The Iron
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Peace be within you, bro Mazhar
Incorrect approach in consulting the Lexicons will always yield an erroneous result. Each word of Arabic is distinct signifying singular meanings. Individual word's meanings are not derived by consulting all the meanings of few other words made from the same Root.
Thanks for the reminder, bro Mazhar. But in this case the sayings of men had distorted the verse when they implied and inserted their understanding that iron was send down from besides Allah to create the chain-mail for war (and many benefits for mankind).
Was it the sayings of men who relate the verse 5725 to the verse 3410-11 or is that from yourself? Yet in the verse 5725 there is no mention about chain-mail or about war. Referring to the other verses (3410-11) as implied does not help us to understand the Truth, especially if the verses referred to had no relationship whatsoever.
In the Book, Allah commanded us to always use our reasoning, our intellect which He bestowed upon mankind. I am certain that you are much much better than Abu Hurairah et al. Iron existed in the earth from the day He created the earth and the universe. And today He bestowed upon mankind the knowledge of making the best of steel and the lightest and hardest titanium, as an example. Did Allah send down magical iron from besides Him on the Throne? This is the kind of question I will ask myself when a verse does not make sense to me.
This is the verse, word for word translation, Arabic to English from corpus quran
5725 Certainly We sent Our Messengers with clear proofs and We send down with them the Scripture and the Balance that may establish the people justice. And We send down iron, wherein (is) power mighty and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident (he) who helps Him and His Messengers, unseen. Indeed, Allah (is) All-Strong All-Mighty.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=57&verse=25
As can be seen, there is no mention of chain-mail nor about war.
The verses you provided 3410-11 is specifically for Prophet David. Allah was telling the last Prophet that He had bestowed upon David, the knowledge in the making of chain-mail coat to be used during war, for righteousness. Just like Allah bestowed upon Noah the knowledge about building the ark.
The verse in discussion is about His Messengers, His proof, which He send down from besides Him. And this proof can be found within His Message and works as a Balance. Truth is the Criterion/ Balance between right and wrong, between good and evil, between a righteous man and a wrongdoer.
The verse is an explanation, an analogy, about the purpose of the Book, it is about the Truth that Allah send down within His Message which is to create the faith/ iman within our heart 4251-53. Understanding the purposes of the Book, that is acquiring the knowledge of the Truth from Him alone is more important than iron. In this analogy Allah is telling us that the faith/ iman is a binding which is stronger than iron. In our generations, we always understood that knowledge is power but when it comes to His Verses, most people relied on the sayings of men from centuries ago.
The opposite analogy to this verse is the verse about the spider's house 2941, the weakest of houses is surely the house of the spider. The guidance of Allah is the true guidance.
But as Allah said in His Book, to each his own, no other person, not even the nearest of kin can be a witness or be a defender to another. Only the faith/ iman/ the light of Truth, His proof within His Message shall be a witness against our own self.
Peace be within you.
tauhid101 -
Quote from Mazhar on Today at 021144 AM
Incorrect approach in consulting the Lexicons will always yield an erroneous result. Each word of Arabic is distinct signifying singular meanings. Individual word's meanings are not derived by consulting all the meanings of few other words made from the same Root.Thanks for the reminder, bro Mazhar. But in this case the sayings of men had distorted the verse when they implied and inserted their understanding that iron was send down from besides Allah to create the chain-mail for war (and many benefits for mankind).
Salam
This understanding is based upon your thoughts and by not accepting the declarative statement of Allah the Exalted. Pl listen Him
We have sent down the Iron.
The Pronoun which is the Subject of Verb is for First Person Plural-Sovereign singular. What hampers you to accept this simple statement?
The verb denotes sending or lowering some thing from an upper place towards a downward location.
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Peace be within you, bro Mazhar
Salam
This understanding is based upon your thoughts and by not accepting the declarative statement of Allah the Exalted. Pl listen Him
Excuse me..who post and relate the verse 5725 to the verses 3410-11 earlier?
