Iblis and the metaphysics of free will and soteriology

supportpeacenotwar

The Abdel Haleem translation I use most says "I swear I shall fill hell with you and all who follow you!" (71 If all who follow Iblis are sentenced to hell, because they will not repent, then isn't it simply saying that Iblis will be sent to hell if he keeps on doing the same thing.

The issue here though is that the Quran does also say that hearts can be sealed - it says how some will not return and there are references to and warnings about those whose hearts turn as hard as stone or harder. As this is used many places in the Quran, you'd have to check all of them to verify whether this means that some are on a path they've chosen from which they can't return because it is so damning and their hearts do not return to repentance because of this. i.e. their free will lead them there.

I've tried to give my contribution and its apparently fallen short of what you want Paper rain, but it others here are asking you the questions you want or saying the things that seem right to you. So I will leave my questions and comments off this thread 1. the style of response caused problems earlier 2. that all took up a lot of time that I could have used to say a bit more or just explore this topic for my own personal understanding.

Peace!

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Eblees was doomed when he was told by God before the game started, but God somehow granted him respite until the end of days, possibly as part of the trial.

God bless you

unknownuser

Peace Earthdom,

I think you misunderstand Paper rain's point. Actually he is reasoning in good ways. And you say 'logic' is a man-made invention. Well it is just a term humans use to describe when we are rational and reasonable and has nothing to do with an atheist attitude. We have to use logic and rationality when we interpret the Quran or any other source of information, or we will go astray. God told us to use our brains.

Man of Faith, I think you're the one who misunderstood my post handshake.

Actually I have no intention, to attack Paper Rain from the start, but just give suggestion to him/her if too much usage of modus ponnens is not too good.

It's not the first time I get argue with someone who just using premissal games, but they actually avoiding the facts.
It's when I get debate with Sunni in a domestic forum, I give some facts which is the proof if their argument is fault instread he using modus ponnes, playing words and he actually didn't understand about musthalah hadith/science of hadith

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

Metaphysics is all about using reason to understand and learn more about religion and the transcendent, so if you don't agree with that, it's your choice, but I think that's a little off topic regarding what this post is about

Thank you Paper Rain, the quote you gave to me is good, I like Galileo Galilei too ).

But Paper Rain, yes you're true if "We understanding the Scripture by intellegence", but remember usage of intellegence also have the limits especially if we talk something about methaphysic or gaib.Human intelegence is limited by rulers/Allah commandment (the Quran)

The example is the verses I gave to you before if "Only Allah who have knowledge about gaib", this means as Muslim we must believe that verses, disagree or not.This verses is very clearly stated if human intellegence cannot appoarch something such like gaib, djinn, malaykat etc.
Human intelegence only capable to appoarch something scientific and reasonable.

Your statement reminds me of a Liberalist from my country , he say something like.

"All religions is same, to reach and finding the God we must use our intellegence"

This statement sound reasonable, but very against the limit.
The meaning of that quote is
"There no religion is the most correct, so to finding the God we must use our brain, and how to find a God, we have different ways each other.
Religion and Scripture is one of the ways, so it has possibility if we may use Bible, Quran, Wedha Scripture etc as sources of our salvation.It's up to us to use what Scripture, because religion and Scripture is only tools to reach our "God".

This explanation sound intelect, but also very dangerous, because by saying if all religion is same this means we not believe in existence of Allah, and didn't believe in Quran's literal teks instead use intelligence as primary sources of religion.

Why we must believe on Quran's literal teks, because it's commandment (just try reading Quran translation then you may find many many commandmet about it).

In fairness to Earthdom, I believe he might be saying that our logic - in a conventional or even limited way without for example prayer to Allah - isn't all that we will use. Guidance from Allah swt, supplication etc will "enhance" and show us the way in logic. That in Allah's commandments, as Earthdom put it, there are things which require us to step back from conventional ways of thinking and think outside the box. Perhaps use our logic in different ways.

Earthdom may have meant this or maybe not - but I wonder if English is a foreign language for him that maybe he can't always express himself as fully as he would like.

Supportpeacenotwar, don't worry about it , I still understand what Paper Rain said.

Thank you for making clear, you're capable to understand me indeed ).

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

We are supposed to use our intelligence in religion. God said "I gave you your brain, eyesight and hearing for a reason. Rarely are you appreciative".

God bless you

savage_carrot

-This raises a question What is the curse, exactly?

If you look through the usage, it seems to be referring to something that they have brought upon themselves http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=lEn#(15353)

If you look at the story of Iblis in that light, it may tend to support that we will all be judged according to our deeds on the day on judgement and Iblis can thus still have a possibility to be redeemed if he chooses it and quits his action plan but what if Iblis has already been judged despite when his respite is up? In the latter, it would seem that his actions and mindset as you say = freewill/choice chooses this and accepts, so the respite is basically a period separate from what would apply for those that have not been judged, as both know the judgement has already been passed based on what happened before. The meta knowledge interfering with free choice is thus moot?

I have often wondered where the malaika go when judgement day arriveth, on another note. Have they perhaps passed their tests; already been judged? Is that maybe what this original argument was about; where it led to? Another interesting point of discussion would be how meta knowledge could affect our choices as you bring up in your original post (btw, great thinking material, and way of presentation). If we know where a particular choice would take us, would we choose it? How much would our choice depend on fear of the consequences rather than doing what we think is right in that case? Regarding Iblis, he chose what he did with clear knowledge of where he'd be with that choice inclusive of why he was choosing it (because he thought he was right due to pride and arrogance despite what he knew of Allah) or was he confused and had no clue? One could say he knew the consequences and chose what he believed in wrongly even though he thinks/thought it right.

