Iblis and the metaphysics of free will and soteriology

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

While what Earthdom said is partially true, God reveals pretty much Knowledge in His Quran about things. Quite generously in fact.

God's ulterior motives we know nothing about, but I do not fall on blind Faith. I have what I needed to know now though and I have (according to myself) strong Faith.

Quran tells us to put our Faith in the unseen, and it means why we need to believe in God despite not being able to see Him. God intentionally hides from being seen as it is meant as a test and if they knew about God then it would be cheating.

By logical deduction you can infer lots of information quite accurately despite not literally written out in Quran. And it is not conjecture since it is filling in the parts which are not word by word added to Quran and were not truly important for God to exist in Quran. It does not mean Quran lack details. Consider it paraphrasing and intelligent logical deduction from a source of information.

The Quran is perfectly detailed and lacks nothing we need to know. The aim here was to show that there is no end to the use of the words in Quran to extract information.

Yet I love this phrase many times spoken by blessed men in the past "I know from God something you do not know".

Unfortunately, Paper rain, it seems you have mixed hadith conjecture with the Truth. Hell is eternal, no one is going to save you from it if that is where your destiny lies. Being a believer does not make any difference if you are doomed to Hell. Quran even tells a story about people who brag that the Hell will not touch us for more than a few days.

God bless you

hawk99

Peace Family,

Hell appears to be eternal.

As for those who earned sins, their requital is equivalent to their sin. Humiliation
is their lot, and no one beside GOD can protect them. Their faces will seem overwhelmed
by masses of dark night. They will be the dwellers of Hell; they abide therein forever.

72/23 Sahih International But only notification from Allah ,
and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger -
then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.

Verse (493)
The analysis above refers to the 93rd verse of chapter 4 (srat l-nisa)

Sahih International But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense
is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and
has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

O0

Man_of_Faith

Peace brother hawk99,

Thank you for those verses. I think our new friend wanted some additional proof where mere words were not enough.

God bless you

Paper_rain

It's very clear if as Muslim we have no autharity to speak about gaib, and we only ordered by Allah to believe on it (see 23).So there is no point if we discussed about this again, because we only play guessing.

I don't agree.

Everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

Deduction is the opposite of guessing- it is taking something we assume to know (premise) like "the Qur'an is true" (this is like a 'guess&#039, but then following from that assumption we can use reason to deduce conclusions that must also be true (if the premise is true).

for example

Premise The Qur'an is true (this is a guess, because it's an assumption based on faith- you can't use reason to prove the)
Premise The Qur'an says Allah is merciful (this is an empirical claim, and we can provide evidence for this by opening the Qur'an and reading it, and quoting it, etc. We can't prove it 100%, but we can be 99.999% sure it says this)

Conclusion If those premises are true, then Allah is merciful.
This is not a guess- it is a deduction, which is conditional on the two premises (one is a 'guess' , the other can be evidenced empirically and is a matter of evidence)

I hope that helps to explain it.

You can see, all of my steps are listed out clearly. IF one of the premises I used is incorrect, then the conclusion may be incorrect. If there is a mistake (like I left out a possibility), then the conclusion might be incorrect.

If there premises are true and there is no mistake in the reasoning, then the conclusions must be true, and that's not a guess.

But, of course, I could have many mistakes, particularly in the premises, due to incomplete knowledge of Islam.

That's why I ask you to help show me which points are incorrect, why they are incorrect, and if you can, provide evidence from the Qur'an that they are incorrect.

"While atheist confused and busy about their ghost research, we simply just worship Allah only"

I don't know what you're talking about... sorry.

Paper_rain

Peace Family,

Hell appears to be eternal.

As for those who earned sins, their requital is equivalent to their sin. Humiliation
is their lot, and no one beside GOD can protect them. Their faces will seem overwhelmed
by masses of dark night. They will be the dwellers of Hell; they abide therein forever.

72/23 Sahih International But only notification from Allah ,
and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger -
then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.

Verse (493)
The analysis above refers to the 93rd verse of chapter 4 (srat l-nisa)

Sahih International But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense
is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and
has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

O0

Thank you Hawk99, I will read those verses carefully.

I have had a look.

What do you make of these

6128

11107

I have also read that many scholars believe that the word for 'eternity' just means a long time. Can you comment on the usage of the original Arabic?

unknownuser

I don't agree.

Everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

Deduction is the opposite of guessing- it is taking something we assume to know (premise) like "the Qur'an is true" (this is like a 'guess&#039, but then following from that assumption we can use reason to deduce conclusions that must also be true (if the premise is true).

for example

Premise The Qur'an is true (this is a guess, because it's an assumption based on faith- you can't use reason to prove the)
Premise The Qur'an says Allah is merciful (this is an empirical claim, and we can provide evidence for this by opening the Qur'an and reading it, and quoting it, etc. We can't prove it 100%, but we can be 99.999% sure it says this)

Conclusion If those premises are true, then Allah is merciful.
This is not a guess- it is a deduction, which is conditional on the two premises (one is a 'guess' , the other can be evidenced empirically and is a matter of evidence)

I hope that helps to explain it.

You can see, all of my steps are listed out clearly. IF one of the premises I used is incorrect, then the conclusion may be incorrect. If there is a mistake (like I left out a possibility), then the conclusion might be incorrect.

If there premises are true and there is no mistake in the reasoning, then the conclusions must be true, and that's not a guess.

But, of course, I could have many mistakes, particularly in the premises, due to incomplete knowledge of Islam.

That's why I ask you to help show me which points are incorrect, why they are incorrect, and if you can, provide evidence from the Qur'an that they are incorrect.

Peace Paper Rain

Thankyou for your premis or modus ponnen science, but didn't you know it's not the first time I get discussion with someone who just using premis logic, but actually they avoiding the fact.
Aristoteles,modus ponen, premis logic is Kafir innovation, this logic is only playing the words but avoiding the validation facts.

but I'm a Muslim and I believe if the Quran is not just a piece of papers but it's Allah's commandment, so if we disagree or not we must follow it.

Example is if Allah says "Only Me who knows about metaphysics/gaib" then we must believe this commandment and cannot be debate again.

everybody has authority to use reason- that belongs to all, and it's why we have brains.

But "reason" by avoiding the legilimate verses in the Quran is null.Yes we understand Quran by brain, but Allah's commandment have more autharity then brain.

Thus Quran is different from Bible, I mean there is no perfect Quran translation in this world.So there is no Quran translations which capable 100% appoarching the real meaning of Quran's Arabic text.

Translation is a way to understanding Quran, not as equal of Quran's Arabic mushaf.

By saying this, it's pointless if you researching premises in the Quran just by using translations

GODsubmitter

I hope this topic isn't overdone, but I'm curious about this.

This is my basic understanding (please tell me if I am mistaken)

Iblis is Jinn
Jinn have free will
Therefore, Iblis has free will.
Without free will, a person would not be responsible for his or her actions
This would mean Allah would be responsible for the actions (as the creator of a being without free will)
Therefore, Angels' (or any other beings without free will, as such) actions are not their own responsibility, but the will and responsibility of Allah alone
Iblis does evil.
Allah is pure good, and thus can not be responsible for evil.
Following from 5 7 and 8, Allah can not be responsible for the actions of Iblis.
Therefore (confirming) Iblis must have free will (the curse Allah placed upon him could not remove his free will, as a special class of Jinn)
Allah has promised that all may be forgiven if true repentence is sought before death (that is, except dying in a state of disbelief).
Following from this promise, Iblis could be forgiven if he truly repented and turned back to Allah and away from his evil ways, returning to true belief.
Iblis is not dead, but was granted respite from judgement by Allah until the end times.
Following from Iblis' free will, and the above, Iblis is able to and could make the choice to repent to Allah, and be forgiven.

All of this seems fine until we arrive at the counter-point

Allah has decreed that Iblis will go to hell.

There are many potential contradictions and paradoxes created by this simple point.

Iblis must have free will, which means the possibility for him to repent must remain open (at least from his perspective). Telling him that he will not repent from a position of absolute knoweldge (knowing his own future), can do one of two things

A. It could destroy Iblis' free will (foreknowledge of his own future, committing him to it without choice). This, as per point #10 above, must be impossible.

B. Create a logical contradiction/paradoxical situation. Like traveling back in time and killing yourself. This is also impossible.

There is no other solution I can find to this.

IMPORTANT Keep in mind that it may be fine for Allah to know what somebody's future is, as long as he doesn't tell them their own future. If you understand something about quantum physics, you can view free will like a probability wave function.

