Refute Edip Yuksel's claim about orphan in 4:127

unknownuser

Salaam everyone.

Actually I already posting about this in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg335987#msg335987
But that was not complete so I create new thread about this.

First read this Edip Yuksel's appendix of ayat 4127 from Reformist Translation

DISCUSSION OF 4127
Though the Quran permits polygamy for men (43), it severely discourages its actual practice by requiring certain significant preconditions men may marry more than one wife only if the later ones are widows with children, and they should treat each wife equally and fairly. (See 419-20; 127-129.). Unfortunately, verse 4127 has been traditionally misinterpreted and mistranslated in such a way as to suggest that God permits marriage with juvenile orphans. This is clearly not the case.

The Arabic expression yatama-l nisai-l lati in 4127 has been routinely mistranslated as "women orphans, whom..." The expression is also sometimes translated as "orphans of women whom..." This later translation, though accurate, makes the crucial reference of the objective pronoun "whom" ambiguous Does the phrase after "whom" describe orphans or women?

As it happens, the Arabic plural pronoun in this verse is the female form, allaty (not the male form allazyna), and it can only refer to the women just referenced, not to the orphans. This is because the Arabic word yatama (orphans) is male in gender! All the English translations of the Quran that we have seen have mistranslated this passage. This is remarkable, because correct translation requires only an elementary knowledge of Arabic grammar. This error is thus much more than a simple grammatical slip; it is, we would argue, willful misrepresentation. The traditional interpretation of this passage offers an apparent justification for marriage with children, which flatly contradicts the Quran.

Like so many passages in the Quran, 4127's meaning was severely distorted in order to gain the favor of rich, dominant males. Over the centuries, male scholars with active libidos have used fabricated hadith to pervert the meaning of this and other Quranic verses relating to marriage and sexuality.

Then this is mine refutation

4127.They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers ( /yatama al-nisa) you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it." (Reformist Translation)

4127.They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (Pitchall)

Both of this translations is not true I think

Yatama (&#1609=orphan
Nisaa (&#1569 = women/females

At the first I believe on him regarding this, but when I try to studied that red words, I got a problem.
In the Reformist Translation's appendix, Edip Yuksel claim if the word yatama in 4127 is male gender or masculine So thats why his translation of 4127 is different with the others. BUT

According to corpus quran the word yatama (&#1609 is plurar.Yes this is true if yatama is plurar form of yatim.
The problem is according to me it's not a masculine instead feminine one.

The proof is the word ?yatama? ( ) is irregular plurar, because

In Arabic grammar rule, the regular plurar (jamak saleem) the word must end with nun, but this word doesn't.
If members in here mastering wa?zan rules then by looking the shape of that word (singular) into (plurar), then the word yatama is irregular plurar (jamak takseer).

Wa?zan rules is tranformation of word from singular (mufrod) into irregular plurar (jamak takseer)
Example
-Red (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

-Difficult (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

The more important is All the irregular plurar words are feminime words or female gender withouth any exception.
The word ?yatama? and ?Al-Nisaa? is written separately and no conjuctive between them.So this mean there is no relation between two words and yes they are separate entity because both of two words is a noun.

So ?yatama al-Nisa?i? can be translated into ?orphans (,) women? with commas between them.

Then what criteria of orphan who can be marry to
Read verse 46

?and test the orphans so that if they are up to the age of marriage, then if you think of them intelligent then commit to them their wealth and you do not eat more than the limit and haste (until) they are big/ adult...."

That criteria is in that red words.
Btw my conclusion is same The orphans who not mature enough cannot be married.

This is my explanations, if it contains some mistake then I will appreciate your helps and corrections.

Peace

Mazhar

The word ?yatama? and ?Al-Nisaa? is written separately and no conjuctive between them.So this mean there is no relation between two words and yes they are separate entity because both of two words is a noun.

These two words constitute a phrase whereby are indivisible grammatical unit. This is a possessive phrase for which reason second noun is in genitive case.

huruf

Yatamaa is a broken plural, just as ulama' is a broken plural. It is not feminine, the group it names may be a mixture of males and females.

Otherwise, I think that it is a great error to consider that in 4.3 poligamy is being alluded in any way. There is no question of poligamy either to endorse it or to condemn it. It is talking about marriages arranged by the community for those of its members that may be helped that way. Remember the Ghaza simultaneous marriages of widows that were arranged by the community and which circulated in internet as islamophobic propaganda pretending that child girls were being married, when those girls were the orphan children an it was their mothers that were being married. Poligamy has nothing to do with it. It is a completely separate subject.