This really would be the heights of stupidity/pride/arrogance given that you think you know better than Allah and given that you're in an argument with the man Himself. The respite is just that, a respite then. Not a game changer for him. One could still ask the question, that if Iblis repents during his respite, would he be saved? Apparently, it wouldn't work that way, and neither would Iblis. Would definitely like to see more discussion on your original post/points, since I'm just throwing possibilities here, haven't revisited this topic in a long while.

The lovecraft insanity mechanic drives me insane, board game or otherwise

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace savage_carrot + the rest of you

I have a feeling that Shaytaan is very determined in misleading humans and he has done so for ages. Also he is practically dead already but on respite, for a bit unknown reasons, until the end of days. He seems to live on as an evil spirit in this world, possibly as which we in everyday speech refer to as a demon. I however think that Eblees was a whole faction which may have rebelled against God so it may be an army of evil spirits in this world trying to claim human victims. Eblees/Shaytaan might be the leader of this evil force.

I doubt Shaytaan will repent now, he seems to be filled with hate and have no remorse.

But you may have asked hypothetically, if he was not judged already and only being around on respite? Well, he is obviously committing idol worship which God looks down on very much and he is a liar by helping humans betray their own people. He helps with a lot of mischief and he seemingly actively possess people and in that further aids in horrendous atrocities.

But yet if God would forgive him if he repented now and turned around 180 until the end of days from now on I am not qualified to answer, even if it was possible. I think the test would be a lot easier for the humans from that moment due to Shaytaan's changed influence to an all good one. Unfortunately I doubt this is not in God's plot.

God bless you

supportpeacenotwar

Peace savage_carrot,

I'm putting this here as a general post not specific to what I said earlier about not commenting You've brought up similar issues that I brought up earlier but it was also sort of taken issue with or not really considered on its own grounds. The other thing with Iblis is he seems to think he has nowhere to improve or make amends. Having said that, I wonder about all this discussion and how "deep" we go sometimes. In some cases this could be counter productive or maybe that's how it is for me right now given where I am on my spiritual path. We're all at a different stage.

savage_carrot

Peace savage_carrot + the rest of you

I have a feeling that Shaytaan is very determined in misleading humans and he has done so for ages. Also he is practically dead already but on respite, for a bit unknown reasons, until the end of days. He seems to live on as an evil spirit in this world, possibly as which we in everyday speech refer to as a demon. I however think that Eblees was a whole faction which may have rebelled against God so it may be an army of evil spirits in this world trying to claim human victims. Eblees/Shaytaan might be the leader of this evil force.

I doubt Shaytaan will repent now, he seems to be filled with hate and have no remorse.

But you may have asked hypothetically, if he was not judged already and only being around on respite? Well, he is obviously committing idol worship which God looks down on very much and he is a liar by helping humans betray their own people. He helps with a lot of mischief and he seemingly actively possess people and in that further aids in horrendous atrocities.

But yet if God would forgive him if he repented now and turned around 180 until the end of days from now on I am not qualified to answer, even if it was possible. I think the test would be a lot easier for the humans from that moment due to Shaytaan's changed influence to an all good one. Unfortunately I doubt this is not in God's plot.

God bless you

I'm not sure what you mean MoF. Being given a respite wouldn't mean that he wouldn't do horrible things confused

peace

savage_carrot

Peace savage_carrot,

I'm putting this here as a general post not specific to what I said earlier about not commenting You've brought up similar issues that I brought up earlier but it was also sort of taken issue with or not really considered on its own grounds. The other thing with Iblis is he seems to think he has nowhere to improve or make amends. Having said that, I wonder about all this discussion and how "deep" we go sometimes. In some cases this could be counter productive or maybe that's how it is for me right now given where I am on my spiritual path. We're all at a different stage.

Not sure what you wrote, but in PaperRain's defense from what I've read, s/he seems unlikely to not consider different pov's. Probably something else )

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace savage carrot

No, that was not my point. The last part was hypothetically if Shaytaan would begin to regret all that he has done. It had nothing to do with that being granted a respite he would not commit atrocities.

Well, I do not believe in that myself, but I thought we were about to speak hypothetically. He is already doomed to Hell and now he is only working hard on bringing as many people with him as possible.

God bless you

savage_carrot

Peace savage carrot

No, that was not my point. The last part was hypothetically if Shaytaan would begin to regret all that he has done. It had nothing to do with that being granted a respite he would not commit atrocities.

If you're referring to
One could still ask the question, that if Iblis repents during his respite, would he be saved? Apparently, it wouldn't work that way, and neither would Iblis.
Yes, I agree...? The respite has nothing to do with whether he regrets or doesn't. It's done and dusted as it were. So, whatever Iblis chooses to do with his time even if it is to sit on his posterior and just sulk till kingdom come...he's the one who has put himself in that position. His respite is for his plan of action, not because he may regret or slink off into the galactic sunset never to be heard of from again.

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

...

God bless you

hawk99

Thank you Hawk99, I will read those verses carefully.
I have had a look.
What do you make of these
6128
11107
I have also read that many scholars believe that the word for 'eternity' just means a long time. Can you comment on the usage of the original Arabic?