The particle doesn't have an exact position and velocity until you measure it (which can be compared to free will). At the point of measuring it, the wave is collapsed (determined).

As long as Allah keeps his foreknowledge seperate from the universe, the free will does not have to collapse. But by telling somebody in certain terms what choice they will make, it must collapse the free will, or create an impossible paradox.

SO, here I come to some new points

In order to retain free will, Iblis can not be told what choices he will make in the future.
Iblis has access to the Quran.
Therefore, the part where Allah says that Iblis will go to hell must in some way have another interpretation, and not reveal Iblis' ultimate choice.
Following from points 14 and 15, if Iblis repents (as he must be permitted to do), he will be forgiven- but he will still go to hell even if he is forgiven.
The Quran provides some suggestion that (for believers) sometimes hell can be temporary.
Therefore, the only apparent conclusion is if Iblis repents, he may go to hell temporarily, thus satisfying Allah's proclamation that he will go to hell, as well as avoiding contradiction with Iblis' free will and Allah's promise of forgiveness.

Is there any support for this possibility in the Qur'an?

That is to say, Iblis has two options

A. Continue to do evil, and go to hell for eternity when he dies in disbelief.
B. Repent, and go to hell for a shorter time to pay for his sins, until Allah intercedes to save him.

But both options must remain open, and though Allah may know which Iblis will choose, he can not reveal that to Iblis (which means the Qur'an must not clearly reveal which will come to pass until it has already happened).

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

Hello @Paper rain!

Excellent post and thank you for it.

It is far from being long because it is very interesting to read!

I like the way the thoughts are unfolded in a very ordered and logical manner.
I wish there were more posts like that in this Forum.

I have nothing noticeable to add, and I have no valuable information to answer the questions raised.
I simply do not want to copy and paste Qur'an or write other citations, because I think everyone with the quest for more knowledge can to that for himself.

I simply think that the ultimate Truth is concealed from the humans for whatever reason, and while we are in this dimension on Earth, we shall never, ever have the ultimate answers, because it is meant to be that way, for whatever reason, and we're clueless about that reason. We can only speculate, of course...
Obviously there are "entities" which initiated, and created the Evil as well as the Good, and we simply have no clues about so many vital matters for our existence. We are still "eating" from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil", therefore transgressing the prohibition not to do it. But on the other side, without "eating" from it and thus developing our egos, we couldn't have even the remotest possibility for the way back to the Original Source, by using our Free Will given us as a gift for that purpose. And Iblees is certainly also the author and creator of the "interpretation" of most religions. Since the Original Source created everything and all, there must be, no matter how small, the part of It in us as well, and conscience and knowledge of that part is our best chance of a way back, finding that piece of God within us.

As I said beforehand, it is just my personal opinion formed with materials fed onto me by education, religious experiences and the rest, the same way it is done for all humans alike, always, all the time.

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honour and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man."

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 56
(translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

Man_of_Faith

Peace Earthdom,

I think you misunderstand Paper rain's point. Actually he is reasoning in good ways. And you say 'logic' is a man-made invention. Well it is just a term humans use to describe when we are rational and reasonable and has nothing to do with an atheist attitude. We have to use logic and rationality when we interpret the Quran or any other source of information, or we will go astray. God told us to use our brains.

Logic is the when you talk about making a choice with the highest probability, what makes most sense and is most reasonable.

Something illogical is contradicting itself, unreasonable and it would be irrational to make that choice.

I find nothing in Quran to be illogical, except a few things in the past which were cleared up such as polygamy and wife beating.

It is also not bad to search to come closer to the Truth by challenging one's belief. That is what the clergymen in the age of Jesus did wrong, their minds were completely made up. And it is why so many people are still stuck in sectarian Islam.

Paper rain is searching for the Truth for unknown reasons. Maybe he is a potential Believer but he is turned off by the religious dogma he is used to. If you attack him because he wants to use his brain and get logical answers he may be less likely to embrace this religion. That is the Sunni treatment.

I became a Believer entirely through logic when I turned to God. I thought about creation and I was never attracted by the traditional religions. If it was solely for them I would never be a Believer. Ironically it was Star Wars which first inspired me to think this way. I do not think of God as a grumpy old man with beard with a stone age book in His arsenal only.

My apologies for being harsh, but we must not make a typically zealous impression on our guest.

