Al-Rajm stoning to death of Kicked out / castaway ?

Scribbler

Dear brother, al-amiyr.

May peace be with you.

I have been kind of following some of your threads for the last few days, and now I feel it's time I would respectfully like to ask you a couple of questions regarding the issue of 'stoning' in this thread. My questions are going to be very simple, and I hope you to construct your answers very simply as well.

Please take a look at this hadith

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

"... Ibn Abbas added We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed..."

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817)

My questions

Who is this somebody (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is this somebody a regular person like most of us in this forum without the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)? Or is this somebody a person who possess the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?
What is this 'Allah?s book' (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is it referring to the Quran? or is it referreing to the Hidden book/Al-Kitab/Some other book?

Looking forward to see your answers.

Peace.

al-amiyr

Dear brother, al-amiyr.

May peace be with you.

I have been kind of following some of your threads for the last few days, and now I feel it's time I would respectfully like to ask you a couple of questions regarding the issue of 'stoning' in this thread. My questions are going to be very simple, and I hope you to construct your answers very simply as well.

Please take a look at this hadith

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

"... Ibn Abbas added We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed..."

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817)

My questions

Who is this somebody (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is this somebody a regular person like most of us in this forum without the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)? Or is this somebody a person who possess the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?
What is this 'Allah?s book' (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is it referring to the Quran? or is it referreing to the Hidden book/Al-Kitab/Some other book?

Looking forward to see your answers.

Peace.

Dear brother, Scribbler

May the peace be upon you too

Thank you for your good presentation and your respectful manner of addressing all aspects of this discussion. You have asked very valid questions and I think that you might be the first person who have asked it the way you have.

You asked,

Who is this somebody (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is this somebody a regular person like most of us in this forum without the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)? Or is this somebody a person who possess the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?

Let us analyze! Here is the original Arabic.

You asked, "Who is this somebody (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith?"

My Answer

This somebody (qaa'ilun) is someone of the future who will deny or conclude or not see or know that the symbol/sign/mark/letter of
stoning the adulterer is in the Book (al-kitaab) of ALLAAH. The reason for this proclamation of this future somebody could be due to a
number of reasons which are as follows

(a)-If this somebody was one who has knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab) then it would be

deliberate falsification (because this somebody has knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab).
personal conclusion (if this somebody has partial knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab) and cannot find it). This somebody would then be
guilty of speaking or concluding matters without knowledge - thus risking inventing lies against ALLAAH.

(b)- If this somebody has no knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab)

then this somebody would be of the illiterates who does not know the book (al-kitaab) and therefore only takes his/her directives directly
from the visible Qur'aan and therefore this somebody will never see or find the symbol/sign/mark/letter of stoning the adulterer because
this will never be able to be seen in the visible verses of the Qur'aan.

You asked, "Is this somebody a regular person like most of us in this forum without the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?"

My Answer

members of this forum would be in category 1. (b) above. If they continue to deny and do not investigate whether the Book (al-kitaab)
exists or not then they will only be answerable to their Lord.

You asked, "Or is this somebody a person who possess the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?"

My Answer

If this somebody was a person who possessed knowledge from the book (al-kitaab) then this person would be classed in category 1. (a)
above.
I do not think that this person will be one who has knowledge of the book(al-kitaab) who would make such a proclamation. It would not
be logical because the Book (al-kitaab) is a book that makes everything clear.

You asked,2) What is this 'Allah?s book' (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is it referring to the Quran? or is it referreing to the Hidden book/Al-Kitab/Some other book?

My Answer

(a)-The second khaliyfah Umar(R+) was referring to the Book (al-kitaab) that contains these rules of ALLAAH that will become unknown as
time passes. He made the very great and specific effort to let it be known that this is a great possibility that might happen.

(b)-The future somebody and his or her fellows are those who have no knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab) and thus only see the Qur'aan
as the only revelation that came to the prophet (S+) and thus see the Book (al-kitaab) of ALLAAH as nothing other than the Qur'aan.
They do not see the Qur'aan as a detailed explanation of the Book (al-kitaab) but as a book they can open be directly guided by.

The promise of ALLAAH to send from a Book to His prophets(P+)
00381
Behold! ALLAAH took the covenant of the prophets, saying
"I give you from
a Book
and
Wisdom;
then comes to you a Messenger,
confirming what is with you;
do you believe in him and render him help."
He said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?"
They said "We agree."
He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

The sending of the Book (al_kitaab) to Humanity.

