Jahiliyah in verse 33:33
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Dear brother mohf.
Can you please tell me how you are linking 2431 with 3333 ? They are talking about two totally different subjects ?
I think I already explain this multiple times in previous posts.
In first case, just look around in the Quran where the same root word is used.
By just looking same roots, it's not enough to intepretate Quran.We also need dictionaries to dechiper it unless you're mastering vocabularies of Arabic.
In the second case, it is completely interpretation-dependent. Why not look at the part that is not interpretation dependent?
Quranic verses is dependent each other, we must intepretate a verse by relating it looking surrounding verses for knowing it's contex.
It's like you intepre 2191, it's very dangerous if we abandoning abandoning another verses. -
Peace Earthdom,
I think this is the complete context, it applies to the wives of the prophet
O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution
will be doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.Any one of you who obeys GOD and His messenger, and leads a righteous life,
we will grant her double the recompense, and we have prepared for her a generous provision.O wives of the prophet, you are not the same as any other women, if
you observe righteousness. (You have a greater responsibility.) Therefore, you shall
not speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts may get the wrong ideas;
you shall speak only righteousness.You shall settle down in your homes, and do not mingle with the people excessively,
like you used to do in the old days of ignorance. You shall observe the Contact Prayers
(Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and obey GOD and His messenger. GOD
wishes to remove all unholiness from you, O you who live around the Sacred Shrine, and
to purify you completely.These verses are clearly directed at the wives of the prophet as an example for believing
women to follow.Jahilliyah refers to a time of the one's old culture when a person was not aware of the proper
behavior and etiquette required by God.God bless
peace
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Peace brother hawk99.(sorry for late reply cause some businnes)
Thanks for your answer and yes you're true if that verses is applicable to all muslim women not only Muhammad's wife.But I still not have some clear think, because if the verse such like 3333 aplicated to all muslim women then how about ( and let you remain in your home).Is this means all muslim womans must stay in home??
Yes according to hadith teology, the term "jahiliyah" refer to Quraish or Meccan Arab's behavior just before Muhammad's era.But what I want to know is the intepretation of "Jahiliyah" from different appoarch.
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Peace earthdom,
I am very busy lately (thank God for that) but I will give you a short answer and I hope
that it helps33/33 instructs the believing women to abandon the ways of those who do not know
Jahiliyah
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Being nosy (worrying what other people are doing)
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Away from the home unneccesarily
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Gossip
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Neglect home duties
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Male friends
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Backbiting
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Instigating
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Partying
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Provocative clothes
Confinement to the home is for loose women and women who are convicted of adultery
Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses
against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women
in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.This is different from women who have done nothing wrong. Why would a woman be
confined to her home who is innocent and who has done nothing wrong be treated
the same as an adulteressTo settle down in your home infers that one's home is to be the focus of the woman's
attention, she can work, go to school, attend events, visit family and friends, drive, but not
to the extent of neglecting her home, like during the days of Jahiliyah. The prophets wives
are the example but live under a different restrictive set of rules because of their position.A world leader's wife has to live differently than us common folk, such is the lives of the
wives of the messenger of God.God bless
peace
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I agree generally with Wakas reading of 33.33 and wholly with the basical aim of the aya. It is a good analysis. Thanks.
What is what they did in the jahiliya? The Qur'an itself says it and very insistently. It says tabarrajna tabarruja,
Yusuf Ali translates it as dazzling display, but it is more than that, it is extreme soaking of attention over oneself. One obviously does not do that in the own home, unless it is a public place, like a royal palace. One needs to go outside to parade the own social or political standing. The injonction is addressed to the wives of the prophet. To infer from that that all women or believing women are alluded, would mean that all women are married to prophets. No. The prophet's wives had a social and moral standing over other women, the same as the prophet had a standing over the other males, that is why they would be able to "tabarrajna tabarruja". Other women could not do that because they did not have that standing. Standing and popularity are the attributs of eminent people. A cleaning woman would not have much to dazzle others in that sense.
This, I think, is universally appplicable to any case where one uses his or her high standing to parade it and show off and not as a means of serving society which would be the reason for any standing at all. It is a call in fact to anybody who would be him or herself dazzled by their own "achievement" becoming somebody outstanding in society.
That is, in this case the women would not be merely trying to catch attention to their beauty or attractiveness, like in the "yubdina" of 24.31, but would be using an already acquired notoriousness as important people in society to vainly make people look up at them and make themselves object of popular tribute or homage on account of their standing.
It indicates that that was what the notable women of the jahiliya did make others feel their own importance, their superiority, as over the rest of the people or the rest of the women.
