shahada
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Peace Zulf,
As long as you can keep a healthy balance between simply an organization and religion this is not a negative concept. What differentiates a sect and simple religious organization is that a sect has created religious practices and compulsory rules never authorized by God. This is what a sect is. As long as an organization is simply about worshiping/serving God it cannot fail, but when it starts with vain conjecture is when things go wrong. God's religion is, as we so-called Quran alone already know, very simple to follow and only a few things divide us and only on minor points. Ramadhan and prayers are the main problems, the rest is just irrelevant.
Had it not because of interpretation difficulties of Quran's ancient Arabic we would not have these problems, but I am sure that we can solve this with a bit of honesty and devotion. The Quran was probably dead-easy to interpret 1400 years ago, but sectarian islam has gradually biased the meanings of the old Arabic words that they connote something different. This is why a new scripture or explaining Messenger would be in order who can interpret it independent of linguistic changes.
Jesus came to interpret and elaborate on the mosaic law, so why not another one to thoroughly explain Quran? What puzzles me is so many people are absolutely certain that there is utterly never going to be another lonely warrior, a mercy from the Lord showing up on the face of the Earth once again.
Also in Bible it was prophesied that no more Messenger would come around. It could be merely an interpretive error which cause the masses to believe God would never send a Messenger again.
Have you ever realized that a gang of crazy clergymen have had access to Quran and the exclusive right to interpret it for a thousand years, so why are you so certain that the Quran talks about the absolute end of Messengers? It seems like naivety. Instead pray that there would come for one to set things straight again. To help us solve the simple but dividing disputes we are having.
My motto goes "Everything is possible, nothing is impossible".
God bless you
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Peace Zulf,
As long as you can keep a healthy balance between simply an organization and religion this is not a negative concept. What differentiates a sect and simple religious organization is that a sect has created religious practices and compulsory rules never authorized by God. This is what a sect is. As long as an organization is simply about worshiping/serving God it cannot fail, but when it starts with vain conjecture is when things go wrong. God's religion is, as we so-called Quran alone already know, very simple to follow and only a few things divide us and only on minor points. Ramadhan and prayers are the main problems, the rest is just irrelevant.
Isn't the idea of consensus exactly that of distinguishing from Our views vs Other's views? How do you have consensus and different views at the same time? Either we don't have consensus, or only those who subscribe to the defined set of beliefs can be allowed in the group. It's either or. That is very near to compulsion.
All sects already believe they are "simply worshiping/serving God". Nobody will admit to practice conjecture.
Had it not because of interpretation difficulties of Quran's ancient Arabic we would not have these problems, but I am sure that we can solve this with a bit of honesty and devotion. The Quran was probably dead-easy to interpret 1400 years ago, but sectarian islam has gradually biased the meanings of the old Arabic words that they connote something different. This is why a new scripture or explaining Messenger would be in order who can interpret it independent of linguistic changes.
But then the question is whether we believe the quran is for all time or outdated. Doesn't it claim to be clear, written in an eloquent tongue? If that only applied close to its time of revelation, then we can start dismissing many other things aswell as being archaic and not valid anymore.
The question is, what is needed to being guided by the quran. Is it language or is it al Huda from God? Are the difficulties because of the language or because of our blindness?
Also, when God speaks about completing his blessing on us, does that mean the quran won't cut it anymore, or that we have all we need in terms of external sources of guidance?Jesus came to interpret and elaborate on the mosaic law, so why not another one to thoroughly explain Quran? What puzzles me is so many people are absolutely certain that there is utterly never going to be another lonely warrior, a mercy from the Lord showing up on the face of the Earth once again.
Also in Bible it was prophesied that no more Messenger would come around. It could be merely an interpretive error which cause the masses to believe God would never send a Messenger again.
The readers of the quran believe it partly because of the expression "seal of the prophets". Partly it is also because ALL religions insist that theirs is the final and best and truth. That's just a matter of egoic protection of identity... a mental, though unconscious, survival tactics.
Have you ever realized that a gang of crazy clergymen have had access to Quran and the exclusive right to interpret it for a thousand years, so why are you so certain that the Quran talks about the absolute end of Messengers? It seems like naivety. Instead pray that there would come for one to set things straight again. To help us solve the simple but dividing disputes we are having.
Personally I will not pray for someone else to come and save me... that's too much like christianity. Man kind cannot be forced into goodness. Allah will let those who stray have all the means to do so. We are here to show our real selves through our actions. We are not here to be able to hide behind a good leader pretending to be good ourselves. The truth must out, and Allah will let us go in any direction we choose. For those who are guided and seek God and goodness, there is really no need for any more external guidance in terms of books and what not. A book or a leader will not be able to save us. We can only save ourselves. If we are really on the straight path, then language and distortion won't be a real issue. We all have capacity to sense what's right and wrong within. This is easy when we shed our fears and let go of being ruled by our mind patterns. God say we should not fear anything but God. This is not some intellectual talk, rather it is extremely practical beyond what we usually understand. When you start getting to know a fragment of the grandness and mercy of God, then there is no need for any fears. This is peace, and you will no need books and messengers.