002213
Humanity was one people
and ALLAAH sent Messengers giving good news and warning and with them He sent
the Book (al_kitaab) in the Truth
to judge between the people in matters wherein they differed.

The Book (al-kitaab) passing down generation after generation through the rightly guided descendants of the chosen family line

And We have already sent Noah and Abraham
and placed in their descendants
prophethood
and
the Book (al-kitaab);
and
among them is he who is guided,
but many of them are defiantly disobedient.

004054
But We had already given the Family of Abraham ("ibraaHiym)
the Book (al_kitaab)
and
the Wisdom
and conferred upon them a Great Kingdom.

1
The First Coming in written form of The Book (al_kitaab).
ALLAAH sends Moses (muwsaa)(P+) and with him he sends The Book (al_kitaab) via The Torah (al_tawrah).

0028043
And We had already given Moses The Book (al_kitaab)
after We had detroyed the first generations
mental perceptions and visions for humanity
and
Guidance and Mercy
in order for them to think of and bear in mind.

2
The Second Coming in written form of The Book (al_kitaab).
ALLAAH sends Jesus ("iysaa)(D+) and with him He sends The Book (al_kitaab)via The Gospel (al_'injiyl).

003042
And behold! The Angels said,
"O Mary! ALLAAH gives thee good news of a Word from Him.
His name is The Christ Jesus , The Son of Mary, distinguished in this world and the hereafter.

003045
"He shall speak to the people in the cradle and middle age"

003047
She said "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?"
He said "Like that it is to thee; ALLAAH creates what He wills.
When He has executed a command and then He just says to it BE! And then it becomes.

003048
And ALLAAH will teach him
The Book (al_kitaab)
and
The Wisdom (al_hikmah)
and
The Torah (al_tawrah)
and
The Gospel (al_'injiyl)

3
The Third Coming in written form of The Book (al_kitaab).
ALLAAH sends Muhammad(S+) and with him He sends The Book (al_kitaab) via The Qur'aan (al_qur'aan).

004136
Oh! You who have believed!
Believe in ALLAAH and His Messenger
and
The Book (al_kitaab) which He has sent His Messenger
and
The Book (al_kitaab) which He has sent aforetime.
And who rejects ALLAAH, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgement
has lost his way; a distant straying.

006155
And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing so follow it
and work towards perfect righteousness in order that you may receive mercy.

006156
Lest you should say,
"The Book (al_kitaab) was sent down to Two Peoples before us
and that we were upon their studies truly unaware.

006157
Or lest you should say,
"If the Book (al_kitaab) had been sent down to us, we would have been better guided than them."
And so there has come to you an indisputable evidence from your Lord
and a Guide and a Mercy.
And who can be more unjustly wrong than one who denies the Signs (al_aayaat) of ALLAAH
and turns away from them.
We shall reward those who turn away from Our Signs with the calamity of punishment
for their having turned away.

We do tell unto thee the best of stories in what We reveal to thee of This Qur?aan
and thou was before this from among the unaware.

Truly this Qur?aan guides to that which is most upright
and gives the good news to the believers who do the good works.
Truly for them is a great reward.

High above is ALLAAH, The King, The Truth!
Be thou not in a hurry with The Qur?aan before it?s revelation to thee is completed but say,
?my Lord! increase me in Knowledge?

And it was not that This Qur?aan
could have been contrived by other than ALLAAH.
But it is a confirmation of What is between His Hands
and
a detailed explanation of The Book (al_kitaab) wherein there is no doubt
from The Lord of the Worlds.

056077 - 080.
And truly it is a Noble Qur?aan
in a Hidden Book.
None touches it except the Purified Ones;
a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

Those are my answers. I hope that I have clarified what you would have liked to know from me. If there is anything else on the matter please let me know.

Bear this in mind that the law of stoning is not easy to execute. It is virtually impossible even if the persons committed adultery. But this can be discussed again inshaa ALLAAH.

Thank you and Peace.

diamantinehoneybunch

Again Sir,

You use the verses that contain the word Book to justify your claim that there is such a thing as Book-that-you-have-been-talking-about .

If the Book is a physical book, can you show us the book? In what page, chapter in the book that contains stoning law?

peace

al-amiyr

Again Sir,

You use the verses that contain the word Book to justify your claim that there is such a thing as Book-that-you-have-been-talking-about .