Salaam
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Peace hawk99
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Partying
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Provocative clothes
Point 8 I don't know exactly for this.Is the term "partying" has negative conotation in the USA?? I think it's okay if we do party as long as we aren't do something unQuranic.
Point 9 This is what I want to discuss know.
The term "Provocative clothes", each regions and cultures will have different standart regarding this.
Like I said in previous post, it will refer back to verse2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent,"
Example is dress like bikini.In Islamic country like Yemen, Iran, this kind of dress labeled as "Provocative clothes"
But in the rural tribes like in Africa, South America, Oceania etc, this kind of clothes is already part of their daily
life.Then how we know the standart of provocatice clothes or except what is apparent accoding to the Quran is by knowing first what is jahiliyah in 33;33.
peace earthdom, all,
For 3333 I strongly recommend
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600548.msg250939#msg250939Peace Wakas
Thanks for providide that link.What I questioning currently Is verse 3330-33 only applicable for Phrophet's wive's only??
Because the object of that verse is "Nisaa al Nabi/ "It's different with verse 24;31, the object is "female believer/", and it's indicate if this verse is appllicable to all female believer.
Or verse 3359 which use object
"to wives, and daughters and wives of believers"If verse 3330-33 only applicable to Phrophet's wives, then it will contrary to your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-confined-to-houses.htm.
Because you used verses of Mary to relate it with verse 3333 and Mary didn't included in Phrophet's wives (read 1920).Plus if verse 3333 really only appllicable to Phrophet's wives then I will not confusing jahiliyah again.
The second is your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm, only talking about refutation against traditionalist's dress code not woman's dress code according to the Quran
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Point 8 I don't know exactly for this.Is the term "partying" has negative conotation in the USA?? I think it's okay if we do party as long as we aren't do something unQuranic.
Peace Earthdom,
I did not make myself clear by simply stating "partying". It would be more accurate to
say "Party lifestyle". In the USA there are people who live the party lifestyle, were
drugs and alcohol play a major part, to them nothing is more important than getting high
and being responsible to no one. Nothing wrong with a party!Point 9 This is what I want to discuss know.
The term "Provocative clothes", each regions and cultures will have different standart regarding this.
Like I said in previous post, it will refer back to verse2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent,"
Example is dress like bikini.In Islamic country like Yemen, Iran, this kind of dress labeled as "Provocative clothes"
But in the rural tribes like in Africa, South America, Oceania etc, this kind of clothes is already part of their daily
life.Then how we know the standart of provocatice clothes or except what is apparent accoding to the Quran is by knowing first what is jahiliyah in 33;33.
You have answered correctly when you stated
" each regions and cultures will have different standart regarding this."
Modesty is culturally bound, I as an American know what modest dress looks like in
my culture, same for other citizens in other cultures.Then how we know the standart of provocatice clothes or except what is apparent accoding to the Quran is by knowing first what is jahiliyah in 33;33.
So yes one must first define what modesty is.
God bless
peace
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peace,
If verse 3330-33 only applicable to Phrophet's wives, then it will contrary to your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-confined-to-houses.htm.
Because you used verses of Mary to relate it with verse 3333 and Mary didn't included in Phrophet's wives (read 1920).I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
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peace,
I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
Yes I do recommend reading the analysis contained in that thread given by Wakas. It is a meritorious detailed work. We should avail of it.
Salaam
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So yes one must first define what modesty is.
God bless
peace
Most definitely it should be defined estrictly as to the question at hand.
For the purposes here, I do think that posters should specify what kind of modesty they are talking about, because in English there seems to be two completely different meanings e3ndclosed into that word, which in Spanish, concretely, there are two very different specific words.
To uillustrate what I mean
"Modestia"
is akin tohumility, it is not being self assuming, not to boast, be unassuming, be discreet about one's own attainments in whatever field or sense.
"Pudor"
has to do with sexual mores, a prudent guarding, self-respecting attitude, not being overpowering overimposing or exhibitious, bein discreet in sexual sense.
The two things are completely different.
The opposite of the first is vanity
The opposite of the second is indecency.
In that sense, if the 4.31 was about "pudor", the great lecture should have been given to males, and not to females. Because the looks many men throw about, the speach, the attitudes, have nothing to so with modesty, they are offensive in themselves. And in fact they are indeed warned in 24.30 whent hey are told to guard their intimate parts, and "guard" is a much wider meaning that cover. Cover to guard, but the guarding goes much beyond merely covering them. It means the whole thing of using them with the consciousness of God. On that count, women and men get the same injonctions.
