The Twelve Months Breakdown
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Peace, so according to your calculus feeding the poor; shr/month according to you equates to 9 days?
584 so from/who not find so fast shryn/cycle two successive from before that touch both so from not is able so feed sixty poor of ...
589 ... so reparation its feed ten poor from average what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or free neck (i.e. slave) so from/who not find so fast three days ...
Feed 60 poor = fast 2 shryn
Feed 10 poor = fast 3 days60 x 3 days = 10 x 2 shr
9 days = shr?
Salam Brother ,
The arguments below are directed to borhter Aymen especially as it's his theory and u'r are welcome discussing it throughly
The subject is
Option N?1. Does the word "Al-chahr " in Al-Qur'an mean a Prolonged period of time a "Month" and that the full moon is a sign of its beginning
or
Option N? 2. The word "Al-chahr " in Al-Qur'an mean The Fixed full moon State itself , and that when the Qur'an said " chahryen " it mean one month not two , and when he say four it mean three months and so on .
lets see what we get , and how does it fit withing the Qura'an if we go according to the Option 2
Evidence n?1/
9.36 / Indeed, the number of " Al-Chohour " with Allah is twelve "Chahr" in the register of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous .
According to the option 2 The expression "Charyeen / 2 " mean one month , and the expression "Arba'3ah Achhour 4 / " mean three months , so the expression " Atna 3'acharah chara 12 / " should mean eleven months .
So according to this option the " 3'am / Lunar cycle " is eleven months , mean eleven consecutive period of time between a full moon to the next
Is the lunar cycle eleven or twelve months ?? who said eleven should provide evidence ?
Evidence n?2/
According to the option 2 if The expression "Charyeen / 2 " mean one month , and the expression "Arba'3ah Achhour 4 / " mean three months then the expression "Al-chahr " also should mean a period of time
case 1
--- If you say the word "Al-chahr " mean a one month then the original theory according to option number 2 collapse .
case 2
--- If you say the word "Al-chahr " the Fixed full moon state only not a period of time extracted , then all the places in the Qur'aa when the term "Al-chahr " is used should mean the same meaning Fixed full moon state , then you have to understand the verses below as so .
Some verses as an example
- example N? 1
3412 / (And to Solomon the wind it went in a "Al-chahr " and it's back in a "Al-chahr " ......)
Replace the word "Al-chahr " according to option 2 and you will realize that the wind do not move at all , because you subjected it with a fixed state " Full Moon ".
Instead to let it move you should understand "Al-chahr " as a period of time
anyone with simple ordinary thinking would say , the the term "Al-chahr " mean a period of time not a Fixed full moon state .
- example N? 2
2 217/ They ask you about the inviolable "Al-chahr Al-haram " - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great , but averting from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and The inviolable Masjid and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater in the sight of Allah. And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.
Replace the word "Al-chahr " according to option 2 and you will realize that the fight was on the moon not on the earth and the second problem is that there is no motion because you subjected the fight to take place in a fixed state " Full Moon Image " instead to let the believers fight the deliverers you should give them a period of time to let them move therein . So you need to understand "Al-chahr " as to mean a period of time as according to the option N? 1
- Evidence n?3/
Some Linguistic and analytic evidence
When someone want to mean the Fixed full moon state he say " Al-Q'amar Badr "
not " Al-Q'amar Chahr " , the verb ch h r literally mean appear , but the proper noun with definite article AL , Al-chahr does not mean the appearance , because the moon was already appearing in previous stage , and once on the stage of full moon witch is " Al-Q'amar Badr " when the moon appearance is full and completed so it's a singe for people because they used it for time calculation , pilgrimage , agricultural purposes etc , it's a singe appeared for a period of time started , this period of time will extract from a full moon to the next and it's called Al-chahr .Al-chahr is the name of the period of time marked by a sign " The Full moon " , not the name of the sign it self , the Arabic name for the full moon state - the marking singe itself - is " Badr "
From Makayees Alogha dictionary
http//library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=242&idto=250&bk_no=124&ID=37(Badr) "B D R" root is a basic root First meaning completeness and fullness, and the second meaning to harry up / accelerate to something . The first is saying everything was completed is a Badr, the moon called badr when it's full for completeness and fullness. It was said to ten thousand dirhams Badra, because it is exactly the number and its limit. Badra was appointed, namely full
.
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Salam Brother ,
The arguments below are directed to borhter Aymen especially as it's his theory
The subject is
Peace brother,
I'm very familiar with the full-moon arguments although would like to resolve the issue of equating feeding the poor with days/months fasting and that it has no merit in the discussion -- do you agree now?