And We have descended the Iron. Sturdy strong strength is its built-in characteristic feature; and profitableness for the people;
Earlier its another feature and use was disclosed
And it was made known for him that We have made the Iron pliable;
informing him "You make fully flexible armor coats; and measure proportionately in links of armor;I do hope you read all my earlier explanations. It was common sense and His guidance, bro Mazhar that Allah did not send down the iron, but He send down the revelations of the Truth, the Book, so that He will guide mankind and establish the faith/ iman with His Truth within ourselves, a bond/ binding stronger than iron.
Peace be within you.
tauhid101 -
Salam,
I am talking what Allah has said in simple and straight words in the Book. You are relying on your own philosophy. The Book is the guidance and it informs its audience about facts relating to his surroundings. Sending of Iron by Him to the Earth is just one such such fact.
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Peace be within you, bro Mazhar
Salam,
I am talking what Allah has said in simple and straight words in the Book. You are relying on your own philosophy. The Book is the guidance and it informs its audience about facts relating to his surroundings. Sending of Iron by Him to the Earth is just one such such fact.
When I said about common sense and His guidance, previously, I meant about using our reasoning, our own mind in connecting the relevant verses from the Book itself.
When Allah create something, He only said, "Be" and it is, He creates with His Word and His Will alone. I rearranged the verse, not based on my philosophy, but based on the knowledge of the Truth from His Books alone.
The Quran is His guidance book to follow, a guide about the Straight Path He prescribed and a guide about His previous Books. The Books and the Straight Path is His guidance for all mankind, a guidance to the Mother/ Source of His Book, the Al-Kitab, besides His Throne. The Mother/ Source of His Book is His words, His commands, His living words, because Allah is the Ever-Living God and He creates with His Word and Will alone.
His Messengers, who will carry down His word/message/command from the Mother/ Source of His Book is the Holy Spirit or the spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit or the spirit of Truth is the living word/message/command send down from besides His Throne by His permission alone, and guarded by the angels when it descended upon the heart of those whom He wills. The verse about Gabriel descended upon the heart of the Prophet had been changed. Allah sent down the Holy Spirit, His Message, upon the Prophet's heart and revealed the Truth. The faith/ iman within our heart is the bond between mankind and Allah that is stronger than iron. Be and it is, His word and His will, no iron involved.
The book which He promised to guard and will never change is the Mother/ Source of His Book, besides His Throne. But a book written, printed and digitized by men is certain to have discrepancies, biased towards a man-made doctrine. And I'm certain that Allah already knows this about the Quran. Let me show you another verse from the Quran which was changed by men, and very much related to the verse in discussion regarding "sent down";
396 He created you from a single soul. Then He made from it, its mate. And He sent down for you eight kinds of the cattle. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in three darkness. That is Allah your Lord, for Him is the Dominion. There is no god except Him. Then how are you turning away?
Whether it is translated into English or any other languages, this sentence, "And He sent down for you eight kinds of cattle." Does this mean that Allah sent down eight kinds of holy cattle as well, during our creation in the wombs?
Peace be within you.
tauhid101 -
Whether it is translated into English or any other languages, this sentence, "And He sent down for you eight kinds of cattle." Does this mean that Allah sent down eight kinds of holy cattle as well, during our creation in the wombs?
Ponder over it, the Ayah you referred. 1400 years back it was informed firstly to the residents of desert of Arabia that eight families of mammals are descended "for you people". Now ask in 21st century the experts as to how many families of mammals are there in the whole of the world? They will tell you; 9 families of mammals exist on the Earth.
The ninth family is that of Pig; descened not for you and me. For us there are only eight families of mammals. Guide book also informs about one's environment. Every manual has two parts. So is Qur'aan.
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Whenever I read and study His Books, I always put myself on His perspectives, not mine or the hadiths. He alone is the guide to the Straight Path and He alone has the Power and Authority to keep us on that Path, or to let us go astray. His guidance is the only true guidance.
Peace tauhid 101.Can you explain the meaning of that red word??
Excuse me..who post and relate the verse 5725 to the verses 3410-11 earlier?