Salaam

Wakas

you may find this discussion interesting
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13534.65

diamantinehoneybunch

Yatamaa is a broken plural, just as ulama' is a broken plural. Its not feminine, the group it names may be a mixture of males and females.

Otherwise, I think that it is a great error to consider that in 4.3 poligamy is being alluded in any way. There is no question of poligamy either to endorse it or to condemn it. It is talking about marriages arranged by the community for those of its members that may be helped that way. Remember the Ghaza simultaneous marriages of widows that were arranged by the community and which circulated in internet as islamophobic propaganda pretending that child girls were being married, when those girls were the orphan children an it was their mothers that were being married. Poligamy has nothing to do with it. It is a completely separate subject.

Salaam

Salaah Huruf,

Even though I am a girl / female, I used to not agree with this. It is because I don't want to interpret Qur'an whimsically. And I don't want to be called apologetic by islamophobes.

But after more studies, I doubt.

http//www.aididsafar.com/polygamy.html

Aidid Safar also highly condemns polygamy and he doesn't consider the verse 43 to command polygamy up to 4 wives in helping the orphans and the mothers.
He has the same view as you do.

But can anyone enlighten me on this?

Regards
Yuliana

Mazhar

He based his opinion seeing abuse by people without delving into the meanings and semantics of Arabic text of Qur'aan.

Grand Qur'aan is the Guide in timeline. It incorporates instructions and guidelines to meet all situations that people might face. Anything relevant to human beings is but mentioned in it . Grand Qur'aan portrays unambiguously and in simple words a very well defined Value System. The hub of a society is the Family, not an individual.

It is manifestly obvious from the foregoing that "Polygamy-having many spouses" as a Custom-Rule and as source-an approach of pleasure is not allowed in the Grand Qur'aan. It is prescribed rather to meet exceptional situations arising in the society and as a responsibility-duty-obligation imposed upon men who can manage and afford additional liability of caring for the bereaved children and wives of dead husbands. The Ayah-Verbal Unitary Passage begins with a conditional clause explaining existence-emergence of a peculiar situation, whereby Allah the Exalted issues orders-ordinance to tackle the situation. It is an accepted principle of law that if the prescribed precondition does not exist, the action allowed to be taken or the granted permission ceases to exist. It is thus obvious that Allah the Exalted has NOT allowed marrying four four virgins. Thereby, there is no concept of "Polygamy" in Qur'aan.

Marriage with the widows-mothers of bereaved children will alleviate the possibility of meeting them ill or unequal treatment as compared to children of living fathers since it results in the development of relationship with the Wombs of mothers of bereaved children.

Polygamy as a Custom of having many spouses for pleasure is not allowed in the Grand Qur'aan

unknownuser

Peace everyone

These two words constitute a phrase whereby are indivisible grammatical unit. This is a possessive phrase for which reason second noun is in genitive case.

The word yatama and al nisaa is not related each other, but according brother Ayman in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13534.msg120800#msg120800 (Thanks @Wakas that thread very helpful ).
He said if "yatama al nisaa" literally means "woman's orphans", but this is inverted and the correct one will be "nisaa al yatama".
It's like Phrophet's wives in Arabic is "Nisaa al Nabiyi" not "Nabi al nisaa".

Yatamaa is a broken plural, just as ulama' is a broken plural. It is not feminine, the group it names may be a mixture of males and females.

Huruf, thanks for mentioning this.

Oh yes I will take back my statement if "All broken/iregular plurar is feminine", because broken plurar in Arabic is hard to decipher it's gender.
Because the formula is different with regular plural (jamak saleem),The only way to mastering it is by memorize all it's wuzan (pattern) and follow what native speaker's usage of it.

But according to corpus quran the word ulama is masculine SEE

Mazhar

The word yatama and al nisaa is not related each other, but according brother Ayman in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13534.msg120800#msg120800 (Thanks @Wakas that thread very helpful ).
He said if "yatama al nisaa" literally means "woman's orphans", but this is inverted and the correct one will be "nisaa al yatama".
It's like Phrophet's wives in Arabic is "Nisaa al Nabiyi" not "Nabi al nisaa".

The comparison is simply ridiculous. In the second phrase the relationship is between two different persons. The first phrase is about one entity. No noun in Arabic is in gentive case in a sentence unless it is influenced by another word which render both as one grammatical unit-inseparable for semantic purposes.

unknownuser

The comparison is simply ridiculous. In the second phrase the relationship is between two different persons. The first phrase is about one entity. No noun in Arabic is in gentive case in a sentence unless it is influenced by another word which render both as one grammatical unit-inseparable for semantic purposes.

I don't understand your explanation, so please explain in easy way.

But can anyone enlighten me on this?

