.

The ones who did not fulfill God's standards are confined to some nightmarish place referred to as Hell or Gehenna. They will live in some place with very poor living conditions and like prisoners. I think Hell is allegorical and now exactly as portrayed in Quran, but the feelings for its inhabitants will be like explained in it.

The exact result of God's ultimate trial we will soon be aware of. The test is short and then we will know if this I spoke of is just loose conjecture or if I was right. I based my logic and ideas and bit of philosophy on the Quranic narration and I did not intend to use my own imagination particularly much. That Shaytaan was thrown out from his place near God is certain, and we can infer through logic that God may replace him by something else. Since Shaytaan was doomed there may be a place open for someone else near the throne. I draw the conclusion that those who will be close to God per Quranic definition will have a substituted place instead of Shaytaan/Iblees near the throne. This annoys Shaytaan enormously and that is why he does his utmost to sabotage everything. Logic tells no one would be that full of revenge if not because something so humiliating as his place and authority was going to be replaced by by humans he despise so much. Possibly God had already thought about replacing Eblees when he told the angels to pay homage to Adam.

God was merciful to give the human race a second chance after the disobedience incident in the Garden when Shaytaan claimed his first victim after his pledge to claim as many human victims as possible.

But I am sure God already knew all which happened before it happened and it is all part of His plan.

We are on trial, like a video game with very dire consequences and Shaytaan is the main adversary in its plot. His soul is still active, but possibly he lacks a body. But since his consciousness is present in the trial he has power to pervert the game story. And he is not limited by a mortal body since he is, as drfazl said, already dead. He is like an added spirit living just because God wanted him to. If God's spirit is called the Holy Spirit Shaytaan works through a sort of devilish energy, perhaps part of our conscious mind.

God bless you

Paper_rain

Peace,

Hell is eternal according to Quran, Paper rain.

God bless you

I have read both that it is eternal (for non believers), and that it can be temporary for believers.

Can you provide proof from the Qur'an that it is always eternal for both believers and non-believers?

I saw this

http//islamqa.info/en/ref/22467

But that may be heresay, and perhaps it is not supported by the Qur'an. However, is it directly contradicted by the Qur'an in clear terms?

Thanks!

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

That Hell is not eternal is based on hearsay. I cannot link from Quran at the moment, but maybe another brother or sister can.

If you get your record in your left hand on the Judgment Day you will abide in Hell forever. There is no escape God says in the Quran.

God bless you

Paper_rain

Thanks,

Peace,

Will Commanding Authority of God
Free Will You can Free yourself from the Authority of God

Will Abide by the Will to be slave of God
Free Will Free from the Will, and become Aggressor against God.

As Man of Faith mentioned, that's not what "free will" means in metaphysical usage. I have not seen it used in this way.

Can you please provide evidence from the Qur'an for this interpretation? If this is true, I'm very interested in reading about that.

This would mean Allah would be responsible for the actions (as the creator of a being without free will) This statement has come out man's Free Will that does not fit the mention referring to God. God is Well-Aware, Knower.

This statement is logical deduction, from the former points, the concept of free will, and the nature of moral responsibility.

When one deliberately causes something, one is morally responsible for the results.
Allah deliberately causes all things that are not the result of free will (the only principle that gives others responsibility for their actions, and without which judgment would be meaningless)
If Iblis lacks free will, then Allah is responsible for Iblis' actions.
Iblis does evil.
Allah is incapable of evil.
Therefore, Allah can not be responsible for Iblis' actions.
Therefore (following from 3 and 7) Iblis must have free will.

Which part of this do you disagree with, and why? And can you provide sources from the Qur'an to back up that disagreement?

Thanks!

Unlike the other jinn and men who would die and then brought up alive again on the Last Day, shaitan was given life till the death of the worlds to lead a well-chosen life from his free-will, with only one Wilful Wish to go to Hell, taking along with him, all those who would worship only him as the God. Shaitan is dead already his free will is void; he is on an extended life span doomed till eternity.

You seem to contradict yourself. It can't be both ways.

Is Iblis dead or not dead? Does Iblis have free will, or not have free will?

These are quite important questions; I think they shouldn't be left unclear.
If you would, please see above where I outlined the logical process by which it should be determined with certainty that Iblis must have free will. Please let me know where you believe the problem in this argument to be.

Thank you!

Paper_rain

I'll just put the PM here then. I'm leaving it as it is because I'm not sure what I would add or take away.