Likewise please answer the questions how one determines 1st month, etc.? It's OK to state one is not sure.
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Peace brother,
I'm very familiar with the full-moon arguments
Salam Brother ,
The arguments below are directed to borhter Aymen especially as it's his theory and u'r are welcome discussing it throughly
Salam Brother ,
When i said u'r welcome i mean you Member Noon waalqalami
Peace brother,
would like to resolve the issue of equating feeding the poor with days/months fasting and that it has no merit in the discussion -- do you agree now?
I know about the verse you mention as i had this discussion with brother Aymen last year , Yes i agree that the verse 589 does not fit with the equation between feeding the poor with days/months and fasting , but that does not mean the equation do not exsist in the qur'an , where is it then ? you'll read it here
595/ O you who have believed, do not kill game while you are during the inviolable months . And whoever of you kills it intentionally ? the penalty is an equivalent to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering delivered to the Ka?bah, or an expiation the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns , then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.
As per the verse above Instead of feeding the poor Allah require the equivalent in fasting , tell me how will you calculate numbers of days to fast in that particular case ?
I'll move your subject about determining months to a separate post and i appreciate you go further the points raised in my previous post .
My aim for this is not judging someone in particular or having a competition .
Brother Man of Faith Rise you'r head u'r not wrong in that particular subject .
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peace all,
Re
584 so from/who not find so fast shryn/cycle two successive from before that touch both so from not is able so feed sixty poor of ...589 ... so reparation its feed ten poor from average what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or free neck (i.e. slave) so from/who not find so fast three days ...
Re
595/ O you who have believed, do not kill game while you are during the inviolable months . And whoever of you kills it intentionally ? the penalty is an equivalent to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering delivered to the Ka?bah, or an expiation the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns , then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.
In terms of equivalence, is it possible there is a difference in feeding 10 people, and an abstinence from sunrise to sunset?
Think about it, feeding someone could mean providing them one meal. Whilst a daytime of abstinence requires skipping more than one meal most likely. So this interpretation could mean they are not exactly equivalent.
A person usually has 3 meals a day, so one could argue dividing the feeding people number (e.g. 10) by 3 will give you the number of abstinence days, i.e. 3.33
But as I alluded to, a daytime of abstinence may not mean skipping all 3 meals, probably 2. Also, an abstinence is not just about food, it could also be about drink and abstaining from sex/etc so they are not really equivalent in my view.
Does that mean no. of fed people should match no. of abstinence? Only if one thinks they are exactly equivalent. I don't see how anyone can conclude such a thing, but that's just me. Just like how clothing 10 people is not the exact equivalent of feeding 10 people. In other words, we are not dealing with exact equivalents here, but a framework of guidance to work within.
So, my reading of 595 would be that if I killed an animal that could have provided 90 meals, and I could not provide an equivalent animal, then that's how many I should aim for in feeding i.e. 90 people for one meal. It's equivalent in abstinence would depend on what you take "shahr" as
Abstinence for two consecutive shahr = feed 60 people (one meal each?)
Abstinence of 3 days = feed 10 people (one meal each?)So, one who thinks "shahr" as "month" (~30 days), their upper limit would be higher, i.e. no. of abstinence days would range from 30-90, in the example I gave above.
So, one who thinks "shahr" as "full-moon", their upper limit would be lower, i.e. no. of abstinence days would range from 30-45, in the example I gave above.
In addition, we could also use 2196 as a guide, as it says whoever couldn't find a hdy/gift/offering (most likely an animal to feed others with) then an abstinence of 10 days in total. So, for 595 one could do 10 days.
I would say that out of the following two below, number (2) is clearer
- Abstinence for two consecutive shahr = feed 60 people (one meal each?)
- Abstinence of 3 days = feed 10 people (one meal each?)
Which would imply Quran is indicating the number of abstinence days should be less than the number of fed people. We can also see this in 2196, as a hdy/offering would likely provide for more than 10 meals. Thus, the Quranic evidence suggests two consecutive shahr, whatever shahr is, would be less than 60 days.
I hope the above was clear. Just some thoughts.
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peace all,
Re
584 so from/who not find so fast shryn/cycle two successive from before that touch both so from not is able so feed sixty poor of ...589 ... so reparation its feed ten poor from average what thou feeding families yours or clothe them or free neck (i.e. slave) so from/who not find so fast three days ...
Re
In terms of equivalence, is it possible there is a difference in feeding 10 people, and an abstinence from sunrise to sunset?Think about it, feeding someone could mean providing them one meal. Whilst a daytime of abstinence requires skipping more than one meal most likely. So this interpretation could mean they are not exactly equivalent.