But in 24.31 women get further advise and as far as I can judge that advise has to do mostly with
"modestia"
and with
"pudor",
only ancillaryly
to the extent in which vanity of women rests on their physical attractiveness, since in most environments, even today, women means of attaining social significance owe very muh to their physical attractiveness, be it thorugh marriage, be it through their hability to win "hearts" with their beauty more in working or other environments, than with their talent and society's penchant to value women through their physical attractiveness more than through their talents. And women?s beauty, whether contrived, like make up or jewelry, or natural, includes their bottoms, bossom, hips and so on, even without sexual content, those parts are greatly appreciated as beuty attributes. Women are quite capable of appreciating other women's beauties, for instance, and to be jeallous of them, without any hint of sexual arising.
In 24.31 what happens is that precisely they are warned about falling into that trap. They should guard themselves from the physical attributes to delude them to misdirect their efforts or miscalculate as to the way they are appreciated. In fact what that aya is saying is the same as the "hijabists" blame on the "west", that it exploits women's bodies, which is true, but of course the solution they propose is the opposite and as demeaning for women as the "west"'s misuse in that they make modesty eclusively and narrowly as "pudor" and tributary to male's whimsical requirements and not as a careful and loving injunction from the Creator to women to not fall into being reduced to their body, be it through valuing it as a hook, "westlike", be it through devaluing it as somebody else's territory "hijabwise". In that sense hijab is males marking of territory, like the dogs' pee. Women should reject both castrations as derogatory of their dignity as God's direct servants, without intermediaries nor self-appointed watchers or guards.
God's directs the Prophet to say this directly to the believing women, without going through the intermediary of any male. It is very offensive that males make the appearance of women their own business. It is not. The business they should make their own, is clearly what they are told in 24.30. Mostly they do not give a damn about it, but there millions of web and printed pages boring everybody with tirades about women's clothing.
Stop being women watchers, for God sake. (This of course is directed to those who act like that, not indeed, to the very much appreciated brothers in the forum or elsewhere who in fact are great companions and are as bothered as any woman by this parallel devaluation of their sister's femaleness and of their own maleness, which reduces them to some animal like wrtech. Hopefully, and God willing together we will get somewhere for the good of all)
Salaam
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Peace everyone
Yusuf Ali translates it as dazzling display, but it is more than that, it is extreme soaking of attention over oneself. One obviously does not do that in the own home, unless it is a public place, like a royal palace. One needs to go outside to parade the own social or political standing.
Sister, do you know the meaning of tabarujja?
Usage and meaning of tabarujja is ornate, primp, using cosmetics, beauty showcased etc..
So the contexs of tabarujja (show off) in 3333 is not about stay in home, show off in public place or something, but about woman's style in dress and make up.Btw one of the subject which I want to discuss is "What kind of drees and make up styles according to the Koran so that woman has not be categorized into "jahiliyah"??
The prophet's wives had a social and moral standing over other women, the same as the prophet had a standing over the other males, that is why they would be able to "tabarrajna tabarruja". Other women could not do that because they did not have that standing. Standing and popularity are the attributs of eminent people. A cleaning woman would not have much to dazzle others in that sense.
So this mean verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
Modesty is culturally bound, I as an American know what modest dress looks like in
my culture, same for other citizens in other cultures.Peace brother I want to ask question.
Is dressing like bikini, lady gaga or something can be labeled as vulgar or unpolite in the USA??So yes one must first define what modesty is.
EVERYONE IN HERE THIS IS THE MAIN ISSUE WHICH I WANT TO DISCUSS NOW
I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
Peace,
You're the one who should re-read my post again.I never said absolutely if your article is a contradict one.
I will quoted my post againIf verse 3330-33 only applicable to Phrophet's wives, then it will contrary to your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-confined-to-houses.htm.
Because you used verses of Mary to relate it with verse 3333 and Mary didn't included in Phrophet's wives (read 1920).Okay the only verse in the Quran which talks about "confined in the house" is verse 3333.
What I questioning now Is verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
If yes, your article has nothing to do with this discussion, because you used verses of Mary in there and Mary doesn't included as Phrophet's wives.READ THIS
1920 She (Mary) said ?How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such??
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Peace everyone
Peace brother I want to ask question.