We should not pray for crutches, for assistance between us and God. We should pray straight to God for direct guidance and purification. What else do we need? Don't we trust God to give us this? Really really? We should pray to God for a pure understanding of the quran and life. Can God give us that? Or rather, can we receive that? Where is the weak link? Isn't that weak link us? How will another prophet then save us, if it is our blindness that is the problem?That's how I think of it.
Peace and cheers!My motto goes "Everything is possible, nothing is impossible".
I really like that motto!
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bismillaahi_r_rahmaani_r_rahiym
In the last couple of years I have encountered an aspect of faith that seemed really alien to me at first, declarations. Here at Bethel Church they are firm believers in the power of declaration and if I am honest it has taken me a while to get my head round it. What do I mean by declarations? Great question, I have come to understand declarations as speaking out truth over my life or speaking out loud what I want to see happen. My initial reservations were mainly due to a misunderstanding of what this looked like. I did not want to be the sort of person who just said positive things that felt empty or untrue. Something in the DNA of a Scot rejects strongly the idea of being a hypocrite! As I have learnt more and understood however my eyes have been opened to the weight that our words carry and the power of declarations
Read more
http//thewholerealm.com/2013/02/26/the-power-of-declarations/#more-1023
Peace -
Peace Zulf,
Well. In a way that reasoning is right, but with an honest heart one can see that the sectarian belief system is tainted by external sources and superstition. It is true that no one will admit it and Quran talks about it too that they say "but we are guided". Hypocrisy is the English term or "skenhelig" as I like to put it in Swedish which I prefer. Can you not see contradiction in the worship practices of the sectarian people if you compare it to Quran?
The Quran boasts the things you wrote, but that is not its fault but man. Our twisting of words has left it difficult to interpret while it should not be. The Book is timeless, but it is also of course written so that it suits an audience 1400 years ago. Its direct target is the contemporary people living back then to most extent, this is an undeniable fact interpreting the passages I think. We have to make a distinction. While it speaks directly addressing these people we might also be affected because we are of the same religion since the Message and commandments have been the same all the time except a very few cases where God has adjusted things such as sex during Ramadhan nights for example. I am suspecting that Ramadhan itself it also misunderstood but since I do not know better I am still fasting this month per year because I am afraid that my doubts may be wrong.
It is dangerous to reason that we need external sources to interpret Quran and even the mere usage of dictionaries, but these are still better than hearsay since you can interpret more yourself.
I only pray to God to send a Messenger to clarify what I know wrong since God does not show Himself not to spoil His test. However, the Messenger can be an angel/controller too. I do not mind. Or a particularly blessed man who later is revealed to have been a secret Messenger. Angels come disguised as men too so you need to keep your perception at maximum.
I believe in blessed men and so on. So a man can save us but only through God's grace. God sometimes works His marvels through ordinary men as you can see in history. It did not necessarily end a millennium ago.
The signs or Messengers alone do not save us but God.
You are right. We need neither. It is a slight egotistical thought that it would be comfortable to not have any doubts that I misinterpret the Book. I surely can reach Heaven without them if I persevere and work righteousness.
I like your myriad of different angles which is the trait of a free-minded person. God bless you
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Salam, I have a question about shahada.
When I reverted to islam I took the standard sunn7 shahada that included the prophets name, is my shahada witnessed by Allah swt? Or valid at all. Is there a way that I can correct this, if so please comment on information from Quran, for emample the number of witnesses
Much thanks and salamSalaam,
Please take a look at this thread, inshaAllah, it will help you.
May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan -
Peace,
I find the shahada ceremony to be a good occasion, wonderful to see someone who verifies
that they are muslim. My niece took shahada two years ago, many family members were
present, my nephew conducted the ceremony (minus the Muhammad part), afterwards
we celebrated, everyone was happy. It was a great occasion. Those who did not want
to participate stayed away. Of course God is witness of all things and if one is alone then
God is sufficient.There was another time another family member inquired about shahada but declined
before the ceremony because of doubt. Masha'allahGod bless
peace
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Salam, I have a question about shahada.