These are just some considerations. If you disagree with anything, you are free to and God swt is the best Judge.

Thanks!

In terms of Iblis - it may be that in his mind, it is made up. He knows he will never wish to redeem himself because he knows the gravity of what he has done. He's in Heaven/Paradise, in the presence of God swt, he chooses to ignore a command from Allah swt directly... that's very different from us as humans here on planet earth. So this context is important. When we consider it, we may be able to understand that Iblis had his heart and mind set. It's done and final.

We may have our minds set on something, but we can always hear something new, or have an experience that touches our hearts- and even the darkest hearts and most stubborn minds can be touched- which changes how we see the world, and changes our minds. Isn't that what free will is all about? The ability to change your mind up until the time of finality.

Maybe it would seem unlikely that Iblis would change his mind and repent, because of the extreme situation, but because he has free will, it must still be possible for him to do it, right?

A bit like when it says that there are some (we don't know howm any, it could be few) that have their hearts sealed.

If they literally can not make a choice to redeem themselves, and are trapped, then that seems to be a problem in contrast to the mercy of Allah. How could they be punished if they can not choose?

I found three places which might suggest this.

26-7

210

217-18

541

625

1088

1797-98

1857

How are these to be translated correctly and interpreted?

Are there any others, as you mentioned?

Thanks so much!

supportpeacenotwar

No, I don't think it is possible to say that if someone has their heart sealed that this creates a problem with the issue of free will. I think you need to understand the concept of free will as contained in the Quran. There are always going to be parameters to what we can or can't do - free will doesn't mean we can do absolutely anything or everything.

For example, when Allah swt bestows the Quran upon Muhammad, He knows Muhammad will do the right thing because of Muhammad's character. Allah swt decrees that some hearts can be sealed, because they have utilised their free will in such a way - a way that we do not understand or know about.

It's actually very straightforward in my view. They aren't trapped, for example Pharoah's heart was not sealed - so to have your heart sealed it must be a specific scenario that only Allah swt truly knows. All you have to do is at least a little bit open to Allah/truth or the actual concept of our Creator in general. If Allah knows all things, then He knows whether with someone's free will, they will do good or evil or change their mind up to the point of finality. It's not hard to understand that. There could be certain scenarios - such as being in Paradise and being in the presence of God. There is a "balance" of sorts that has been totally tipped.

It actually seems like that was a situation like no other. You have to really go through each step of what happened to appreciate the end result. That's what I said in the first place and you haven't really addressed that in my opinion. I don't see why you want to discuss with me when THAT is what I want to discuss. So, there we have it - feels very unnecessary. Clearly my original input - I've had to reiterate it all over again so it didn't help. I feel the more we wind down this discussion the further will we move away from discussing the most central thing here what Iblis actually did, in that EXTREMELY PARTICULAR situation and the way we can never appreciate what Iblis had become - who would want to - and the extreme situations in which hearts are sealed.

This topic isn't actually as interesting as I thought, because to discuss it we have to be more open minded about the terminology and concepts in the Quran and how they fit together.

And I told you these were some ideas that need to be understood on their own grounds - in fact this is one the reasons I thought I'd just leave it in a PM because these things can get so lost and tangled in discussions like this, the points get missed a lot, I've found this on other threads. I feel like you want to put outside and normative ideas of free will onto the Quran. You can't do that. No-one really knows how 'free' free will actually is and I don't believe it means you can do anything and everything as much as you like. Clearly Allah swt decreed parameters, especially in relation to hearts being sealed - again as I already said - that are in His knowledge for only He can make that judgement and fathom that. A believer would trust in that and look at the WHOLE story to understand what they can of the situation. In fact, all Iblis needed to do was say leave my path open toward repentance. If you say he didn't do that because he's just evil at that time but will redeem himself later - thats the original point, Allah swt knows what Iblis wants to do with this will, what he has become, his entirety. Iblis actually asks Allah for respite until the last day, not sure of the verse numbers right now, so he can divert mankind and do real evil. This is actually very important, because Iblis actually knows his true dependency and relationship with his Lord and that he even needs his Lord's permissions but he has become a creature of complete arrogance, hate and evil. Iblis actually wants to go against everything Allah swt has stated even though he knows his every clear fact about Allah swt - if that is not an incredilbly unqiue situation, what is?

Allah swt grants Iblis repsite saying those who trust Allah swt will be protected, and that he has no power over those who wish to seek their Lord.

Again, from that we can see the WHOLE story needs to be taken into account.

unknownuser

Peace all.

