Jahiliyah in verse 33:33
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peace,
If verse 3330-33 only applicable to Phrophet's wives, then it will contrary to your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-confined-to-houses.htm.
Because you used verses of Mary to relate it with verse 3333 and Mary didn't included in Phrophet's wives (read 1920).I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
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peace,
I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
Yes I do recommend reading the analysis contained in that thread given by Wakas. It is a meritorious detailed work. We should avail of it.
Salaam
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So yes one must first define what modesty is.
God bless
peace
Most definitely it should be defined estrictly as to the question at hand.
For the purposes here, I do think that posters should specify what kind of modesty they are talking about, because in English there seems to be two completely different meanings e3ndclosed into that word, which in Spanish, concretely, there are two very different specific words.
To uillustrate what I mean
"Modestia"
is akin tohumility, it is not being self assuming, not to boast, be unassuming, be discreet about one's own attainments in whatever field or sense.
"Pudor"
has to do with sexual mores, a prudent guarding, self-respecting attitude, not being overpowering overimposing or exhibitious, bein discreet in sexual sense.
The two things are completely different.
The opposite of the first is vanity
The opposite of the second is indecency.
In that sense, if the 4.31 was about "pudor", the great lecture should have been given to males, and not to females. Because the looks many men throw about, the speach, the attitudes, have nothing to so with modesty, they are offensive in themselves. And in fact they are indeed warned in 24.30 whent hey are told to guard their intimate parts, and "guard" is a much wider meaning that cover. Cover to guard, but the guarding goes much beyond merely covering them. It means the whole thing of using them with the consciousness of God. On that count, women and men get the same injonctions.
But in 24.31 women get further advise and as far as I can judge that advise has to do mostly with
"modestia"
and with
"pudor",
only ancillaryly
to the extent in which vanity of women rests on their physical attractiveness, since in most environments, even today, women means of attaining social significance owe very muh to their physical attractiveness, be it thorugh marriage, be it through their hability to win "hearts" with their beauty more in working or other environments, than with their talent and society's penchant to value women through their physical attractiveness more than through their talents. And women?s beauty, whether contrived, like make up or jewelry, or natural, includes their bottoms, bossom, hips and so on, even without sexual content, those parts are greatly appreciated as beuty attributes. Women are quite capable of appreciating other women's beauties, for instance, and to be jeallous of them, without any hint of sexual arising.
In 24.31 what happens is that precisely they are warned about falling into that trap. They should guard themselves from the physical attributes to delude them to misdirect their efforts or miscalculate as to the way they are appreciated. In fact what that aya is saying is the same as the "hijabists" blame on the "west", that it exploits women's bodies, which is true, but of course the solution they propose is the opposite and as demeaning for women as the "west"'s misuse in that they make modesty eclusively and narrowly as "pudor" and tributary to male's whimsical requirements and not as a careful and loving injunction from the Creator to women to not fall into being reduced to their body, be it through valuing it as a hook, "westlike", be it through devaluing it as somebody else's territory "hijabwise". In that sense hijab is males marking of territory, like the dogs' pee. Women should reject both castrations as derogatory of their dignity as God's direct servants, without intermediaries nor self-appointed watchers or guards.
God's directs the Prophet to say this directly to the believing women, without going through the intermediary of any male. It is very offensive that males make the appearance of women their own business. It is not. The business they should make their own, is clearly what they are told in 24.30. Mostly they do not give a damn about it, but there millions of web and printed pages boring everybody with tirades about women's clothing.
Stop being women watchers, for God sake. (This of course is directed to those who act like that, not indeed, to the very much appreciated brothers in the forum or elsewhere who in fact are great companions and are as bothered as any woman by this parallel devaluation of their sister's femaleness and of their own maleness, which reduces them to some animal like wrtech. Hopefully, and God willing together we will get somewhere for the good of all)
Salaam
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Peace everyone
Yusuf Ali translates it as dazzling display, but it is more than that, it is extreme soaking of attention over oneself. One obviously does not do that in the own home, unless it is a public place, like a royal palace. One needs to go outside to parade the own social or political standing.
Sister, do you know the meaning of tabarujja?
Usage and meaning of tabarujja is ornate, primp, using cosmetics, beauty showcased etc..
So the contexs of tabarujja (show off) in 3333 is not about stay in home, show off in public place or something, but about woman's style in dress and make up.Btw one of the subject which I want to discuss is "What kind of drees and make up styles according to the Koran so that woman has not be categorized into "jahiliyah"??
The prophet's wives had a social and moral standing over other women, the same as the prophet had a standing over the other males, that is why they would be able to "tabarrajna tabarruja". Other women could not do that because they did not have that standing. Standing and popularity are the attributs of eminent people. A cleaning woman would not have much to dazzle others in that sense.