If the Book is a physical book, can you show us the book? In what page, chapter in the book that contains stoning law?

peace

No Madam

You appear to have eyes with which you cannot see and ears with which you cannot hear and a brain that cannot grasp. Continue to mock the Book (al-kitaab) of ALLAAH. Do not say on that Day that you were not informed. Others are learning while you are destroying. Do you think I am here to waste my precious time on futility. That is the thought of the ignoramuses.
My advice to you before it is too late- begin to learn to see for yourself! Time is running out!

your peace returned

cleanfox5982

Salam Dear All ,
To clarify my view regarding this subject to avoid confusion

***1 - Al-Rajm in Al-quran from a analytical point of view of the usage of this word do not mean stoning to death but to be kicked out or castaway , ex Abliss ( Satan ) become rajeem / expelled , kicked out ..
1534 / said, "Then get out of it, for indeed, you are expelled .

We all know that Abliss wasn't killed or thrown by stone to death after the event as per 715

***2 - There is no Judgement / Hokm in Al-quran as stoning to death the ones who commit Adultery / Al-zina , the Judgement / Hokm regarding the ones who commit it as per the Al-Quran is 100 lashes

242 / The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred lashes . And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

Anyone who require , teach or ask for stoning to death the ones who commit adultery is disbelieving in Allah's judgement , and anyone who stone to death an adulterer or adulteress is a criminal and need to be killed the same way by being thrown by stones as per 2178 , or be forgiven and pay a ransom as per 2178 .

***3- the concept of Al-Rajm who mean to be kicked out or castaway do exist in allah's judgement in the hearafter for not only the adulterer and adulteress who do not repent but for all disbelievers wrongdoers , misguided who do not repent , this people will be kicked out , pushed and stuck to each other , and that is per my understanding from the verses

740/ Indeed, those who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - the gates (Abwab/ &#1576 of Heaven will not be opened for them, nor will they enter Paradise until a camel enters into the eye of a needle. And thus do We recompense the criminals.

837 / so that Allah may distinguish the wicked ( al-khabit )from the good and place the wicked ( al-khabit ) some of them upon others and heap them all together and put them into Hell. It is those who are the losers.

***4- I do not believe in the below narration , and i witness it's not from Allah , and i witness that it's against allah's judgement

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

"... Ibn Abbas added We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed..."

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817)

Scribbler

Dear brother, Scribbler

May the peace be upon you too

Thank you for your good presentation and your respectful manner of addressing all aspects of this discussion. You have asked very valid questions and I think that you might be the first person who have asked it the way you have.

You asked,
Let us analyze! Here is the original Arabic.

You asked, "Who is this somebody (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith?"

My Answer

This somebody (qaa'ilun) is someone of the future who will deny or conclude or not see or know that the symbol/sign/mark/letter of
stoning the adulterer is in the Book (al-kitaab) of ALLAAH. The reason for this proclamation of this future somebody could be due to a
number of reasons which are as follows

(a)-If this somebody was one who has knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab) then it would be

deliberate falsification (because this somebody has knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab).
personal conclusion (if this somebody has partial knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab) and cannot find it). This somebody would then be
guilty of speaking or concluding matters without knowledge - thus risking inventing lies against ALLAAH.

(b)- If this somebody has no knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab)

then this somebody would be of the illiterates who does not know the book (al-kitaab) and therefore only takes his/her directives directly
from the visible Qur'aan and therefore this somebody will never see or find the symbol/sign/mark/letter of stoning the adulterer because
this will never be able to be seen in the visible verses of the Qur'aan.

You asked, "Is this somebody a regular person like most of us in this forum without the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?"

My Answer

members of this forum would be in category 1. (b) above. If they continue to deny and do not investigate whether the Book (al-kitaab)
exists or not then they will only be answerable to their Lord.

You asked, "Or is this somebody a person who possess the knowledge of the Hidden Book (Al-Kitab)?"

My Answer

If this somebody was a person who possessed knowledge from the book (al-kitaab) then this person would be classed in category 1. (a)
above.
I do not think that this person will be one who has knowledge of the book(al-kitaab) who would make such a proclamation. It would not
be logical because the Book (al-kitaab) is a book that makes everything clear.

You asked,2) What is this 'Allah?s book' (highlighted in red) referring to in this hadith? Is it referring to the Quran? or is it referreing to the Hidden book/Al-Kitab/Some other book?

My Answer

(a)-The second khaliyfah Umar(R+) was referring to the Book (al-kitaab) that contains these rules of ALLAAH that will become unknown as
time passes. He made the very great and specific effort to let it be known that this is a great possibility that might happen.