God bless you

Paper_rain

Hi Earthdom,

I'm afraid it isn't possible for me to disagree any more strongly than I do. I believe fully in using reason. I don't want to argue with you about it, so I'll just leave you with a quote

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

I think this really gets across the spirit of reason. Maybe we couldn't say if Allah exists or not for sure, but if he did, he must want us to use the minds he gave us, rather than disrespect his gift of logic and reason and disregard our capacity to learn and grow in this world.

I understand if we disagree, but hope you will think about it

Metaphysics is all about using reason to understand and learn more about religion and the transcendent, so if you don't agree with that, it's your choice, but I think that's a little off topic regarding what this post is about

I like the way the thoughts are unfolded in a very ordered and logical manner.
I wish there were more posts like that in this Forum.

Thank you.

I simply think that the ultimate Truth is concealed from the humans for whatever reason, and while we are in this dimension on Earth, we shall never, ever have the ultimate answers, because it is meant to be that way, for whatever reason, and we're clueless about that reason.

Have you ever read any H.P. Lovecraft? It's an interesting idea in some metaphysics (and Lovecraft wrote about it a lot), that the ultimate truth can lead the human mind to madness, because of its nature.
This concept is often repeated, and may provide some reason for that (or maybe not).

But at least we can use reason to speculate about some possibilities for immediate truth that we can access (even if we may never know the deepest motivations of the divine).

Obviously there are "entities" which initiated, and created the Evil as well as the Good, and we simply have no clues about so many vital matters for our existence. We are still "eating" from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil", therefore transgressing the prohibition not to do it. But on the other side, without "eating" from it and thus developing our egos, we couldn't have even the remotest possibility for the way back to the Original Source, by using our Free Will given us as a gift for that purpose. And Iblees is certainly also the author and creator of the "interpretation" of most religions. Since the Original Source created everything and all, there must be, no matter how small, the part of It in us as well, and conscience and knowledge of that part is our best chance of a way back, finding that piece of God within us.

Those are some really interesting ideas! Thank you for sharing. I will think about that.

Man_of_Faith

Peace Paper rain,

It is also a statement in Quran; God said "I gave you your brain, eyesight and hearing for a reason. Rarely are you appreciative".

God bless you

herbman

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

Salam and Peace,

Just to make it short

I like your reasoning but maybe you are mistaking already at the premises, what if your premises were just one hypothesis among others.

I mean you start puttint statements 1.,2.,3. etc but some of these statements can also be discussed and therefore will open more options to what you suggested.

I will start with this one for example, regarding the name IBLIS
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603137.msg287499#msg287499

peace

Paper_rain

Man of Faith,

Thanks, I really appreciated your post.

I like your reasoning but maybe you are mistaking already at the premises, what if your premises were just one hypothesis among others.

I mean you start puttint statements 1.,2.,3. etc but some of these statements can also be discussed and therefore will open more options to what you suggested.

Thank you.

Yes, that's what I said earlier. If somebody has some reason one of those premises are mistaken, or a different interpretation, I would love to hear it.

I have heard a little bit about the idea that Jinn are not supernatural beings, but instead emotional states within our own psyches. It's an interesting idea indeed!

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Paper rain and everyone,

I didn't mean to sound abrupt earlier. So apologies if I came across that way. It's just that I had a feeling what happened with my post may happen - the point about the whole situation that Iblis has started/was in would get lost, as I have seen many a time, and I believe that is very important. So I wanted to make it very very clear.

I think if the Quran says hearts can be sealed, this may be what happened to Iblis after all - I'm not sure if the Quran elaborates on this - it implies an important point about the nature and the way that WE use our free will. This is more about us/humans and jinn than it is about the concept of free will I believe. I'll leave it there.

supportpeacenotwar

I became a Believer entirely through logic when I turned to God. I thought about creation and I was never attracted by the traditional religions. If it was solely for them I would never be a Believer. Ironically it was Star Wars which first inspired me to think this way. I do not think of God as a grumpy old man with beard with a stone age book in His arsenal only.

My apologies for being harsh, but we must not make a typically zealous impression on our guest.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

Logic and reason are definitely an important part of understanding God, our relationship with God etc. I also believe that its an important part of understanding the way the Quran communicates its overall Message and then different points to us. The Quran is anti-stereotypes - so I believe this would even apply to people who follow hadith, we can't stereotype and so on, the Quran mentions guidance in a specific way - but guidance I believe is related to acting our the principles step by step. I think you've mentioned/elaborated on this point of faith and deeds on your thread.