Peace Yuliana

Because it's off topic to answer you question in here, so I already answer this in another thraead

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605791.msg337107#msg337107

Mazhar

The comparison is simply ridiculous. In the second phrase the relationship is between two different persons. The first phrase is about one entity. No noun in Arabic is in gentive case in a sentence unless it is influenced by another word which render both as one grammatical unit-inseparable for semantic purposes.

I don't understand your explanation, so please explain in easy way.

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

unknownuser

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

So how you translate yatama al-nisae??

hawk99

Peace,

It is about time that we discuss which laws are for the past, present and future in Quran.

Slavery is to vanish, but existed during the revelation of the Quran.

The freeing of slaves was encouraged 2/177, 9/60, 90/13 Today slavery is almost non-
existent.

Marrying two sisters was acceptable before the revelation of 4/23 but not afterwards.
Polygamy, restricted to four wives during the revelation of Quran.

The need to adopt this system has passed as women do not outnumber men any
longer by the same ratio as in the past. Also the qualifier for polygamy is stringent,
eliminating the vast majority of men from qualifying. 4/3

Wife beating has been outlawed in the USA, while many of us Muslims will say this is
wrong, it is my guess that the women are glad that the beatings are unlawful in the USA.

God bless

unknownuser

Peace hawk99

Thanks, but sorry this thread intents to discuss "yatama l-nisaai" in 4127 not about slavery or something.

So this can be used to determine my next intepretation about orphans.

So how you translate yatama al-nisae??

Peace Mazhar

Why you didn't answer?? What is translation of "yatama l-nisaae" in english according to you??

unknownuser

I already get the answer for way he translate yatama al nisaae as orphan's mother and why yatama is male in gender

First I take huruf's advice if yatama is mixed in gender, it means this word can be masculine or feminine.

2220
42
46

See the word hum which is pronoun of "yatama" is masculine, so this is clearly stated if yatama in those three verses is male in gender or male orphan.

But I still in my opinion if yatama and alnisaa' is not related each other.
AND THIS VERSE ALSO CLEARLY SAID IF QURAN IS NOT MALE DOMINANT SCRIPTURE.

Because if the verse only addrressing male then how can it be if that male marry the male orphans ;D.

Bigmo

Salaam everyone.

Actually I already posting about this in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg335987#msg335987
But that was not complete so I create new thread about this.

First read this Edip Yuksel's appendix of ayat 4127 from Reformist Translation

Then this is mine refutation

4127.They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers ( /yatama al-nisa) you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it." (Reformist Translation)

4127.They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (Pitchall)

Both of this translations is not true I think

Yatama ()=orphan
Nisaa () = women/females

At the first I believe on him regarding this, but when I try to studied that red words, I got a problem.
In the Reformist Translation's appendix, Edip Yuksel claim if the word yatama in 4127 is male gender or masculine So thats why his translation of 4127 is different with the others. BUT

According to corpus quran the word yatama () is plurar.Yes this is true if yatama is plurar form of yatim.
The problem is according to me it's not a masculine instead feminine one.

The proof is the word ?yatama? ( ) is irregular plurar, because

In Arabic grammar rule, the regular plurar (jamak saleem) the word must end with nun, but this word doesn't.
If members in here mastering wa?zan rules then by looking the shape of that word (singular) into (plurar), then the word yatama is irregular plurar (jamak takseer).

Wa?zan rules is tranformation of word from singular (mufrod) into irregular plurar (jamak takseer)
Example
-Red (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

-Difficult (english)= (singular) => (plurar)

The more important is All the irregular plurar words are feminime words or female gender withouth any exception.
The word ?yatama? and ?Al-Nisaa? is written separately and no conjuctive between them.So this mean there is no relation between two words and yes they are separate entity because both of two words is a noun.

So ?yatama al-Nisa?i? can be translated into ?orphans (,) women? with commas between them.

Then what criteria of orphan who can be marry to
Read verse 46

?and test the orphans so that if they are up to the age of marriage, then if you think of them intelligent then commit to them their wealth and you do not eat more than the limit and haste (until) they are big/ adult...."

That criteria is in that red words.
Btw my conclusion is same The orphans who not mature enough cannot be married.

This is my explanations, if it contains some mistake then I will appreciate your helps and corrections.

Peace

This is not relevant since the Quranic commands can only be relevant to those who can comprehend it. So the Quran is not designed for those who are no able to comprehend its meaning. The age of marriage is for those who are mature enough to understand the Quran. The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriage as Sunnis claim which is why they allow child marriage. Parental authority or family authority in the Quran is in the case of the death of someone and a compensation is required. Here the family can act on behalf of the individual since he is dead. Unless you assume the Quran was designed for mature men only but this goes against the Quranic description of itself as a message to mankind. The Quran in many instances talks to men but is really talking to everyone as the case when in many instances its talking to the prophet but really is talking to all of us or is talking to the disbelievers but is really talking to all of us.