Verses in the Quran is related each other.Some Quran verses need to be understand by reading the surrounding verses.
Example
- The meaning of auliya' in 551
551 O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies (awliya', for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people.
The meaning of awliya' allies, leader, helper, friend etc.But is this means we cannot take Jews and Nasrani to be our friends??
The answer is not, the criterion of Jews, Nasrani or another Kafirs who forbideen to be taken as awliya can be read in following 557.- The name of hell
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605613.0
Some people may mistakenly refer the word hiyah (she) in 10110 as a woman, but is we read the surrounding verses, we will know if it was referring to hell.
This situation is same for the word "saqara" (scorching heat) in 7428.- It's the more importantverse 2191.Yes if we're not looking the surrounding verses, then we will just end like the terrorist (picking one verse only to judge their action)
But if we reading the surrounding verses, we will knew if the context of 2191 is in state of war.
Now lets see the iron in verse 3410-11 and 5725
Verse 3410-11 using Daud as object, and Allah sent down the iron at that verses was used for chain mail, but is this the main purpose??Then let's see 5725
" We have sent Our messengers(rusulana) with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance, so that the people may
uphold justice. And We sent down the iron, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would
distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen. God is Powerful, Noble."REDOk the word "rusulana"/messengers is jamak taksir (irregular prural).So this means the mesenggers in that verse not only Muhammad but also others messengers.This means we cannot judge so easily if 5725 is in state of war or 600s war like Sunni mufassir's accusation.
BLUEThe purpose of the iron is sent down by Allah is to testing the people's faith on Him.Yes this is how Allah introduce and reminds us by showing the His signs (646, 697, 698 etc).This also answering the question of (3410-11)
So the conclusion is the purpose of Allah sent down the iron is for showing His signs and not just for softing it to create chain mail like in 34-11.
Peace
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Peace be within you, pak Earthdom
"I read and study His Books, I always put myself on His perspectives, not mine or the hadiths."
Peace tauhid 101.Can you explain the meaning of that red word??
When I read, study and reflect on His verses, I always ask Him, in my mind and heart, what was actually He wanted from all mankind. His Message is not just in the final Book but also within the Torah and the Gospel. And the reality which we see happening now, is because His Message had been divided into the three religions, three doctrines, three traditions, which our generations inherited.
Did God wanted this from all mankind? Did God wanted divisions among the mankind? What will be your answer when you observe from behind His Message, His perspective, and not from the perspectives of the three divided religions and their doctrines? Can you see the Truth which God wanted mankind to see and follow? It is not science and not philosophy, it is only your mind and your heart, which He created within us, the unseen. And His Message is His guidance so that we see the Truth of what He wanted from mankind.
Since you ask me, this is the way that I learned from experience, reading and studying all His Books, the Book of Truth (the Quran), the Gospel written by John and Thomas and the Torah (the old Testament) and no other books or articles.
Peace be within you.
tauhid101(PS kalau pak Earthdom lagi senang berdiskusi dalam bahasa, iya, PM aje, pak. Mau keluar dulu cari makan, lapar, belum bfast n lunch. udah jam 3 o)
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Peace tauhid 101.
"I read and study His Books, I always put myself on His perspectives, not mine or the hadiths."
QS 37 clearly answered
"...... ......"
"As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similatude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except Allah"Yes Quran is from Allah and it's best intepretation is also from Allah.The proof is there is no translations and inteprations of Quran by humans which appoarch 100% the real meaning or makna of the Quran.Allah only who capable to do this.
This so why we must keep seeking help from Allah to understand His messages.When I read, study and reflect on His verses, I always ask Him, in my mind and heart, what was actually He wanted from all mankind. His Message is not just in the final Book but also within the Torah and the Gospel. And the reality which we see happening now, is because His Message had been divided into the three religions, three doctrines, three traditions, which our generations inherited.
Since you ask me, this is the way that I learned from experience, reading and studying all His Books, the Book of Truth (the Quran), the Gospel written by John and Thomas and the Torah (the old Testament) and no other books or articles.