Peace Paper rain,

The original arabic for khlidna in 6/128 has been translated in
the dictionary to mean immortal, timeless, imperishable, deathless,
undying, outstanding, perennial.

As far as 11/107 khlidna is the same word, however, I am not sure
of the context in either ayat.

God is Merciful

peace

Paper_rain

If you look at the story of Iblis in that light, it may tend to support that we will all be judged according to our deeds on the day on judgement and Iblis can thus still have a possibility to be redeemed if he chooses it and quits his action plan but what if Iblis has already been judged despite when his respite is up? In the latter, it would seem that his actions and mindset as you say = freewill/choice chooses this and accepts, so the respite is basically a period separate from what would apply for those that have not been judged, as both know the judgement has already been passed based on what happened before. The meta knowledge interfering with free choice is thus moot?

The trick there is that he's still making choices. After death, people no longer make any choices (because they're dead), so that at least makes some sense.... but Iblis isn't dead; or even if he were bodily dead, he's still acting.

As he is still acting, unless Allah has explicitly stripped him of free will, he must still have the ability to chose good over evil, right over wrong, with any choice- if he wills it.

If Allah stripped him of free will, then he's basically been forced to stay on the wrong path- which would seem to make Allah responsible for the wrongs he does (and, of course, that's a problem).

Regarding pre-judgment

We know human beings are only said to be judged on the final day (Allah may know what will happen, but reserves judgment until then, right? There's a whole ordeal and ceremony ). It seems (without saying otherwise) that this must apply to Jinn too (since some Jinn are Qur'an following Muslims, and that would be a contradiction if it didn't apply to them).

It wouldn't necessarily make sense for Iblis to be a special case. People have disobeyed Allah before. They either get back on track or they don't, but they're still not judged until the end times (after resurrection). If I remember correctly, many of them were even punished on the spot; but it seems they still wouldn't face final judgment until the last days.

Allah also mentioned the day of judgment with respect to the reprieve and the curse (which kind of implies it's absolute, and Iblis hasn't been judged yet).

Figuring out what the reprieve is from may be an important part of it.

It seemed to me like Iblis was asking for Allah to not kill him then and there for his disobedience (or something like this). But, Allah never threatened that.

From what I've read, there are two basic forms of the story

Allah Go out of heaven.
Iblis Please grant me reprieve.
Allah You are reprieved, now go out.

Allah Go out of heaven, my curse will be upon you until the day of judgment.
Iblis Please grant me reprieve.
Allah You are reprieved, now go out.

What's he being reprieved from?

One mentions the curse, and one does not. Is it the curse he's being reprieved from?
Or is this to be interpreted as Iblis asking for immortality (reprieve from mortal death, which wasn't mentioned)?

Either way, I can't see a basis for the judgment having been said in the Qur'an to already be passed.
Judgment already having been passed while Iblis still has life, free will, and time to repent would also contradict Allah's mercy, unless the ruling is provisional and Allah can reverse it.

The statement reads like a mixture of warning and prophecy. The problem is that there's a fine line (if any) between prophecy and judgment- and when the prophecy is about the judgment in certain terms, there's really no meaningful line at all.

And that's where the ?Prophecy+Freewill+Allah's mercy = Contradiction? comes in.

It seems like one of them has to give. Which is the weakest link?

Is it possible for Allah to break his promise and not be merciful?
Is if possible for Iblis to not have free will in these actions?
Is it possible that the prophesy was provisional, and more of a warning?

If all three are certain and absolute, it becomes a little like the situation in Dogma (did you see the movie?)

Basically, if Iblis wanted to destroy the universe, he'd just have to repent, creating a contradiction and undoing all of creation.

Now here's a puzzler

If Iblis realized that, and repented to destroy creation, it wouldn't be sincere, and therefore wouldn't count.
If Iblis was sincere in his heart and wanted to repent, and he knew it would destroy creation, he would have to not repent to save reality (the ultimate in martyrdom- eternal hellfire to save the world).
BUT, Allah is merciful, could he allow that to happen if Iblis' heart was true (it must be assumed that Allah knows this to be the case, since he knows all)?
By simply believing, regardless of action, Iblis effectively repents and becomes a believer, which means he has to be saved from eternal hellfire.
So by his free will shifting in the seed of his heart towards good, all of creation would be undone at the time of judgment.
From a multiverse resolution of free will (that there are many equally valid universes for every moral choice), this would destroy every universe in which he repents.
That would leave only the universes in which he does not repent, collapsing his free will and nullifying it.
Because Allah knew this would happen before hand (it wouldn't be a surprise), this would represent an action on Allah's part to Deny Iblis free will in the matter of doing evil.
And that would make the evil deeds Iblis does Allah's responsibility.
Allah is all good and incapable of doing evil, and yet does evil. This creates a contradiction.
The universe is nullified.

Assuming the universe exists... one of those three things has to give. Right?

I have often wondered where the malaika go when judgement day arriveth, on another note. Have they perhaps passed their tests; already been judged? Is that maybe what this original argument was about; where it led to?

In my understanding, Angels don't have free will. Judgment is irrelevant for them.

Another interesting point of discussion would be how meta knowledge could affect our choices as you bring up in your original post (btw, great thinking material, and way of presentation). If we know where a particular choice would take us, would we choose it?

I think that's a little different. Prophecy basically tells you which choice you will make, denying you free will in totality.