Is dressing like bikini, lady gaga or something can be labeled as vulgar or unpolite in the USA??Peace Earthdom,
Yes bikini is lewd by Quranic guidelines
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Does not cover the bosom
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Reveals the shape of the body
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Not much different than panties and bra (underwear)
I am unfamiliar with lady Gaga
Earthdom says So this mean verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
33/33 To settle down in your home infers that one's home is to be the focus of the woman's
attention, she can work, go to school, attend events, visit family and friends, drive, but not
to the extent of neglecting her home, like during the days of Jahiliyah. The prophets wives
are the example but live under a different restrictive set of rules because of their position.A world leader's wife has to live differently than the common folk, such is the lives of the
wives of the messenger of God. Michelle Obama lives by a different standard than other
woman because of the office she holds. 33/33 addresses the prophets wives who are held
to a higher standard than other women so believing woman should take from their example.Please read ayats before 33/33 (context)
O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution will be
doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.Any one of you who obeys GOD and His messenger, and leads a righteous life, we
will grant her double the recompense, and we have prepared for her a generous provision.O wives of the prophet, you are not the same as any other women, if you
observe righteousness. (You have a greater responsibility.) Therefore, you shall not
speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts may get the wrong ideas; you
shall speak only righteousness.God bless
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Salaam hawk99
Yes bikini is lewd by Quranic guidelines
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Does not cover the bosom
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Reveals the shape of the body
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Not much different than panties and bra (underwear)
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.I am unfamiliar with lady Gaga
Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian cultures.
33/33 To settle down in your home infers that one's home is to be the focus of the woman's
attention, she can work, go to school, attend events, visit family and friends, drive, but not
to the extent of neglecting her home, like during the days of Jahiliyah. The prophets wives
are the example but live under a different restrictive set of rules because of their position.A world leader's wife has to live differently than the common folk, such is the lives of the
wives of the messenger of God. Michelle Obama lives by a different standard than other
woman because of the office she holds. 33/33 addresses the prophets wives who are held
to a higher standard than other women so believing woman should take from their example
.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
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Salaam hawk99
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian cultures.
.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
red highlight above is from me.
hawk99's argument is quite persuasive. I do agree with him 100%.
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam hawk99
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.Peace Earthdom,
You are correct, I should have stated "bikini shows not only shape but details
of a woman's body"A woman can reveal the details of her body by walking a certain way.
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.
Agreed
Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian culturesMany stage acts are lewd, sex sells!
Lady Gaga Stretches Naked and Dips Butt in Gold Before VMAs ? PICS, PHOTOS
"Because it?s Gaga, there was also some naked stretching, nose ring adjustment, and the
moment when she caked her buttocks in gold."Judging from the above quote and without knowing much about her I would say yes,
she contradicts Indonesian cultures.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
Yes 33/30-33 addresses The prophets wives, the prophets wives are good examples
for all believing women.God bless
peace
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Peace everyone
red highlight above is from me.
Not really D
hawk99's argument is quite persuasive. I do agree with him 100%.
Thanks for your contribution.I will create a poll thread about this sometimes InshaAllah.
"Because it?s Gaga, there was also some naked stretching, nose ring adjustment, and the
moment when she caked her buttocks in gold."Judging from the above quote and without knowing much about her I would say yes,
she contradicts Indonesian cultures.According to 2431.Yes I agree with you.
Yes 33/30-33 addresses The prophets wives, the prophets wives are good examples
for all believing women.I'm not well for memorizing Quranic verses, so please show me the verse which said if female believers must take Phrophet's wives as an example.
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The aya before this and the one after are addressed exclusively or concern the Prophet's wives. Obviously what is said is to do with their standing as such. the tabarruj they could come up with is nothing to do with those women who asre not of their standing. Therefore, regardless of make up or adornements, and I do not know anything about the kind of cosmetics or whether there were cosmetics at hand in those times, the tabarruj is clearly tied to their standing, not being more or less pretty.
And there is one thing here that keeps to be ignored and it is that in the case of women standing and beauty and physical appearance are very much tied up to this very age, and to pretend that everything is to do with modesty and nothing with social standing is tantamount to practice deliberaty blindness. The Qur'an does no ignore that and makes it clear and warns women to no to fall in that trap. But it is useless, the asslike mind hypnotic modesty as soon as the talk is about women will come back like a machine work.
What no do away wholly with women and talk about modesty? Nothing being talked about women could be about anything but modesty. That is about the only thing that can be born in mind when the talk is about women. There seems to be there some bewitching at work. My God!
As to the tabarruj, what was before the make up or the tabarruj, because dictionnaries do not tell us exactly when the word came to be and with what meaning and the meaning that is attached today may have been precisely influenced by the meaning that has been given to the Qur'an and not the other way around. At any rate the context is clear. The tabarruj is done showing themselves here and there and everywhere to get attention, and it depends on the standing, since no other women are addressed.
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Salaam,
Both men and women should be modest and that is not only in the way we dress but also behavior. In fact the behavioral part is more important and reflects the whole belief system and an immodest behavior enhances the effects of a poor clothing.
God bless you