The age of marriage is the age of comprehension. The Quran only cares about mental maturity and not physical maturity.

As far as polygamy, polygamy was practiced by many prophets. But the Quran allowed it but discouraged it or laid conditions to it like equality. However its not a requirement for us so there is nothing wrong with abolishing it.

The Quran allowed us to travel but there is nothing wrong with having border controls and visa requirements. Its just how modern humans manage themselves.

Child marriage is rape since the child is not able to comprehend the meaning of the Quran like not to marry pagans or adulterers. A child can not know the difference and does not even have a concept of God. However we interpret the Quranic verses it must be done in a way that doe snot contradict the Quran. We are not Sunnis who look at verses in isolation but we take the Quran as a whole.

Mazhar

So how you translate yatama al-nisae??

It is already indicated in the quote

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

unknownuser

This is not relevant since the Quranic commands can only be relevant to those who can comprehend it. So the Quran is not designed for those who are no able to comprehend its meaning. The age of marriage is for those who are mature enough to understand the Quran. The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriage as Sunnis claim which is why they allow child marriage. Parental authority or family authority in the Quran is in the case of the death of someone and a compensation is required. Here the family can act on behalf of the individual since he is dead. Unless you assume the Quran was designed for mature men only but this goes against the Quranic description of itself as a message to mankind. The Quran in many instances talks to men but is really talking to everyone as the case when in many instances its talking to the prophet but really is talking to all of us or is talking to the disbelievers but is really talking to all of us.

The age of marriage is the age of comprehension. The Quran only cares about mental maturity and not physical maturity.

As far as polygamy, polygamy was practiced by many prophets. But the Quran allowed it but discouraged it or laid conditions to it like equality. However its not a requirement for us so there is nothing wrong with abolishing it.

The Quran allowed us to travel but there is nothing wrong with having border controls and visa requirements. Its just how modern humans manage themselves.

Child marriage is rape since the child is not able to comprehend the meaning of the Quran like not to marry pagans or adulterers. A child can not know the difference and does not even have a concept of God. However we interpret the Quranic verses it must be done in a way that doe snot contradict the Quran. We are not Sunnis who look at verses in isolation but we take the Quran as a whole.

Thanks for the input, but this thread itens to discuss word "yatama" in 4127.

This is the simplest rule of Arabic that every noun in default state is in nominative case. The case means the vowel on the last consonant. The noun in genitive case, as is An-Nisae with Yatama, is the part of the phrase; a phrase is a grammatical unit in all languages; "the father-orphan women"

I already made conclusion if "yatama" is male in gender in the post above.So there is no point if that orphan is a female.

Then from where the word "the father" caming from?

Mazhar

I already made conclusion if "yatama" is male in gender in the post above.So there is no point if that orphan is a female.

Then from where the word "the father" caming from?

"Orphan" in English denotes a child whose parents are both dead or who has been abandoned by his or her parents, especially a child not adopted by another family.

But Yateem and Yateematun in Arabic refers only to a male and female whose father has died. Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

unknownuser

"Orphan" in English denotes a child whose parents are both dead or who has been abandoned by his or her parents, especially a child not adopted by another family.

But Yateem and Yateematun in Arabic refers only to a male and female whose father has died. Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

Your answer is similiar with me in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605791.msg337986#msg337986

The word "yatim" already became part of Indonesian and Malay language.If you want to know some of Indonesia and Malay language adopted from Arabic and Hindi words.

English Indonesian Arabic
Fatherless child Yatim
Motherless child Piatu ??
Orphan Yatim Piatu

Therefore "father-orphan" seems appropriate translation.

Then you may wrote "fatherless orphan" rather than "father orphan", so I'm not confused like this.

Yatama It is also feminine plural noun. Please read about broken plural nouns in Arabic.

My Arab vocabularies is poor.To mastering broken plural in Arabic, we must struggle ourself to memorize wazan (pattern) of broken plural word by word, because this is has no clear formula like regular plurar (jamak saleem).

Peace

Mazhar

Then you may wrote "fatherless orphan" rather than "father orphan", so I'm not confused like this.

"Father-orphan" quite clearly explains for English reader since they know that orphan signifies a child whose parents are dead. "Father-orphan" indicates that it refers to a child whose father is dead.

"Fatherless" might render it ambiguous because fatherless means without a father having no father or no one identified as a father.