With simple knowledge of what would happen if you made a choice, you can still make the choice according to free will (you just do so without the excuse of not knowing the consequences, so you're more morally responsible for the outcome).

Regarding Iblis, he chose what he did with clear knowledge of where he'd be with that choice inclusive of why he was choosing it (because he thought he was right due to pride and arrogance despite what he knew of Allah) or was he confused and had no clue? One could say he knew the consequences and chose what he believed in wrongly even though he thinks/thought it right.

Well, we almost all do what we think is right- even great evils are committed in this way (e.g. extremist/fundamentalist religion, Nazism, etc.). Nobody sets out to be evil, but are led off the right course by ignorance. Some of that ignorance stems from delusion caused by pride.

In this case, Iblis in that moment saw Allah as unjust, or making a mistake. That is, he stopped believing in Allah as a perfect being. He became a disbeliever, and lost faith in Allah.

Where before he saw the one god, now he saw a flawed being- either one which was a tyrant, or one which was good intentioned but foolish, and needed to be taught.

Both interpretations might be correct.

Based on his actions, it seems more like he believed that Allah was making a mistake- which may have stemmed from his pride and feelings of injustice, but ultimately with his positive feelings towards Allah channeling it into a belief that Allah was simply mistaken about mankind (instead of being unjust).

It's like a child who saw a parent as perfect, to be revealed a character flaw. This was crushing to Iblis- he felt distraught. It was that he lost faith in Allah- in what Allah was.

Remember, not even the Angels understood Allah's actions- and for good reason; the ultimate purpose of man is a secret Allah keeps. But the Angels had no free will (thus no faith to lose), and they obeyed.

Allah perhaps could have explained himself to Iblis- the otherwise inexplicable purpose of making mankind- but he did not. He wanted Iblis to have faith in him, even against all he knows.

Iblis faith was tested in the most extreme way, and he failed that test. He lost faith in Allah- instead of believing in him as a god, believing in him as a flawed being.

It's like Iblis saw Allah as Humpty Dumpty fallen off a wall- something which was broken and needed to be fixed (otherwise, why argue with him?).

Oh, but Allah was so stubborn! He wouldn't see reason! If Iblis could just prove to Allah that man was not worthy of Allah- then Allah would see.

Or, at least that's how Iblis probably would have seen it.

I think it would be an error to think that Iblis' love for Allah was lost- just as a child doesn't lose love for a parent when they realize their parents aren't perfect.

Iblis asked for respite to prove Allah wrong, and set Allah back on the right path for the universe. He's trying to help 'fix' Allah, because he sees Allah as that mistaken about mankind. To put things back the right way- the way they were.

How could disbelief be any more complete than believing you need to correct Allah?
That's not believing in Allah as he is- that's something else entirely.

In some senses, Iblis' actions may have noble intent- even though he risks hellfire (when he could have just gone along with it), he wants to fix Allah to the correct and right vision of the universe.
His sin was and remains disbelief in the true nature of Allah.

This really would be the heights of stupidity/pride/arrogance given that you think you know better than Allah and given that you're in an argument with the man Himself.

More likely just loss of faith. It doesn't make any sense that Iblis would do that if he believed Allah was as he really is. Iblis is basically confused- perhaps he confused himself, as people so often do. This may stem from pride (making him unable to accept the reality of Mankind's value).

One thing to consider is this, though

Iblis may live to see Mankind achieve greatness that Jinn never did- perhaps because mankind is so limited, and need Allah to access the spiritual dimensions (unlike Jinn, more prone to drift from purpose because of the ease of doing so), that makes them more suited to become the universe Allah intended.

The nature of Allah's higher purpose for man (whatever that is), and mankind's unique suitability may some time just click for Iblis.

Just a thought. The realization that he was wrong, for Iblis, might be inevitable- the only question being whether he can overcome his momentum and stubbornness and see it; and that would have to be a choice based on his free will. And maybe that's why Allah granted him reprieve? So he could have time to come to see the error of his ways, and face the ultimate test.

Ah, long post. Sorry about that.

noshirk

salaam paper rain.
this is my opinion

Iblis is Jinn
Jinn have free will
Therefore, Iblis has free will.
Without free will, a person would not be responsible for his or her actions
This would mean Allah would be responsible for the actions (as the creator of a being without free will)
Therefore, Angels' (or any other beings without free will, as such) actions are not their own responsibility, but the will and responsibility of Allah alone

OK until here.

Iblis does evil.

Not precise.
Ibliss refused the teaching of his Rabb (rabb=educator) and was the one who refused to listen and obey (soujoud) to what the unique Rabb teached to Adam.

Take it as a classroom of angels. Angels have total free will as long when they are in conformity with teaching of the great Rabb.

Allah is pure good, and thus can not be responsible for evil.

cannot understant what "thus" make here.

Following from 5 7 and 8, Allah can not be responsible for the actions of Iblis.

False at 50%. Ibliss (through his descent) has a mission from God. His mission is to propagate lies in order God will be able tyo prove to Jinn (our imagination) that they have choosed the wrong path when they have been given the free will.
Jinns who use free will to contest\follow false teachers will not be able the enter Jenna.

Therefore (confirming) Iblis must have free will
Allah has promised that all may be forgiven if true repentence is sought before death (that is, except dying in a state of disbelief).

true

Jinns who use free will to contest\follow false teachers will not be able the enter Jenna.