Peace
Yes looks like you still in struggle for searching the truth.I thinks it's normal for me if a person who still in steps or try to finding their God, they often try searching,studying many religious teks then do research on religious comparation.
Yes QS 4136 said if we must have iman to previous Kitabs, but it's only limited on their existence only.One of the purpose of Allah sent down to the Quran is to correcting the previous Kitabs (Torah, Injil etc) according to verse 381, 447 etc.This means the syari'a of Quran and the previous Kitabs is different.The example is the story of Adam in the Quran and Book of Genesis is different.
SO the Quran is only our guidance book (7750)Yes in spare time, I often reading Old-New Testament, but just for to know the other religion's teaching, story of Prophets (it's little bit interesting hehehe like reading a comic), but I'm not take that books for the source of aqidah.
Btw from where you get Book of Thomas, is there any Indonesian translation??
(PS kalau pak Earthdom lagi senang berdiskusi dalam bahasa, iya, PM aje, pak. Mau keluar dulu cari makan, lapar, belum bfast n lunch. udah jam 3 )
Ok boss.Sebenarnya kemaren saya juga belum breakfast hehehe.Saya juga sudah lihat post2 bapak di sini dan sepertinya menarik karena bapak paham tentang Torah dan bahasa Ibrani.
Ya kalau ada kepentingan saya akan PM anda.Oh ya ngomong2 bapak dari mana? Malaysia atau Indonesia??Soalnya bapak bisa bahasa malaysia dan logat betawi (seperti PM aje)?? hmm -
Peace be within you, pak Earthdom
Maaf banyak-banyak, pak, for late reply; sibuk kerja harian di pejabat dan kerja personal ;D
Regarding 37..none know its interpretation except Allah.
Allah alone is my Teacher for the Truth; like the verse said, only He knows the interpretation. I acknowledge and accepted Him as the Ever-Living God, watching over us all the time, even now in this forum; and at the same moment He is also watching over His creations at the edge of the universe, sustaining them, He is the All-Mighty, the All-Knower, the Most Merciful. Allah alone is my Sovereign, the Power and the Authority. Ask, and He is nearer to us than our veins. How do you view or perceive Him, as in 2255?I have been reading and studying all His Books for more than 20years, and still doing them today. Only last year I started learning the classical Hebrew.
The Gospel written by Thomas could be read at this link http//www.thenazareneway.com/thomasgospel.htm
Saya dari Borneo Utara, pak Earthdom. Masa dulu banyak nonton filem Indonesia, ndak tau pula ada logat betawi ;D
Dari daerah mana logat betawi tu, pak Earthdom?Peace be within you
tauhid101 -
Peace tauhid 101.
Maaf banyak-banyak, pak, for late reply; sibuk kerja harian di pejabat dan kerja personal
Ga papa.Dalam situs jejaring sosial manapun termasuk di forum ini, biasa saja kok kejadian seperti bapak.Kebanyakan orang2 sibuk jadi kadang nge-replynya tertunda bahkan lama sekali.Yah pada akhirnya lebih enak diskusi di dunia nyata daripada di dunia maya.
The Gospel written by Thomas could be read at this link http//www.thenazareneway.com/thomasgospel.htm
Thanks for the link, I will research it.
Saya dari Borneo Utara, pak Earthdom. Masa dulu banyak nonton filem Indonesia, ndak tau pula ada logat betawi
Dari daerah mana logat betawi tu, pak Earthdom?Oh Sabah-Sarawak.
Logat Betawi itu miliknya etnis Betawi, mereka umumnya tinggal di provinsi DKI Jakarta.Nah kebanyakan produser film2 Indonesia berpusat di Jawa Barat dan DKI Jakarta begitu juga artis-artisnya.
Jadi ketika lihat film2 atau sinetron2 di Indonesia selalu dijumpai lugat betawi ato lebih luasnya lugat Jakarta seperti lu (kamu), gue (saya), abang (mas), aje (aja), kalo (kalau) dsb.Saya orang Jawa,berbahasa Jawa tidak pernah pakai logat seperti itu.
Peace be within you
Earthdom