So this mean verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
Modesty is culturally bound, I as an American know what modest dress looks like in
my culture, same for other citizens in other cultures.Peace brother I want to ask question.
Is dressing like bikini, lady gaga or something can be labeled as vulgar or unpolite in the USA??So yes one must first define what modesty is.
EVERYONE IN HERE THIS IS THE MAIN ISSUE WHICH I WANT TO DISCUSS NOW
I think you have misunderstood what has been written. I recommend re-reading, several times if necessary.
It will not be contrary. I used the verses about Mary to extract principles/guidance, not in the way you think I have.
In the link in my post above, I used cross-reference to determine the more accurate meaning of QRR. Once I had this, determining what 3333 was saying was much easier - it is emphasising to the prophet's wives to be content within the household rather than showing-off to the people - it is addressing a mindset, and this explains the perfect link to the former ignorance wherein people did not have the appropriate mindset. As discussed by sister huruf above also.
Peace,
You're the one who should re-read my post again.I never said absolutely if your article is a contradict one.
I will quoted my post againIf verse 3330-33 only applicable to Phrophet's wives, then it will contrary to your article in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-confined-to-houses.htm.
Because you used verses of Mary to relate it with verse 3333 and Mary didn't included in Phrophet's wives (read 1920).Okay the only verse in the Quran which talks about "confined in the house" is verse 3333.
What I questioning now Is verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
If yes, your article has nothing to do with this discussion, because you used verses of Mary in there and Mary doesn't included as Phrophet's wives.READ THIS
1920 She (Mary) said ?How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such??
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Peace everyone
Peace brother I want to ask question.
Is dressing like bikini, lady gaga or something can be labeled as vulgar or unpolite in the USA??Peace Earthdom,
Yes bikini is lewd by Quranic guidelines
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Does not cover the bosom
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Reveals the shape of the body
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Not much different than panties and bra (underwear)
I am unfamiliar with lady Gaga
Earthdom says So this mean verse 3333 only adressed to Phrophet's wives only??
33/33 To settle down in your home infers that one's home is to be the focus of the woman's
attention, she can work, go to school, attend events, visit family and friends, drive, but not
to the extent of neglecting her home, like during the days of Jahiliyah. The prophets wives
are the example but live under a different restrictive set of rules because of their position.A world leader's wife has to live differently than the common folk, such is the lives of the
wives of the messenger of God. Michelle Obama lives by a different standard than other
woman because of the office she holds. 33/33 addresses the prophets wives who are held
to a higher standard than other women so believing woman should take from their example.Please read ayats before 33/33 (context)
O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution will be
doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.Any one of you who obeys GOD and His messenger, and leads a righteous life, we
will grant her double the recompense, and we have prepared for her a generous provision.O wives of the prophet, you are not the same as any other women, if you
observe righteousness. (You have a greater responsibility.) Therefore, you shall not
speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts may get the wrong ideas; you
shall speak only righteousness.God bless
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Salaam hawk99
Yes bikini is lewd by Quranic guidelines
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Does not cover the bosom
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Reveals the shape of the body
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Not much different than panties and bra (underwear)
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.I am unfamiliar with lady Gaga
Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian cultures.
33/33 To settle down in your home infers that one's home is to be the focus of the woman's
attention, she can work, go to school, attend events, visit family and friends, drive, but not
to the extent of neglecting her home, like during the days of Jahiliyah. The prophets wives
are the example but live under a different restrictive set of rules because of their position.A world leader's wife has to live differently than the common folk, such is the lives of the
wives of the messenger of God. Michelle Obama lives by a different standard than other
woman because of the office she holds. 33/33 addresses the prophets wives who are held
to a higher standard than other women so believing woman should take from their example
.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
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Salaam hawk99
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian cultures.
.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
red highlight above is from me.
hawk99's argument is quite persuasive. I do agree with him 100%.
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam hawk99
For covering, Quran only said to cover the bosom (2431), but Quran never said if we musn't reveal the shape of the body.Peace Earthdom,
You are correct, I should have stated "bikini shows not only shape but details
of a woman's body"A woman can reveal the details of her body by walking a certain way.
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.
Plus "Except what is apparent" in 2431 have different views from each cultures.
Agreed
Really??? She ever did a concert in my contry and get some critics by some people and Islamic NGOs, with reason of "degeneration of moral" and symbol of "liberalism
Lady Gaga actually is very contradict with Indonesian culturesMany stage acts are lewd, sex sells!
Lady Gaga Stretches Naked and Dips Butt in Gold Before VMAs ? PICS, PHOTOS
"Because it?s Gaga, there was also some naked stretching, nose ring adjustment, and the
moment when she caked her buttocks in gold."Judging from the above quote and without knowing much about her I would say yes,
she contradicts Indonesian cultures.So according to you this verses only adress to Phropeth's wives.Maybe I must agree with you.