Paper Rain, thanks for this thread, now I will suggest you some point before you further.

As Muslim, we know something about gaib or supernatural things is only based on Quran literal teks from Allah.
Supernatural things is beyond our limit

Some points you made especially 16-20 you made is only based on assumption and reasoning and it's no have Quranic evidences.

Human live in the different world from anykind of supernatural, gaib or metaphysic, because only Allah who know something like that and human have no knowledge about it beside only guessing.

5109 "..... ?We have no knowledge, you are the Knower of all the unseen (gaib).?

9105 ".....And you will be sent back to Knower of the unseen (gaib) and the seen,..."

2765 Say ?None in the heavens or the earth know the unseen (gaib) except God. And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected.?

And Prophet Muhammad himself has no knowledge about gaib or metaphysics things

650 Say, , "I do not tell you that I have the depositories of Allah or that I know the unseen (gaib),......"

7188 Say, "I hold not for myself benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen (gaib),...."

See Paper Rain.It's very clear if as Muslim we have no autharity to speak about gaib, and we only ordered by Allah to believe on it (see 23).So there is no point if we discussed about this again, because we only play guessing.

"While atheist confused and busy about their ghost research, we simply just worship Allah only"

Salam/Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

While what Earthdom said is partially true, God reveals pretty much Knowledge in His Quran about things. Quite generously in fact.

God's ulterior motives we know nothing about, but I do not fall on blind Faith. I have what I needed to know now though and I have (according to myself) strong Faith.

Quran tells us to put our Faith in the unseen, and it means why we need to believe in God despite not being able to see Him. God intentionally hides from being seen as it is meant as a test and if they knew about God then it would be cheating.

By logical deduction you can infer lots of information quite accurately despite not literally written out in Quran. And it is not conjecture since it is filling in the parts which are not word by word added to Quran and were not truly important for God to exist in Quran. It does not mean Quran lack details. Consider it paraphrasing and intelligent logical deduction from a source of information.

The Quran is perfectly detailed and lacks nothing we need to know. The aim here was to show that there is no end to the use of the words in Quran to extract information.

Yet I love this phrase many times spoken by blessed men in the past "I know from God something you do not know".

Unfortunately, Paper rain, it seems you have mixed hadith conjecture with the Truth. Hell is eternal, no one is going to save you from it if that is where your destiny lies. Being a believer does not make any difference if you are doomed to Hell. Quran even tells a story about people who brag that the Hell will not touch us for more than a few days.

God bless you

hawk99

Peace Family,

Hell appears to be eternal.

As for those who earned sins, their requital is equivalent to their sin. Humiliation
is their lot, and no one beside GOD can protect them. Their faces will seem overwhelmed
by masses of dark night. They will be the dwellers of Hell; they abide therein forever.

72/23 Sahih International But only notification from Allah ,
and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger -
then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.

Verse (493)
The analysis above refers to the 93rd verse of chapter 4 (srat l-nisa)

Sahih International But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense
is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and
has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

O0

Man_of_Faith

Peace brother hawk99,

Thank you for those verses. I think our new friend wanted some additional proof where mere words were not enough.

God bless you

Paper_rain

It's very clear if as Muslim we have no autharity to speak about gaib, and we only ordered by Allah to believe on it (see 23).So there is no point if we discussed about this again, because we only play guessing.

I don't agree.

Everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

Deduction is the opposite of guessing- it is taking something we assume to know (premise) like "the Qur'an is true" (this is like a 'guess&#039, but then following from that assumption we can use reason to deduce conclusions that must also be true (if the premise is true).

for example

Premise The Qur'an is true (this is a guess, because it's an assumption based on faith- you can't use reason to prove the)
Premise The Qur'an says Allah is merciful (this is an empirical claim, and we can provide evidence for this by opening the Qur'an and reading it, and quoting it, etc. We can't prove it 100%, but we can be 99.999% sure it says this)

Conclusion If those premises are true, then Allah is merciful.
This is not a guess- it is a deduction, which is conditional on the two premises (one is a 'guess' , the other can be evidenced empirically and is a matter of evidence)

I hope that helps to explain it.

You can see, all of my steps are listed out clearly. IF one of the premises I used is incorrect, then the conclusion may be incorrect. If there is a mistake (like I left out a possibility), then the conclusion might be incorrect.

If there premises are true and there is no mistake in the reasoning, then the conclusions must be true, and that's not a guess.