I've also considered the way the structure of the Quran effects the way we approach the Quran itself. We can't be hasty at all. For example, Iblis is a Jinn, and this is explained in some verses but not mentioned specifically in others. We're all learning though, there is always more to learn/understand/apply by the leave of Allah swt.

Paper_rain

Peace Paper rain and everyone,

I didn't mean to sound abrupt earlier. So apologies if I came across that way. It's just that I had a feeling what happened with my post may happen - the point about the whole situation that Iblis has started/was in would get lost, as I have seen many a time, and I believe that is very important. So I wanted to make it very very clear.

I just felt your post was a little disrespectful, and attacking me. That is, personal attacks.

I think you need to understand the concept of free will as contained in the Quran.
It's actually very straightforward in my view.
It's not hard to understand that.
I don't see why you want to discuss with me when THAT is what I want to discuss. So, there we have it - feels very unnecessary. Clearly my original input - I've had to reiterate it all over again so it didn't help.
You can't do that.

When you say I don't understand something, and say over and over again how simple it is to understand, you're basically calling me stupid. And telling me what I can and can not think or do...

It seemed maybe you were a little too angry about the topic, so I left it alone.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Paper rain,

It didn't make me angry, it's just I really was concerned about making it clear, and I do think it is straightforward for myself.

I also use "you" to mean the universal you. For the first one I think I actually meant you. Yes, I was being direct, perhaps too direct so I apologise.

I can get very passionate about this topic and its very close to my heart possibly because of the way I 'left' Islam then came back - I don't think I need to explain what I mean by that - thats not an excuse, its a reason as to why I responded that way. So occasionally that gets the better of me and I worded that in a way that could do without a little extra directness or abruptness. But its not often, in fact on Skype, I was kind of criticised for being too calm, which is a bit ironic.

I myself have been involved in debates where people have actually had a negative response. So I can understand how it feels - and I did not mean this to be a negative response. They use very clear and open sarcasm that is clearly meant for offense rather than mutual comedy, when I never used that with them and such things.

I did not mean to imply you are stupid... you aren't, you've come up with an interesting topic and you've clearly tried to look at this and apply logic in the way you have so far seen best etc.

I definitely did not mean to call you stupid... I meant to say that its straightforward or at least I believe it is for me. Everyone's different though and it doesn't make you stupid if you dont see it as straightforward.

For example, in my case, I have taken some time to consider what Ramadan means. For some people they may have understood it differently to me and much quicker because they believe it means fasting from food. But I don't view it that way. That doesn't make either side smarter or stupid. We just all have our own way of seeing things and how straightforward they are or whether we need to ponder more because we are yet to find a conclusion.

In fact, for some things in the Quran I am still undecided.

In terms of the "you can't do that", I meant that in the general and universal you - anyone referring and applying an idea of how it should be to the Quran or anything for that matter... we can all make that mistake sometimes as well.

I hope you can accept my apology and I really did not mean to attack you personally. I just feel strongly, and sometimes when I see so many points against Islam, I think it leads to a strong response from me occasionally - I don't think you are giving points against Islam as such. You are offering a considered and careful set of questions and ideas, so I appreciate that you are taking the time to understand as well as understand our positions/approaches

But all sorts of different argumentation actually against Islam everywhere nowadays. I can't search for a topic without Islam without every other search coming up with high ranking anti-Islam sites. It can get frustrating - again not an excuse, just an explanation of where I'm coming from on this. This is a lesson in patience as well for me and everyone probably, and on the whole I do keep it, although maybe here I let it slip a little.

I hope you can accept my apology.

supportpeacenotwar

My apologies for being harsh, but we must not make a typically zealous impression on our guest.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

In fairness to Earthdom, I believe he might be saying that our logic - in a conventional or even limited way without for example prayer to Allah - isn't all that we will use. Guidance from Allah swt, supplication etc will "enhance" and show us the way in logic. That in Allah's commandments, as Earthdom put it, there are things which require us to step back from conventional ways of thinking and think outside the box. Perhaps use our logic in different ways.