But I still need another arguments from another members for this.
Yes 33/30-33 addresses The prophets wives, the prophets wives are good examples
for all believing women.God bless
peace
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Peace everyone
red highlight above is from me.
Not really D
hawk99's argument is quite persuasive. I do agree with him 100%.
Thanks for your contribution.I will create a poll thread about this sometimes InshaAllah.
"Because it?s Gaga, there was also some naked stretching, nose ring adjustment, and the
moment when she caked her buttocks in gold."Judging from the above quote and without knowing much about her I would say yes,
she contradicts Indonesian cultures.According to 2431.Yes I agree with you.
Yes 33/30-33 addresses The prophets wives, the prophets wives are good examples
for all believing women.I'm not well for memorizing Quranic verses, so please show me the verse which said if female believers must take Phrophet's wives as an example.
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The aya before this and the one after are addressed exclusively or concern the Prophet's wives. Obviously what is said is to do with their standing as such. the tabarruj they could come up with is nothing to do with those women who asre not of their standing. Therefore, regardless of make up or adornements, and I do not know anything about the kind of cosmetics or whether there were cosmetics at hand in those times, the tabarruj is clearly tied to their standing, not being more or less pretty.
And there is one thing here that keeps to be ignored and it is that in the case of women standing and beauty and physical appearance are very much tied up to this very age, and to pretend that everything is to do with modesty and nothing with social standing is tantamount to practice deliberaty blindness. The Qur'an does no ignore that and makes it clear and warns women to no to fall in that trap. But it is useless, the asslike mind hypnotic modesty as soon as the talk is about women will come back like a machine work.
What no do away wholly with women and talk about modesty? Nothing being talked about women could be about anything but modesty. That is about the only thing that can be born in mind when the talk is about women. There seems to be there some bewitching at work. My God!
As to the tabarruj, what was before the make up or the tabarruj, because dictionnaries do not tell us exactly when the word came to be and with what meaning and the meaning that is attached today may have been precisely influenced by the meaning that has been given to the Qur'an and not the other way around. At any rate the context is clear. The tabarruj is done showing themselves here and there and everywhere to get attention, and it depends on the standing, since no other women are addressed.
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Salaam,
Both men and women should be modest and that is not only in the way we dress but also behavior. In fact the behavioral part is more important and reflects the whole belief system and an immodest behavior enhances the effects of a poor clothing.
God bless you
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Peace everyone
Not really
Thanks for your contribution.I will create a poll thread about this sometimes InshaAllah.
According to 2431.Yes I agree with you.
I'm not well for memorizing Quranic verses, so please show me the verse which said if female believers must take Phrophet's wives as an example.
Peace Earthdom,
If the prophets wives are to receive double the reward for striving to obtain righteousness, would it not be
advantageous to other believing women to at least recognize that the behavior of the wives of the prophet
are a good example to emulate minus of course the restrictions that apply only to the wives of the prophet.God bless
Salaam,
Both men and women should be modest and that is not only in the way we dress but also behavior. In fact the behavioral part is more important and reflects the whole belief system and an immodest behavior enhances the effects of a poor clothing.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
You have succinctly summed up the verses pertaining to dress and behavior. You may have already noticed at
the beginning of 24/30 and 31 God instructs us to lower the gaze, therefore one may conclude behavior is addressed
before clothing, that is one key to understanding how important behavior is.Thank you
God bless
peace
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peace Earthdom, all,
Please read this post VERY carefully.
You said
Okay the only verse in the Quran which talks about "confined in the house" is verse 3333.
Wrong.
It is not about being "confined in the house", it is about mindset. In my first reply to you in this thread I linked to a post which discussed a more accurate translation, thus meaning, of the verse
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600548.msg250939#msg250939
Read the above post multiple times, and if you still don't understand, then read 3359 which clearly discusses the prophet's wives being outside the house - thus your understanding of 3333 being "confined in the house" will contradict (or make irrelevant) 3359.I will leave that for you to resolve.
The only thing I would add is that in 3333 the end underlined part is in the masculine plural, thus
And be content/glad in your homes, and do not show off yourselves (as was) the olden/former ignorance. You shall uphold the bond and bring forth the betterment, and obey God and His messenger. God wishes to remove any affliction from you, O people of the house/shelter, and to purify you completely.
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Salaam everyone
As to the tabarruj, what was before the make up or the tabarruj, because dictionnaries do not tell us exactly when the word came
What dictionary you used, huruf?
Both men and women should be modest and that is not only in the way we dress but also behavior. In fact the behavioral part is more important and reflects the whole belief system and an immodest behavior enhances the effects of a poor clothing.
Simple but accurate,Man of Faith ).