But, of course, I could have many mistakes, particularly in the premises, due to incomplete knowledge of Islam.

That's why I ask you to help show me which points are incorrect, why they are incorrect, and if you can, provide evidence from the Qur'an that they are incorrect.

"While atheist confused and busy about their ghost research, we simply just worship Allah only"

I don't know what you're talking about... sorry.

Paper_rain

Peace Family,

Hell appears to be eternal.

As for those who earned sins, their requital is equivalent to their sin. Humiliation
is their lot, and no one beside GOD can protect them. Their faces will seem overwhelmed
by masses of dark night. They will be the dwellers of Hell; they abide therein forever.

72/23 Sahih International But only notification from Allah ,
and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger -
then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.

Verse (493)
The analysis above refers to the 93rd verse of chapter 4 (srat l-nisa)

Sahih International But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense
is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and
has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

O0

Thank you Hawk99, I will read those verses carefully.

I have had a look.

What do you make of these

6128

11107

I have also read that many scholars believe that the word for 'eternity' just means a long time. Can you comment on the usage of the original Arabic?

unknownuser

I don't agree.

Everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

Deduction is the opposite of guessing- it is taking something we assume to know (premise) like "the Qur'an is true" (this is like a 'guess&#039, but then following from that assumption we can use reason to deduce conclusions that must also be true (if the premise is true).

for example

Premise The Qur'an is true (this is a guess, because it's an assumption based on faith- you can't use reason to prove the)
Premise The Qur'an says Allah is merciful (this is an empirical claim, and we can provide evidence for this by opening the Qur'an and reading it, and quoting it, etc. We can't prove it 100%, but we can be 99.999% sure it says this)

Conclusion If those premises are true, then Allah is merciful.
This is not a guess- it is a deduction, which is conditional on the two premises (one is a 'guess' , the other can be evidenced empirically and is a matter of evidence)

I hope that helps to explain it.

You can see, all of my steps are listed out clearly. IF one of the premises I used is incorrect, then the conclusion may be incorrect. If there is a mistake (like I left out a possibility), then the conclusion might be incorrect.

If there premises are true and there is no mistake in the reasoning, then the conclusions must be true, and that's not a guess.

But, of course, I could have many mistakes, particularly in the premises, due to incomplete knowledge of Islam.

That's why I ask you to help show me which points are incorrect, why they are incorrect, and if you can, provide evidence from the Qur'an that they are incorrect.

Peace Paper Rain

Thankyou for your premis or modus ponnen science, but didn't you know it's not the first time I get discussion with someone who just using premis logic, but actually they avoiding the fact.
Aristoteles,modus ponen, premis logic is Kafir innovation, this logic is only playing the words but avoiding the validation facts.

but I'm a Muslim and I believe if the Quran is not just a piece of papers but it's Allah's commandment, so if we disagree or not we must follow it.

Example is if Allah says "Only Me who knows about metaphysics/gaib" then we must believe this commandment and cannot be debate again.

everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

But "reason" by avoiding the legilimate verses in the Quran is null.Yes we understand Quran by brain, but Allah's commandment have more autharity then brain.

Thus Quran is different from Bible, I mean there is no perfect Quran translation in this world.So there is no Quran translations which capable 100% appoarching the real meaning of Quran's Arabic text.

Translation is a way to understanding Quran, not as equal of Quran's Arabic mushaf.

By saying this, it's pointless if you researching premises in the Quran just by using translations

GODsubmitter

I hope this topic isn't overdone, but I'm curious about this.

This is my basic understanding (please tell me if I am mistaken)

Iblis is Jinn
Jinn have free will
Therefore, Iblis has free will.
Without free will, a person would not be responsible for his or her actions
This would mean Allah would be responsible for the actions (as the creator of a being without free will)
Therefore, Angels' (or any other beings without free will, as such) actions are not their own responsibility, but the will and responsibility of Allah alone
Iblis does evil.
Allah is pure good, and thus can not be responsible for evil.
Following from 5 7 and 8, Allah can not be responsible for the actions of Iblis.
Therefore (confirming) Iblis must have free will (the curse Allah placed upon him could not remove his free will, as a special class of Jinn)
Allah has promised that all may be forgiven if true repentence is sought before death (that is, except dying in a state of disbelief).
Following from this promise, Iblis could be forgiven if he truly repented and turned back to Allah and away from his evil ways, returning to true belief.
Iblis is not dead, but was granted respite from judgement by Allah until the end times.
Following from Iblis' free will, and the above, Iblis is able to and could make the choice to repent to Allah, and be forgiven.