Earthdom may have meant this or maybe not - but I wonder if English is a foreign language for him that maybe he can't always express himself as fully as he would like.

Paper_rain

Thanks, I accept your apology.

To address your points (sorry to be so direct)

I feel like you want to put outside and normative ideas of free will onto the Quran. You can't do that.

It's not ?outside? or ?normative?. The notions I am applying are derived from reason, and span a broad range of applications and implications-- from ancient times (spanning Abrahamic religion, including influence by Islamic philosophers ), to the cutting edge of modern science.

They are based on a finite number of proposed solutions to the paradox of free will that applies to all religions.

I'm not excluding possibilities, but getting at the root of the concept.

We have to look at how it is used- and the most important point of its use is in regards to moral responsibility, and soteriology. That is how we deduce the meaning- and these are pretty clear in the Qur'an from what I have read.

That's what I was trying to do.

No-one really knows how 'free' free will actually is and I don't believe it means you can do anything and everything as much as you like.

We know exactly what it is in terms of what it's supposed to do- the missing pieces of the equation are the effects with respect to the judgment of Allah, and its compatibility with other concepts (like fate).

Nobody said it means you can do anything and everything as much as you like. It must mean that you can make choices that meaningfully guide your actions in doing good or evil which do not come from Allah. If you couldn't have chosen to do evil instead in a particular situation, then the choice to do good was meaningless, and you didn't have free will in that instance.

There are always going to be parameters to what we can or can't do - free will doesn't mean we can do absolutely anything or everything.

Free will is a complicated topic. We should be weary of simplifying it like that, and making assumptions without evidence.

Can it really be said for certain what free will is without such analysis when the Qur'an is not clear on this point? To do that would be to make an infallible Hadeeth of one's own assumptions, wouldn't it?

All we can know is

It must be compatible with reason (and not contradict anything known or itself)
It must not be contradicted by the Quran (which seems to make clear its purpose and origin being not of Allah).

And in that sense, the most important point of free will is about making decisions, and the concept of justice and moral responsibility. Those things need to be analyzed more carefully to understand what free will might mean in the most exact terms.

For example, when Allah swt bestows the Quran upon Muhammad, He knows Muhammad will do the right thing because of Muhammad's character.

Do we really know that this is exactly how Allah works, or is that an assumption, or based on unreliable Hadeeth? Do you have support from the Qur'an for this?

What exactly is the extent and nature of Allah's knowledge?

That is an important question- and we can not assume the answers so simply. It may come down to the original Arabic, and careful interpretation based on usage and examples.

Allah swt decrees that some hearts can be sealed, because they have utilised their free will in such a way - a way that we do not understand or know about.

Did Allah say that? Did he say that it is through free will that hearts can be sealed? And did he say exactly what it meant that hearts can be sealed? Did he say that this nullified free will, and that hearts can never be unsealed by other means?

The important thing to point out is that one should, in rational discussion, make any assumptions very clear so they can be questioned, and checked with the Qur'an and with reason. It's not useful to include so many assumptions within a declaration of fact, because it can confuse discussion.

If Allah knows all things, then He knows whether with someone's free will, they will do good or evil or change their mind up to the point of finality.

This is true. That's a logical statement.

Allah knows all, past, present, and future.
Therefore, he knows if somebody with free will will do good, evil, or change their minds.

2 is conditional based on 1.

Now, we just have to use the Qur'an to prove point #1, and make sure there is no contradiction or misinterpretation.

Isn't there argument among Muslims about the exact nature and extent of Allah's knowledge? There may be different interpretations of this, based on translation, or even metaphysical or logistical details.

You have to really go through each step of what happened to appreciate the end result. That's what I said in the first place and you haven't really addressed that in my opinion.

I think you are interpreting the story of Iblis in a very typical but one-sided way, based on Hadeeth, and not based on what it actually says in the Qur'an- which allows us to see it in many different ways.

I suggest you read the genesis stories of the Torah, and the beginning of Milton's paradise lost- this may give you some perspective on different views on the fall. Consider psychology, and the seemingly irrational behavior of Iblis (who should be understood to be very rational and intelligent)- and then you could look at what the Qur'an actually says, and put yourself in Iblis' situation.

Why is Iblis angry? Why is he actually angry (look deeper)?
What does his anger say about his perception of Allah?
Is his perception of Allah accurate?
How did he perceive Allah before hand? And what changed?
How would he feel about this (put yourself in his place and imagine his situation and feelings)?