Following from this promise, Iblis could be forgiven if he truly repented and turned back to Allah and away from his evil ways, returning to true belief.

false. Ibliss was just delayed. In fact Ibliss in the form as he appeared in quran is dead.
it remains only "a force" that push jinns far for God. Chayt spirit is to be opposed to spirit from God and Jinns have to choose between the two. "the power" of chaytan is only to tell lies through our imagination (Jinn)

Jinns who use free will to contest\follow false teachers will not be able the enter Jenna.

Iblis is not dead, but was granted respite from judgement by Allah until the end times.

Ibliss is dead. He is the "adam" of Jinns.
Please note that Ibliss name appears only in one episode in quran.

Following from Iblis' free will, and the above, Iblis is able to and could make the choice to repent to Allah, and be forgiven.

non sense. Descent of Ibliss can do that (18-50). Ibliss is dead.

All of this seems fine until we arrive at the counter-point
15. Allah has decreed that Iblis will go to hell.

There are many potential contradictions and paradoxes created by this simple point.

Iblis must have free will, which means the possibility for him to repent must remain open (at least from his perspective). Telling him that he will not repent from a position of absolute knoweldge (knowing his own future), can do one of two things

A. It could destroy Iblis' free will (foreknowledge of his own future, committing him to it without choice). This, as per point #10 above, must be impossible.

B. Create a logical contradiction/paradoxical situation. Like traveling back in time and killing yourself. This is also impossible.

Iblis case is closed. He is dead and will go to hell.

There is no other solution I can find to this.

IMPORTANT Keep in mind that it may be fine for Allah to know what somebody's future is, as long as he doesn't tell them their own future. If you understand something about quantum physics, you can view free will like a probability wave function.

The particle doesn't have an exact position and velocity until you measure it (which can be compared to free will). At the point of measuring it, the wave is collapsed (determined).

As long as Allah keeps his foreknowledge seperate from the universe, the free will does not have to collapse. But by telling somebody in certain terms what choice they will make, it must collapse the free will, or create an impossible paradox.

God is not submitted to time dimension. Time dimension is part of the theater for the test.
God knows the future and have already agreed what will happens.

SO, here I come to some new points

In order to retain free will, Iblis can not be told what choices he will make in the future.
Iblis has access to the Quran.
Therefore, the part where Allah says that Iblis will go to hell must in some way have another interpretation, and not reveal Iblis' ultimate choice.
Following from points 14 and 15, if Iblis repents (as he must be permitted to do), he will be forgiven- but he will still go to hell even if he is forgiven.
The Quran provides some suggestion that (for believers) sometimes hell can be temporary.
Therefore, the only apparent conclusion is if Iblis repents, he may go to hell temporarily, thus satisfying Allah's proclamation that he will go to hell, as well as avoiding contradiction with Iblis' free will and Allah's promise of forgiveness.

Is there any support for this possibility in the Qur'an?

That is to say, Iblis has two options

A. Continue to do evil, and go to hell for eternity when he dies in disbelief.
B. Repent, and go to hell for a shorter time to pay for his sins, until Allah intercedes to save him.

But both options must remain open, and though Allah may know which Iblis will choose, he can not reveal that to Iblis (which means the Qur'an must not clearly reveal which will come to pass until it has already happened).

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

Ibliss is dead.

you can read here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604954.0
for meanings of words jinn, chaytan, malaika, ibliss.

To resume, let say that Ibliss spirit (chayt) is opposite to spirit of God.(rouh).
when a child of adam reproduce, a jinn is created and associated to the child of adam as mix of the two spirits.
the Jinn has then, will total free will, to choose between the two.

Battle is not between good and bad but between truth and lies, reason and stupidity, knowledge and ignorance. Truth produces good. Lies can produce good but only temporary.

You are here only to decide from whom you receive (you aslam) knowledge and to what knowlege you have to take care (iman).

To force your Jinn to choose, he was associated with a biological spirit. Your Nafs.
Nafs has permanent and constant needs. Many Jinns takes their biological jail as idol.
Biology has no ego and no pretentiousness who are the two defaults who astrayed Ibliss.

the story begins here 38-69
Peace

savage_carrot

The trick there is that he's still making choices. After death, people no longer make any choices (because they're dead), so that at least makes some sense.... but Iblis isn't dead; or even if he were bodily dead, he's still acting.

As he is still acting, unless Allah has explicitly stripped him of free will, he must still have the ability to chose good over evil, right over wrong, with any choice- if he wills it.

If Allah stripped him of free will, then he's basically been forced to stay on the wrong path- which would seem to make Allah responsible for the wrongs he does (and, of course, that's a problem).
He made his choice, case closed, end of? In a lot of the translations, it could get confusing as to who's being mentioned, Iblis or Shaytaan or a multitude of them etc.

We know human beings are only said to be judged on the final day (Allah may know what will happen, but reserves judgment until then, right? There's a whole ordeal and ceremony ). It seems (without saying otherwise) that this must apply to Jinn too (since some Jinn are Qur'an following Muslims, and that would be a contradiction if it didn't apply to them).
Like noshirk says, makes sense to think of him like Adam no?

It wouldn't necessarily make sense for Iblis to be a special case. People have disobeyed Allah before. They either get back on track or they don't, but they're still not judged until the end times (after resurrection). If I remember correctly, many of them were even punished on the spot; but it seems they still wouldn't face final judgment until the last days.
People aren't in the position they were. Can you imagine being in God's light still going on about I know better? We have examples of the malaika that chose to trust in God's plan, not so Iblis and party.