All of this seems fine until we arrive at the counter-point

Allah has decreed that Iblis will go to hell.

There are many potential contradictions and paradoxes created by this simple point.

Iblis must have free will, which means the possibility for him to repent must remain open (at least from his perspective). Telling him that he will not repent from a position of absolute knoweldge (knowing his own future), can do one of two things

A. It could destroy Iblis' free will (foreknowledge of his own future, committing him to it without choice). This, as per point #10 above, must be impossible.

B. Create a logical contradiction/paradoxical situation. Like traveling back in time and killing yourself. This is also impossible.

There is no other solution I can find to this.

IMPORTANT Keep in mind that it may be fine for Allah to know what somebody's future is, as long as he doesn't tell them their own future. If you understand something about quantum physics, you can view free will like a probability wave function.

The particle doesn't have an exact position and velocity until you measure it (which can be compared to free will). At the point of measuring it, the wave is collapsed (determined).

As long as Allah keeps his foreknowledge seperate from the universe, the free will does not have to collapse. But by telling somebody in certain terms what choice they will make, it must collapse the free will, or create an impossible paradox.

SO, here I come to some new points

In order to retain free will, Iblis can not be told what choices he will make in the future.
Iblis has access to the Quran.
Therefore, the part where Allah says that Iblis will go to hell must in some way have another interpretation, and not reveal Iblis' ultimate choice.
Following from points 14 and 15, if Iblis repents (as he must be permitted to do), he will be forgiven- but he will still go to hell even if he is forgiven.
The Quran provides some suggestion that (for believers) sometimes hell can be temporary.
Therefore, the only apparent conclusion is if Iblis repents, he may go to hell temporarily, thus satisfying Allah's proclamation that he will go to hell, as well as avoiding contradiction with Iblis' free will and Allah's promise of forgiveness.

Is there any support for this possibility in the Qur'an?

That is to say, Iblis has two options

A. Continue to do evil, and go to hell for eternity when he dies in disbelief.
B. Repent, and go to hell for a shorter time to pay for his sins, until Allah intercedes to save him.

But both options must remain open, and though Allah may know which Iblis will choose, he can not reveal that to Iblis (which means the Qur'an must not clearly reveal which will come to pass until it has already happened).

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

Hello @Paper rain!

Excellent post and thank you for it.

It is far from being long because it is very interesting to read!

I like the way the thoughts are unfolded in a very ordered and logical manner.
I wish there were more posts like that in this Forum.

I have nothing noticeable to add, and I have no valuable information to answer the questions raised.
I simply do not want to copy and paste Qur'an or write other citations, because I think everyone with the quest for more knowledge can to that for himself.

I simply think that the ultimate Truth is concealed from the humans for whatever reason, and while we are in this dimension on Earth, we shall never, ever have the ultimate answers, because it is meant to be that way, for whatever reason, and we're clueless about that reason. We can only speculate, of course...
Obviously there are "entities" which initiated, and created the Evil as well as the Good, and we simply have no clues about so many vital matters for our existence. We are still "eating" from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil", therefore transgressing the prohibition not to do it. But on the other side, without "eating" from it and thus developing our egos, we couldn't have even the remotest possibility for the way back to the Original Source, by using our Free Will given us as a gift for that purpose. And Iblees is certainly also the author and creator of the "interpretation" of most religions. Since the Original Source created everything and all, there must be, no matter how small, the part of It in us as well, and conscience and knowledge of that part is our best chance of a way back, finding that piece of God within us.

As I said beforehand, it is just my personal opinion formed with materials fed onto me by education, religious experiences and the rest, the same way it is done for all humans alike, always, all the time.

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honour and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man."

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 56
(translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

Man_of_Faith

Peace Earthdom,

I think you misunderstand Paper rain's point. Actually he is reasoning in good ways. And you say 'logic' is a man-made invention. Well it is just a term humans use to describe when we are rational and reasonable and has nothing to do with an atheist attitude. We have to use logic and rationality when we interpret the Quran or any other source of information, or we will go astray. God told us to use our brains.

Logic is the when you talk about making a choice with the highest probability, what makes most sense and is most reasonable.

Something illogical is contradicting itself, unreasonable and it would be irrational to make that choice.

I find nothing in Quran to be illogical, except a few things in the past which were cleared up such as polygamy and wife beating.