When I reverted to islam I took the standard sunn7 shahada that included the prophets name, is my shahada witnessed by Allah swt? Or valid at all. Is there a way that I can correct this, if so please comment on information from Quran, for emample the number of witnesses
Much thanks and salamSalam my sister,
All human actions, statements, and thoughts are witnessed by GOD; The All-knowing / All-hearing. Thus, GOD is (indeed) aware of your testimony; however ... see 12106; 2165; The correct (monotheistic) "Shahada" in the sight of GOD is to be found in the Qur'an, Surah 3 Verse 18; which states the following
GOD bears witness that there is no Divinity but HE - and (so do) the angels and the owners of knowledge - standing up for justice; there is no Divinity but HE, The Mighty, The Wise.
As you can see, there is no "Muhammad rasulullah" in the Qur'anic Shahada. Further, including " " in the verse does in no way mean they are included in the shahada; rather it denotes that THIS (i.e. The Shahada of ALLH) is also the testimony of the angels and the knowledgeable among us. Note that GOD repeated " " TWICE! This confirms that there is no place for the name of "Muhammad" (pbuh) in the "monotheistic" Shahada. and GOD Almighty knows best.
PS I declare the shahada several times a day.
Hope this helps.
SLM -
The Quran boasts the things you wrote, but that is not its fault but man. Our twisting of words has left it difficult to interpret while it should not be. The Book is timeless, but it is also of course written so that it suits an audience 1400 years ago. Its direct target is the contemporary people living back then to most extent, this is an undeniable fact interpreting the passages I think.
You claim that the "Quran boasts the things you wrote, but that is not its fault but man". The author of the Quran is Allah (glorified is He). The implication is that Allah boasts of things that He can not deliver on because of the actions of mankind. That is unacceptable. Allah has perfect foresight, and He knew exactly what mankind would do. He is not bound by time, waiting to find out what happens, like we are.
The audience of the Quran is mankind and jinn. It does seem like some verses are more relevant to different people at different times - some of the assertions about the natural world were not verifiable by mankind until recent breakthroughs in technology occurred for example - but still, the Quran is always a clear and complete guide, and that will never be any less true than it was when the Quran was revealed. It's just that not every verse was meant to be fully appreciated by every recipient.
It's worth remembering that none of us even manage to do the basic stuff in practice. Is there anyone here who couldn't spend more time worshipping Allah, who couldn't do a bit more for people less fortunate than themselves, who never fails in any obligations... We all know enough about Islam to know that there are a lot of things we could do to be better Muslims, and we know exactly what they are, so we have more than adequate guidance for our individual needs. Once a person practices the core of Islam so perfectly that they need to understand the more complex aspects of the theology to be able to improve, I have absolute faith that they will not find the Quran lacking.
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You don't need any rituals to convert Islam, nor do you need to read the "shahada." God knows your heart, and He knows if you are indeed His servant. You don't need to correct the shahada anyway, for even if you did read it, God knows if you're a de facto monotheist. Right, you now know God, and you know that you shall serve God and God alone. You should be aware, and uphold God's limits, so you will not become a de facto polytheist.
Sad thing is, billions of people have fallen for this scam known as "conversion". You cannot convert someone to the right path. You can't guide yourself or another human. Islam, Christianity, Judaism and all religions seek to passing your beliefs to your children so they become "good practicing " and reach their imaginary paradise.
You cannot make someone become self-aware. This is what religion fails to understand. The Gods of religion is an illusion. It is an imaginary God, their ego. That's what they're enslaved to and worship. Religion provides them with the illusion of righteousness. Label(Muslim, Jew, Christian), uniform(burqa, thobe, head-cover, skull cap etc), food(halal/kosher), a savior(Muhammad, Jesus and JesusV2), list of prohibitions(pork, alcohol, clothing, music, having a dog, nail polish, whistling, dying hair, eating with left hand etc), daily rituals to an idol(cube idol in Mecca, Wailing wall in Jerusalem, Jesus on the Cross, forgiving black stone etc) and holy books(hadith, Talmud, Bible)
After hijacking The Reading(Quran), the cult of Islam must have missed these two verses.
" you cannot guide whomever you love, but The GOD guides whomever He wants and knows best those who seek guidance." (2856)
"And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from The GOD's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie."(6116) -
You claim that the "Quran boasts the things you wrote, but that is not its fault but man". The author of the Quran is Allah (glorified is He). The implication is that Allah boasts of things that He can not deliver on because of the actions of mankind. That is unacceptable. Allah has perfect foresight, and He knew exactly what mankind would do. He is not bound by time, waiting to find out what happens, like we are.
Surprisingly, Quran never actually claims to be a "holy book". "This is the utterance of an honorable messenger." (6940)
The Reading(Quran) is simply a physical copy of what is within us(ruh). Quran is a piece of knowledge from The Source Of Knowledge(The GOD). Only those who are self-aware can make use of this piece of knowledge. Anyone else i.e the unaware, it will lead them astray.