A person usually has 3 meals a day, so one could argue dividing the feeding people number (e.g. 10) by 3 will give you the number of abstinence days, i.e. 3.33
But as I alluded to, a daytime of abstinence may not mean skipping all 3 meals, probably 2. Also, an abstinence is not just about food, it could also be about drink and abstaining from sex/etc so they are not really equivalent in my view.
Does that mean no. of fed people should match no. of abstinence? Only if one thinks they are exactly equivalent. I don't see how anyone can conclude such a thing, but that's just me. Just like how clothing 10 people is not the exact equivalent of feeding 10 people. In other words, we are not dealing with exact equivalents here, but a framework of guidance to work within.
So, my reading of 595 would be that if I killed an animal that could have provided 90 meals, and I could not provide an equivalent animal, then that's how many I should aim for in feeding i.e. 90 people for one meal. It's equivalent in abstinence would depend on what you take "shahr" as
Abstinence for two consecutive shahr = feed 60 people (one meal each?)
Abstinence of 3 days = feed 10 people (one meal each?)So, one who thinks "shahr" as "month" (~30 days), their upper limit would be higher, i.e. no. of abstinence days would range from 30-90, in the example I gave above.
So, one who thinks "shahr" as "full-moon", their upper limit would be lower, i.e. no. of abstinence days would range from 30-45, in the example I gave above.
In addition, we could also use 2196 as a guide, as it says whoever couldn't find a hdy/gift/offering (most likely an animal to feed others with) then an abstinence of 10 days in total. So, for 595 one could do 10 days.
I would say that out of the following two below, number (2) is clearer
- Abstinence for two consecutive shahr = feed 60 people (one meal each?)
- Abstinence of 3 days = feed 10 people (one meal each?)
Which would imply Quran is indicating the number of abstinence days should be less than the number of fed people. We can also see this in 2196, as a hdy/offering would likely provide for more than 10 meals. Thus, the Quranic evidence suggests two consecutive shahr, whatever shahr is, would be less than 60 days.
I hope the above was clear. Just some thoughts.
Thanks for commenting Brother ,
The concept of three meals is a modern age habit , the verses are clearly saying to feed the poor , there is no mentioning of numbers of meals , and as you may remember the concept i hold regarding fasting is that for a full day ( day and night ) not only from sunrise to sun sit , but anyway that not our subject.
I would appreciate your thoughts about the main subject , how can Option 2 be fitted with arguments 1 , 2 and 3 .
I may be wrong in associating equation between feeding the poor and fasting as per 58 4 , but the equation itself do exist in the Qur'an as per 595
The equation argument was with the purpose to show that "Chahryen " mean two period of time " 2 month" not one , The equation argument is one of many , lets assume its wrong and remain in the main subject , i listed 3 other arguments above .
Your thoughts are always welcome .
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peace AlKitab,
Re evidence 1
If I have understood you correctly you have showed that it takes 13 full moons to make 12 months. Has this been replied to on the forum elsewhere?In 936 the plural shuhur is used rather than the plural ashur - the only occurrence where this happens - I wonder if there is any significance to this.
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peace AlKitab,
Re evidence 1
If I have understood you correctly you have showed that it takes 13 full moons to make 12 months. Has this been replied to on the forum elsewhere?
Salam Wakas ,
(1)first full moon --> second full moon (1 st month )
(2)second full moon --> third full moon (2 nd month)
(3)third full moon --> fourth full moon (3 rd month)
(4)fourth full moon --> Fifth full moon (4 th month )
total 4 Months
And it goes on
(5)........5 to 6 --> (5th month )
(6)........6 to 7 --> (6th month )
(7)........ 7 to 8 --> (7th month )
(........ 8 to 9 --> (8th month )
(9)........ 9 to 10 --> (9th month )
(10)........ 10 to 11 --> (10th month )
(11).........11 to 12 --> (11th month )
(12).........12 to 1 --> (12th month ) The Last full Moon is N?12 , the Full Moon n?1 is the re-start and the same time the end of the count ; it's included in the count in the beginning onlytotal
Twelve full Moon 12 months
So there is no 13 full moons to make 12 months , but only 12 full moons , You get confused by full Moon N?1 you considered it as N?13
In 936 the plural shuhur is used rather than the plural ashur - the only occurrence where this happens - I wonder if there is any significance to this.
In 936 the plural shuhur is used rather than the plural ashur is simply due to the "grammar tense " of the sentence same as the following plurals
--- Niswah instead of Nisaa both are plural
1230 / And women ( Niswah ) in the city said, "The wife of al-'Azeez is seeking to seduce her slave boy; he has impassioned her with love. Indeed, we see her in clear error."