If the prophets wives are to receive double the reward for striving to obtain righteousness, would it not be
advantageous to other believing women to at least recognize that the behavior of the wives of the prophet
are a good example to emulate minus of course the restrictions that apply only to the wives of the prophet.Yes verse 3333 only address the Phrophet's wive.No doubt bout this.
It is not about being "confined in the house", it is about mindset. In my first reply to you in this thread I linked to a post which discussed a more accurate translation, thus meaning, of the verse
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600548.msg250939#msg250939
Read the above post multiple times, and if you still don't understand, then read 3359 which clearly discusses the prophet's wives being outside the house - thus your understanding of 3333 being "confined in the house" will contradict (or make irrelevant) 3359.Wakas, if this verse is not about "stay in the house" then you must have the alternative translation of this word " ".
Yes of course ayat 3333 is contradict with verses of Mary etc because 3333 only address Phrophet's wives, while other wasn't.The situation from both verses also different
According to my assumption ayat 3333 was sent down during jahiliyah time and war time, and the purpose of this verse was to keep safety for Phrophet's wives.Thanks Wakas, but are you have another argument regarding this http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605995.0
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Salaam everyone
What dictionary you used, huruf?
Actually I have several and I am not going to go back now to verify which one or ones, because probably they all have similar things and my looking back at it is not going to change anything at all in my objection which is nothing to do with which dictionnary, by the simple fact that, as far as I know, there is no dictionnary that goes back to the Prophet's time, which would be only one relevant to the question at hand. The question is we do not know what was th complete semantic field of that word a that time if it is not through th Qur'an itself. There, once again, I remit you or anybody else at the analysis made by wakas which is as far as I could judge, quite conscientious and took into account, logically the basic meanings of the root and rules of derivation. The changing of the mwaning of words in common use thorugh time is something we see continuously in avery language that I know of. So my question is quite to the point and asking me about which ictionnary I use 17 centuries after the fact is... well... cute.
More useful information would be to get facts regarding what were the actual usages at that time in appearances, like if make up was widely used and by whom and that kind of thing. Anybody then or at any time in history, if bent on holding onto his or her standing, would use whatever external apsign that enhanced their status and standing, if make up, if a certain way of walking, that way of walking or holding themselves... whatever was a mark of their eminence and "towering" over others because of their condition, in this case, as wives of the Prophet, which was quite something if we judge by what the Qur'an themsleves forbids them, like to marry again. They were beyond the reach of any man, buyond, beyond... What can a status be that puts a woman beyond the reach of absolutely every male in the world? High, unatainable, right? Woudl they really need to resort to a lot of make up and make posters of themselves? No... Rather they would put weight on their unataibleness.Obviously they didn't do that, because they were ssincere, believing women, deserving all respect and devotion from the believers as mothers of them as named by God Himself.
Salaam
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Salaam,
It is up to the discretion of the woman to decide for herself and according to her level of faith and belief what to dress and especially not up to a man to decide this. That is my opinion on this and it is weird that we are even discussing this. We answer in front of God as individuals and not collectively, so there is no reason to try to force one's personal opinions and threaten people that God will curse and ban them to Hell. The Qur'an does not explicitly tell what the woman should do with the dress but only to conceal private parts, bosom and be modest and the man has been told to lower their gaze which could be counted as equal to not stare at the various body parts and feel attracted by the woman.
If whatever way she dresses is immodest in God's eyes, it is added to the repository of sins and if she is performing many good deeds they may far outweigh her immodesty with dress code, if that would be the case. What portrays our modesty is first-most the actions of the person.
On the other hand, we should not mock a person for wishing to conceal her beauty through the means of traditional hijab in case she wishes to be modest as long as she believes this is not what God commanded, when it is still not dooming her to eternal agony if she would believe so but as a sin at worst. When you oppress someone forcing belief upon someone, no matter right or wrong, then it is something which will be added heavily unto the repository of sins. God had written that oppression is worse than murder, so you can guess how God sees on that, i.e. oppression is like as if you killed someone or worse.
In the regions of the Middle-East, Iran, where I spent a few years it is like a shame for the woman if a man would happen to see even her hair as if it was the private parts of her and this stress inflicted on the woman is difficult to justify. I know that the pious women had their hearts bumping ten times if it would happen that a man would see her by mistake at some point. The sin in the encounter is wherever unrighteous lusts are generated by the encounter between man and woman and not merely by accidentally looking upon someone's hair even if it portrays a certain part of her beauty.
It is okay if these women wishes to hide their innate beauty from men, but the wronging in this is that they believe God will punish them severely, even if their behavior is evidently modest, when they are seen by men without cover. Well, it is self-punishment in my opinion and will only make one feel bad about themselves without any proper cause.
God bless you
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The changing of the mwaning of words in common use thorugh time is something we see continuously in avery language that I know of.
Yes I aware about this.
"Change the meaning" can be possible if the real meaning didn't synchronous with the ayat.