It is also not bad to search to come closer to the Truth by challenging one's belief. That is what the clergymen in the age of Jesus did wrong, their minds were completely made up. And it is why so many people are still stuck in sectarian Islam.

Paper rain is searching for the Truth for unknown reasons. Maybe he is a potential Believer but he is turned off by the religious dogma he is used to. If you attack him because he wants to use his brain and get logical answers he may be less likely to embrace this religion. That is the Sunni treatment.

I became a Believer entirely through logic when I turned to God. I thought about creation and I was never attracted by the traditional religions. If it was solely for them I would never be a Believer. Ironically it was Star Wars which first inspired me to think this way. I do not think of God as a grumpy old man with beard with a stone age book in His arsenal only.

My apologies for being harsh, but we must not make a typically zealous impression on our guest.

God bless you

Paper_rain

Hi Earthdom,

I'm afraid it isn't possible for me to disagree any more strongly than I do. I believe fully in using reason. I don't want to argue with you about it, so I'll just leave you with a quote

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

I think this really gets across the spirit of reason. Maybe we couldn't say if Allah exists or not for sure, but if he did, he must want us to use the minds he gave us, rather than disrespect his gift of logic and reason and disregard our capacity to learn and grow in this world.

I understand if we disagree, but hope you will think about it

Metaphysics is all about using reason to understand and learn more about religion and the transcendent, so if you don't agree with that, it's your choice, but I think that's a little off topic regarding what this post is about

I like the way the thoughts are unfolded in a very ordered and logical manner.
I wish there were more posts like that in this Forum.

Thank you.

I simply think that the ultimate Truth is concealed from the humans for whatever reason, and while we are in this dimension on Earth, we shall never, ever have the ultimate answers, because it is meant to be that way, for whatever reason, and we're clueless about that reason.

Have you ever read any H.P. Lovecraft? It's an interesting idea in some metaphysics (and Lovecraft wrote about it a lot), that the ultimate truth can lead the human mind to madness, because of its nature.
This concept is often repeated, and may provide some reason for that (or maybe not).

But at least we can use reason to speculate about some possibilities for immediate truth that we can access (even if we may never know the deepest motivations of the divine).

Obviously there are "entities" which initiated, and created the Evil as well as the Good, and we simply have no clues about so many vital matters for our existence. We are still "eating" from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil", therefore transgressing the prohibition not to do it. But on the other side, without "eating" from it and thus developing our egos, we couldn't have even the remotest possibility for the way back to the Original Source, by using our Free Will given us as a gift for that purpose. And Iblees is certainly also the author and creator of the "interpretation" of most religions. Since the Original Source created everything and all, there must be, no matter how small, the part of It in us as well, and conscience and knowledge of that part is our best chance of a way back, finding that piece of God within us.

Those are some really interesting ideas! Thank you for sharing. I will think about that.

Man_of_Faith

Peace Paper rain,

It is also a statement in Quran; God said "I gave you your brain, eyesight and hearing for a reason. Rarely are you appreciative".

God bless you

herbman

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

Salam and Peace,

Just to make it short

I like your reasoning but maybe you are mistaking already at the premises, what if your premises were just one hypothesis among others.

I mean you start puttint statements 1.,2.,3. etc but some of these statements can also be discussed and therefore will open more options to what you suggested.

I will start with this one for example, regarding the name IBLIS
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603137.msg287499#msg287499

peace

Paper_rain

Man of Faith,

Thanks, I really appreciated your post.

I like your reasoning but maybe you are mistaking already at the premises, what if your premises were just one hypothesis among others.

I mean you start puttint statements 1.,2.,3. etc but some of these statements can also be discussed and therefore will open more options to what you suggested.

Thank you.

Yes, that's what I said earlier. If somebody has some reason one of those premises are mistaken, or a different interpretation, I would love to hear it.

I have heard a little bit about the idea that Jinn are not supernatural beings, but instead emotional states within our own psyches. It's an interesting idea indeed!

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Paper rain and everyone,

I didn't mean to sound abrupt earlier. So apologies if I came across that way. It's just that I had a feeling what happened with my post may happen - the point about the whole situation that Iblis has started/was in would get lost, as I have seen many a time, and I believe that is very important. So I wanted to make it very very clear.

I think if the Quran says hearts can be sealed, this may be what happened to Iblis after all - I'm not sure if the Quran elaborates on this - it implies an important point about the nature and the way that WE use our free will. This is more about us/humans and jinn than it is about the concept of free will I believe. I'll leave it there.