---al-nabiyoun instead of al-nabyeen both are plural
2136 / Say, "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets ( al-nabiyoun ) from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims to Him."
---al-malak instead of al-malaiykah both are plural
8922 / And your Lord has come and the angels ( al-malak) , rank upon rank,
Evidence N? 4
9.36 / Indeed, the number of " Al-Chohour " with Allah is twelve "Chahr" in the register of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous .
According to the option 2 ("Chahr mean Full Moon" theory )
The number of full moons the day Allah had created the heavens and the earth are thousands of millions not only twelve , since i start to notice from when i i was child up to date i have witnessed hundreds of full moon
This Logic doesn't fit at all with the verse 936 and the other verse , simply because Al-Chohour and Chahr in the Qur'an are words used to mean period of times , those period of time are known and determined by Full Moon sign not themselves are called full Moon ,
The verse 936 should be understood as follow ;
The number of cycled period from a full moon to the next is 12 period , the name of one single period is chahr , it's sign is the full moon , it last till the next moon .
The option 2 logic is similar to someone pointing his finger to a place in the map and asking you What is this ?
You reply your finger
The Full Moon is the sign to determine the period of times called " Chahr" ; the option 2 logic say no the full Moon itself is the " Chahr" , by following this logic you come to the conclusion that "Chahryeen / 2 ) mean one period of time ( 1 Month ) , and ( Arba3ah achhour / 4 ) mean three period of time ( 3 Months ) ,
This is dangerous because it change the count of the inviolable months ,
** the qur'an in 936 is saying that 4 restricted period of time , option 2 say no only 3 periods
** the qur'an in 492 is saying that the one who kill by mistake should fast 2 period of times , option 2 say no only 1
** the qur'an in 584 is saying that the ones who said that their wives are unlawful to them because they consider them as their mother should fast fast 2 period of times , option 2 say no only 1And so on ...You saw the issue ?
With my respect to you brother and to brother Aymen for your research and effort i sincerely hope we come all to a logic and correct understanding and that you may have kind of magnanimous for reviewing and foreign thoughts / critics .
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peace ak,
According to the option 2 ("Chahr mean Full Moon" theory )
The number of full moons the day Allah had created the heavens and the earth are thousands of millions not only twelve , since i start to notice from when i i was child up to date i have witnessed hundreds of full moon
In brother Ayman's article, he discusses this specific point and makes the case that it is not the number of full-moons, but the count of the full-moons that is important, and that is 12.
See http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htmThe number of full-moons in a year is 12 or 13. We do not count the 13th according to the above article. The first full-moon to count, according to the above, is after the summer solstice (~june 21st).
You can try it here
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/fullmoon.htm -
peace ak,
In brother Ayman's article, he discusses this specific point and makes the case that it is not the number of full-moons, but the count of the full-moons that is important, and that is 12.
See http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htmSalam wakas ;
The word used in the qur'an to mean count & counting is al-hsab ,
1712 / And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years (3adad) and the account ( al-hssab) . And everything We have set out in detail.
So "3adah" in 936 literally mean number , same as in 2184 and the other verses
2184/ a limited number (ma3dodat) of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey - then an equal number( 3adah) of days . And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person . And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew.
Hence , 3adah in 936 is number ...number of al-chouhour .
9.36 / Indeed, the number ( 3adah) of " Al-Chohour " with Allah is twelve "Chahr" in the register of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous .
The number of full-moons in a year is 12 or 13. We do not count the 13th according to the above article. The first full-moon to count, according to the above, is after the summer solstice (~june 21st).
You can try it here
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/fullmoon.htmWell ! there are a lot of inconsistency i'll post my comparative thoughts in the main thread so we may come closer to the correct counting
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peace ak,
Your own original objection still stands if you use "number" in 936. Please explain why in your understanding your own objection is removed.
The number of full moons the day Allah had created the heavens and the earth are thousands of millions not only twelve , since i start to notice from when i i was child up to date i have witnessed hundreds of full moon
This Logic doesn't fit at all with the verse 936 and the other verse , simply because Al-Chohour and Chahr in the Qur'an are words used to mean period of times , those period of time are known and determined by Full Moon sign not themselves are called full Moon ,
I have not studied the words for count, so thanks for the info. However, based on the evidence you have presented I'm not convinced. Also the words in 1712 (3adad) and 936 (3iddat) are different.
Well ! there are a lot of inconsistency i'll post my comparative thoughts in the main thread so we may come closer to the correct counting
Please do so, but be very clear and accurate. Thanks.
And in case you do not know my view, I think shahr meaning full-moon is a strong possibility, but I'm not convinced. I have not really conducted my own analysis however.