Figuring out what the reprieve is from may be an important part of it.
The respite imo is for him to do what he says he wants to as it's part of Allah's plan. Not sure how else one could take it.

It seemed to me like Iblis was asking for Allah to not kill him then and there for his disobedience (or something like this). But, Allah never threatened that.
No, don't think killing was part of it.

From what I've read, there are two basic forms of the story

Allah Go out of heaven.
Iblis Please grant me reprieve.
Allah You are reprieved, now go out.

Allah Go out of heaven, my curse will be upon you until the day of judgment.
Iblis Please grant me reprieve.
Allah You are reprieved, now go out.

What's he being reprieved from?

One mentions the curse, and one does not. Is it the curse he's being reprieved from?
Or is this to be interpreted as Iblis asking for immortality (reprieve from mortal death, which wasn't mentioned)?

In previous discussions, we've discussed this as being stripped of his malaika title. I tend to agree with that. His reprieve is after that to go forth and wreak havoc, part of the plan and all.

Either way, I can't see a basis for the judgment having been said in the Qur'an to already be passed.
Judgment already having been passed while Iblis still has life, free will, and time to repent would also contradict Allah's mercy, unless the ruling is provisional and Allah can reverse it.
So you'd disagree with point 15 not being a judgement even if it is a decree because all entities will be judged later so it has to be something like a prophetic warning. Here's where the fine line also becomes an issue for me.

The statement reads like a mixture of warning and prophecy. The problem is that there's a fine line (if any) between prophecy and judgment- and when the prophecy is about the judgment in certain terms, there's really no meaningful line at all.

And that's where the ?Prophecy+Freewill+Allah's mercy = Contradiction? comes in.

It seems like one of them has to give. Which is the weakest link?

Is it possible for Allah to break his promise and not be merciful?
Is if possible for Iblis to not have free will in these actions?
Is it possible that the prophesy was provisional, and more of a warning?

If all three are certain and absolute, it becomes a little like the situation in Dogma (did you see the movie?)

Basically, if Iblis wanted to destroy the universe, he'd just have to repent, creating a contradiction and undoing all of creation.
yeah saw it a while back but don't remember much of it. My view on Iblis is that he was a malaika, screwed up and got stripped of his title. The resultant brouhaha saw him swearing off any decent path, collecting his band of misfits and stalking off to do what he promised. The story after that is that he did what he promised and his band of misfits do the same. Far as Iblis goes, guess then the discussion would revolve around whether he's a thought process/entity of some sort hanging around still capable of making a choice, or whether it's his legacy which is being mentioned.

Now here's a puzzler

If Iblis realized that, and repented to destroy creation, it wouldn't be sincere, and therefore wouldn't count.
If Iblis was sincere in his heart and wanted to repent, and he knew it would destroy creation, he would have to not repent to save reality (the ultimate in martyrdom- eternal hellfire to save the world).
BUT, Allah is merciful, could he allow that to happen if Iblis' heart was true (it must be assumed that Allah knows this to be the case, since he knows all)?
By simply believing, regardless of action, Iblis effectively repents and becomes a believer, which means he has to be saved from eternal hellfire.
So by his free will shifting in the seed of his heart towards good, all of creation would be undone at the time of judgment.
From a multiverse resolution of free will (that there are many equally valid universes for every moral choice), this would destroy every universe in which he repents.
That would leave only the universes in which he does not repent, collapsing his free will and nullifying it.
Because Allah knew this would happen before hand (it wouldn't be a surprise), this would represent an action on Allah's part to Deny Iblis free will in the matter of doing evil.
And that would make the evil deeds Iblis does Allah's responsibility.
Allah is all good and incapable of doing evil, and yet does evil. This creates a contradiction.
The universe is nullified.

Assuming the universe exists... one of those three things has to give. Right?
A lot of different things tbh. why even create something that would go wrong putting the ultimate responsibility of every choice that is ever made on God? Nothing should exist.

In my understanding, Angels don't have free will. Judgment is irrelevant for them.
Don't agree with that.

I think that's a little different. Prophecy basically tells you which choice you will make, denying you free will in totality.

With simple knowledge of what would happen if you made a choice, you can still make the choice according to free will (you just do so without the excuse of not knowing the consequences, so you're more morally responsible for the outcome).
Not exactly my point but okay.

Well, we almost all do what we think is right- even great evils are committed in this way (e.g. extremist/fundamentalist religion, Nazism, etc.). Nobody sets out to be evil, but are led off the right course by ignorance. Some of that ignorance stems from delusion caused by pride.

In this case, Iblis in that moment saw Allah as unjust, or making a mistake. That is, he stopped believing in Allah as a perfect being. He became a disbeliever, and lost faith in Allah.

Where before he saw the one god, now he saw a flawed being- either one which was a tyrant, or one which was good intentioned but foolish, and needed to be taught.

Both interpretations might be correct.

Based on his actions, it seems more like he believed that Allah was making a mistake- which may have stemmed from his pride and feelings of injustice, but ultimately with his positive feelings towards Allah channeling it into a belief that Allah was simply mistaken about mankind (instead of being unjust).

It's like a child who saw a parent as perfect, to be revealed a character flaw. This was crushing to Iblis- he felt distraught. It was that he lost faith in Allah- in what Allah was.