This topic isn't actually as interesting as I thought, because to discuss it we have to be more open minded about the terminology and concepts in the Quran and how they fit together.

This topic isn't interesting because you have to be open minded? o

That's the basis of free thought; and necessary for learning or seeing things in a different way from what you were told by others. If you are satisfied with the interpretation of experts in the Hadeeth, then this topic probably isn't for you...
Personally, after talking to Sunni on the subject, I am not satisfied with the (lack of) answers from the Hadeeth (and it's inconsistencies).

That's OK. Not all people are interested in these kinds of metaphysical discussions. I totally understand if you're not interested in discussing it further. But thank you for your ideas. )

spodacus

Salam,

One point I would like to make on this debate is that people seem to forget that there will FIRST be a "Day of Judgement" before we are sentenced to a Heaven or Hell. There are many verses describing in detail the difficulties of this day. It is considered THE most important day of your life (and afterlife).

My point is that we should be having more conversation about this particular day rather than the resultant reward (Heaven) or punishment (Hell). Think about it, you are going to stand in front of Allah who will question every aspect of your life, and you are busy debating the analogies of Heaven/Hell. Everyone has a different understanding of Heaven/Hell, it does not in the least change your iman, nor the fact that you are going to be judged. If Hell is temporary or eternal, who cares, either way your goal in life is to AVOID it regardless.

Let's have healthy discussion, but remember to focus on the Day of Judgement and how to succeed on that Day! ;D

Nor should different understandings of Heaven/Hell be a dividing factor within the community.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Paper rain,

I am a little puzzled at some of your language and your choice to have a direct response - when the whole reason for me issuing that apology was because the direct style of response should be avoided.

That is a long reply with a lot of things that I'd need to go through and check what I want to say - and considering our discussion so far, I'd want to make sure I say it right and put what has happened behind us - , and I have responses though I am not sure if you find them too simple or outside of rational discussion - as you've already referred to. If this is the case this means our discussion in itself will be very limited. Although maybe some things both in the Quran and life in general are more simple than they first appear.

I would also need to look up Quran verses as I can only study the Quran in my spare time, not my full time. Like with other responses on here that are long - I've had to just leave them. In fact, it probably means its wiser for me not to actually get involved in too much discussion here, as understandably some people have longer responses and I just can't get back on that kind of lengthy stuff.

If I were to look some of these things up something like voice chat, because I'm not at unviersity or anything so I don't have a huge amount of time to spend on responses. In fact, just before I taking up some time I could have done with and tbh I can't really keep using my time like that anymore. Writing down your (universal your there) responses takes more time often than just being able to talk about them, especially if both sides decide to have a set of rules they abide by. We could do that if we are willing to put everything else behind us.

To clarify on the issue of hadith - I don't know what the Hadith say about Iblis. I've got all of this purely from reading the story of Iblis in the Quran. I am going to follow the rest of this up in a PM as I feel the part I am a bit puzzled by doesn't actually need to be put here as it could get drawn out just like my last two replies here.

The thing about open minded with regards to the Quran - that's in relation to the fact that whatever conception of free will we may have considered, I meant there's always the issue that we have to consider what terminology and concepts as stated in the Quran and how they work together first. That's before we refer to ideas beyond it.

Edit Here's a quick analogy outside the Quran and even logical conclusions (I know not everyone will think its logical but as Muslims, most here do so thats why I'm saying that) of one God, there are conceptions of more than one God. Believe me, I know, I used to practice Paganism. So in this case someone could say oh right so the Quran says "He", I guess that means its a male god since our conception of Gods and Goddesses refers to male and female.

But we'd say, no, it can't really be taken that way. We'd advise them to step back a little and look at what the Quran has to say about the distinction between creation and Creator, and how Deity cannot be compared to anything else. We could also refer to the conclusions that Abraham reaches after reflection upon the natural world and such things. So, that's what I'm really getting at... as I felt you may be doing that. If you're not, that's fine, it just seemed that way. Maybe this is another reason why voice chat is a good thing for such vast topics like this.

And my word, I hope you don't mind me saying, but you never know maybe it'll interest you, your discussion and your style of language remind me so much of an atheist I was talking to on Skype. He always discusses Islam a lot and is interested in theology. What a world.