" And what has been sent down to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in insolence and unbelief" (564)
"you cannot guide whomever you love, but The GOD guides whomever He wants and knows best those who seek guidance." (2856)Unaware souls cannot make use of their senses. "The GOD has sealed their hearts and hearing and their vision is veiled; a great punishment awaits them."(27) hence this piece of knowledge(Quran) is useless to them. They do not have the ability to understand it.
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I wrote that in 2013, csmith. The Holy Spirit made Quran written I know now 2016.
My argument that Quran was aimed at an audience 1400 years ago was an apologetic excuse for my ignorance of what Quran allegedly says. Today I know that Quran's traditional interpretation is all but good. Wiser now I would tend to fall towards saying the Manifestation (Quran) is timeless, not even aimed at an audience 1400 years ago, and not even 1 year ago I would be bold to say because no one has been able to interpret it.
Quran reveals quite some many things that have happened in between. For example, it reveals that the two famous commandments were corrupted and the third commandment exaggerated.
Well, that depends on the interpreter.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Salaam Amenuel,
Sorry. My bad. I didn't see the date. There are a bunch of posts in the forum that promote views that are totally at odds with Islam. I spent a couple of days pushing back on them, just trying to bring a bit of discipline to the forum. I guess I got a bit carried away. Your post wasn't so bad, and was years ago.
Again sorry. Best,
Carl -
Well, in general, csmith, my arguments are quite controversial in a traditional Islam religious perspective. It is up to the reader to evaluate what I say.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Salaam Amenuel,
I've seen enough of your posts to get a general feel for your beliefs, and though I don't share your perspective, you do seem to be making reasonably educated, intelligent arguments, and they do seem to respect the Quran on the whole. Other people have posted stuff that ignores the Quran on pretty basic points. It was those posts I was really responding to. One of your posts just got caught up in that effort.
It's great that this site entertains heterodox opinions, but I feel strongly that we need to enforce some boundaries, even if they are only organically enforced and only loosely defined. Otherwise, the noise levels will drown out the signal, and it'll become so laborious to read through a thread that people will just not bother. Frankly, a movement like ours aught to have a higher quality forum than we have.
Peace,
Carl -
It's great that this site entertains heterodox opinions, but I feel strongly that we need to enforce some boundaries, even if they are only organically enforced and only loosely defined. Otherwise, the noise levels will drown out the signal, and it'll become so laborious to read through a thread that people will just not bother. Frankly, a movement like ours aught to have a higher quality forum than we have.
Greetings Carl,
Those boundaries you're speaking of, aren't those simply the forum rules, i.e. manners plus staying on topic?
I seriously doubt that the noise level could be much lower without having a too strict control on what's allowed to write. Also, people, being human beings, are prone to be under the influence of emotions. Typically, this is what is giving rise to noise. People will always be people. Some will communicate in a factual and balanced manner, while others will automatically and emotionally react to all stimuli.
I don't think our forum is that bad at all, compared to many other forums. Of course, there is always space for improvement, but I don't find this forum to be of low quality at all.
If I may ask, how would we enforce boundaries, in your opinion.
Kind regards
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Csmith,
Sure you do not have to share my perspective either, but it might be wise to consider everything or be stuck in a tunnel-vision.
Concerning what I utter I do not do it unfounded but there is a huge deal of time spent researching.
My "shahada" is although quite different from the typical person who adheres to Quran. For many people it is as if I do not adhere to Quran at all because I somehow found another book when I began to study it more closely. One way or another I think of not even challenging the traditional understanding but instead bring forth logical and rational alternative input. I can let traditionally inclined Muslims be and aim for people who like to widen their horizon.
Besides my deviant view of Rabb I stick to the traditional abstention from the world common in religions but for slightly different reasons. To me the whole World including other very bodies is just not our true nature but our selves are somehow symbiotically merged with Rabb as we gain our independent awareness in Rabb. The World was created as a kind of test environment. This view is heretical in Islam I know, but at least I am not dishonest. And it is my work on deciphering Quran that has led me to this view.
I see signs in (among poor translations of) Torah and Injeel with these famous quotes
"Man was created in His image"
"I am who am I"
"I am in the Father and the Father in me"
God and conscious (independent) creations are not separate but in symbiosis. You dwell within the consciousness of Rabb and your ascension to independent awareness makes you be alive. In fact my translation of the word Allah is 'Who Is', i.e easily said "Who Is alive" or "who exists". Unless you are one in Allah you do not exist. That does not make you even equal to Rabb in greatness, but you at least exist as a portion of the "Grand Consciousness" rather than a lifeless "automated" beast. Problem for common man is blindness from realizing this condition. A hint is how predictable you are in behavior. Try to see how often your behavior follows psychological studies. This is when Satan comes in, the body's instinct. Satan is that "automation". Satan causes blindness and incognizance.
Be safe
Amenuel