Remember, not even the Angels understood Allah's actions- and for good reason; the ultimate purpose of man is a secret Allah keeps. But the Angels had no free will (thus no faith to lose), and they obeyed.

Allah perhaps could have explained himself to Iblis- the otherwise inexplicable purpose of making mankind- but he did not. He wanted Iblis to have faith in him, even against all he knows.

Iblis faith was tested in the most extreme way, and he failed that test. He lost faith in Allah- instead of believing in him as a god, believing in him as a flawed being.

It's like Iblis saw Allah as Humpty Dumpty fallen off a wall- something which was broken and needed to be fixed (otherwise, why argue with him?).

Oh, but Allah was so stubborn! He wouldn't see reason! If Iblis could just prove to Allah that man was not worthy of Allah- then Allah would see.

Or, at least that's how Iblis probably would have seen it.

I think it would be an error to think that Iblis' love for Allah was lost- just as a child doesn't lose love for a parent when they realize their parents aren't perfect.

Iblis asked for respite to prove Allah wrong, and set Allah back on the right path for the universe. He's trying to help 'fix' Allah, because he sees Allah as that mistaken about mankind. To put things back the right way- the way they were.

How could disbelief be any more complete than believing you need to correct Allah?
That's not believing in Allah as he is- that's something else entirely.

In some senses, Iblis' actions may have noble intent- even though he risks hellfire (when he could have just gone along with it), he wants to fix Allah to the correct and right vision of the universe.
His sin was and remains disbelief in the true nature of Allah.
The way I see it is that Iblis should've known better given the position he was in. He didn't, he made his choices and what follows after is based on that. We could write books on what his motivations were, not saying it isn't interesting to read, but at the end of the day as far as Iblis should've had/have his chance at redemption goes...all we can say is he did, and he blew it.

More likely just loss of faith. It doesn't make any sense that Iblis would do that if he believed Allah was as he really is. Iblis is basically confused- perhaps he confused himself, as people so often do. This may stem from pride (making him unable to accept the reality of Mankind's value).

One thing to consider is this, though

Iblis may live to see Mankind achieve greatness that Jinn never did- perhaps because mankind is so limited, and need Allah to access the spiritual dimensions (unlike Jinn, more prone to drift from purpose because of the ease of doing so), that makes them more suited to become the universe Allah intended.

The nature of Allah's higher purpose for man (whatever that is), and mankind's unique suitability may some time just click for Iblis.

Just a thought. The realization that he was wrong, for Iblis, might be inevitable- the only question being whether he can overcome his momentum and stubbornness and see it; and that would have to be a choice based on his free will. And maybe that's why Allah granted him reprieve? So he could have time to come to see the error of his ways, and face the ultimate test.

Ah, long post. Sorry about that.
I see it as Iblis doing what he did regardless of what he knew Allah to be as one of the strongest examples of free choice, one that may point towards no matter who you are and what you know, you can still be a dumbass even when faced with the simple truth. Apologies for not writing in depth, there are a lot of things to discuss here and not sure I can go through all of them.

peace

mmkhan

I hope this topic isn't overdone, but I'm curious about this.

This is my basic understanding (please tell me if I am mistaken)

Iblis is Jinn
Jinn have free will
Therefore, Iblis has free will.

Peace,

Let me try answering your with the permission of my Lord .

As per my understanding "Iblis" is not a name. It is derived from the root "Ba Laam Seen" which means despair. You can another similar derivative of this in 3012. We both have been created to serve Allah alone 5156.

3012
3012 And the Day the Hour appears the criminals will be in despair.

Iblis in Adam story was a malak , he became Jinn because of not following Allah's order 1850. Malaaika is no other than the authorities/kings among Jinn. Malaaika is derived from root "Meem Laam Kaaf". You can notice the difference between human authorities/kings and Jinn authorities/kings is "malIkun" used for humans - 1879 and "malAkun" used for Jinn - 68. AlhamduliAllahi Rabbil A3alameena.

1879
1879 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every ship by force.

68
68 And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved.

Yes, we all have free will.

Without free will, a person would not be responsible for his or her actions
This would mean Allah would be responsible for the actions (as the creator of a being without free will)
Therefore, Angels' (or any other beings without free will, as such) actions are not their own responsibility, but the will and responsibility of Allah alone

Angels or malaaika also has free will .

Iblis does evil.
Allah is pure good, and thus can not be responsible for evil.
Following from 5 7 and 8, Allah can not be responsible for the actions of Iblis.
Therefore (confirming) Iblis must have free will (the curse Allah placed upon him could not remove his free will, as a special class of Jinn)

Correct! I agree.

Allah has promised that all may be forgiven if true repentence is sought before death (that is, except dying in a state of disbelief).
Following from this promise, Iblis could be forgiven if he truly repented and turned back to Allah and away from his evil ways, returning to true belief.
Iblis is not dead, but was granted respite from judgement by Allah until the end times.
Following from Iblis' free will, and the above, Iblis is able to and could make the choice to repent to Allah, and be forgiven.

I agree.

All of this seems fine until we arrive at the counter-point

Allah has decreed that Iblis will go to hell.

Don't know. So I will be -X as I have to understand what jahannam means first.

There are many potential contradictions and paradoxes created by this simple point.

Iblis must have free will, which means the possibility for him to repent must remain open (at least from his perspective). Telling him that he will not repent from a position of absolute knoweldge (knowing his own future), can do one of two things

A. It could destroy Iblis' free will (foreknowledge of his own future, committing him to it without choice). This, as per point #10 above, must be impossible.

B. Create a logical contradiction/paradoxical situation. Like traveling back in time and killing yourself. This is also impossible.

There is no other solution I can find to this.

You can see the similar case in 2102. These people follow the evil even after knowing their result. But the word jahannam is missing in 2102.

IMPORTANT Keep in mind that it may be fine for Allah to know what somebody's future is, as long as he doesn't tell them their own future. If you understand something about quantum physics, you can view free will like a probability wave function.

The particle doesn't have an exact position and velocity until you measure it (which can be compared to free will). At the point of measuring it, the wave is collapsed (determined).

As long as Allah keeps his foreknowledge seperate from the universe, the free will does not have to collapse. But by telling somebody in certain terms what choice they will make, it must collapse the free will, or create an impossible paradox.

SO, here I come to some new points

In order to retain free will, Iblis can not be told what choices he will make in the future.

I agree.

Iblis has access to the Quran.

I assume that you are referring to Iblis in Adam's case, if so, please your evidence is needed from alQuraan, as I don't have any.

Therefore, the part where Allah says that Iblis will go to hell must in some way have another interpretation, and not reveal Iblis' ultimate choice.

I don't think that way... as per my understanding, IF jahannum refers to punishment and torture in this life, then he agrees to accept it. And IF jahannum is referring to punishment after the Day of Judgement, then I don't think he is aware of that punishment , hence refuse to accept the command of Allah.

Following from points 14 and 15, if Iblis repents (as he must be permitted to do), he will be forgiven- but he will still go to hell even if he is forgiven.

I did not see any reason for this? hmm

The Quran provides some suggestion that (for believers) sometimes hell can be temporary.

Sorry, I disagree. Please bring evidence from alQuraan.

Therefore, the only apparent conclusion is if Iblis repents, he may go to hell temporarily, thus satisfying Allah's proclamation that he will go to hell, as well as avoiding contradiction with Iblis' free will and Allah's promise of forgiveness.

Again, I think, jahannum has to be understood... IF it is in this life, then many people may agree to be in there against power that they will be getting as Iblis.

Is there any support for this possibility in the Qur'an?

That is to say, Iblis has two options

A. Continue to do evil, and go to hell for eternity when he dies in disbelief.
B. Repent, and go to hell for a shorter time to pay for his sins, until Allah intercedes to save him.

But both options must remain open, and though Allah may know which Iblis will choose, he can not reveal that to Iblis (which means the Qur'an must not clearly reveal which will come to pass until it has already happened).

Sorry that was a lot of text. Please tell me if you think any of these points are mistaken.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

The Abdel Haleem translation I use most says "I swear I shall fill hell with you and all who follow you!" (71 If all who follow Iblis are sentenced to hell, because they will not repent, then isn't it simply saying that Iblis will be sent to hell if he keeps on doing the same thing.

The issue here though is that the Quran does also say that hearts can be sealed - it says how some will not return and there are references to and warnings about those whose hearts turn as hard as stone or harder. As this is used many places in the Quran, you'd have to check all of them to verify whether this means that some are on a path they've chosen from which they can't return because it is so damning and their hearts do not return to repentance because of this. i.e. their free will lead them there.

I've tried to give my contribution and its apparently fallen short of what you want Paper rain, but it others here are asking you the questions you want or saying the things that seem right to you. So I will leave my questions and comments off this thread 1. the style of response caused problems earlier 2. that all took up a lot of time that I could have used to say a bit more or just explore this topic for my own personal understanding.

Peace!

In addition to what I wrote here, I've had another glance through this thread and it epitomises a lot for me. Not about Paper rain or any member but what we are all doing or not doing. So no this is not a personal attack or about anyone. So please do not take it that way. It's a little off topic but what came to mind so I think we have to accept that human beings sometimes go "off topic".

The Quran is straightforward enough in many many places. Sometimes we want to take time and remain cautious on a topic and thats ok, in fact, I think that makes sense. However, the Quran has a beautiful simplicity about it that some people may or may not ignore. There are more 'complex' ideas - but again I don't think it requires us to dig and dig. Some research is necessary which can lead us to what is considered unconventional.

Most of all, if Allah swt tests us and the Quran contains tests in itself, then it seems strange to say that it is only those who follow knowingly follow corrupt hadith who have not tried to do what the Quran asks. The emphasis on co-operation, fairness to all and the way the Messengers and Believers were treated in the past - and people seeking evil and going against clear revelation were favoured above others. It all comes together, and competing and pitting this and that about what's within the Quran really does not seem to be one them. Discussions are fine yes, but that's something different.

Interestingly, the Prophets and other mentioned Believers don't really seem to be people who people are the time were supposed to learn anything in particular from other than they recite a message and they practice it. But still, I doubt the people at the time imitated Isa, or Muhammad, how would that help each of us learn our own individual lessons? Now that those generations have passed, we have a glimpse into the experiences and can understand a bit about the human experience, possibly. Once again, individuality is emphasised.

In terms of the message Age isn't what gives you an appreciation or understanding of the Quran, it seems to be much more a readiness to accept our own flaws and learn the Reminder. Most of all, it teaches us that our knowledge is from Allah swt and that He is the true Friend and Guide.

These are some musings, if you don't like them, then you don't have to read them.