Linguistic dissection of the "Khimar" verse 24:31
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I think my doubts over your statement here fall in the following questions
1- Does "yadrebna" mean throw, or could it also mean extend?
2-And if it means extend, then perhaps the thing to be extended must be there in the first place. So, for me to extend my socks to cover my ankles, I need to be wearing socks to begin with.
3- If the word Khimar means head cover, then it would be a problem of redundancy over vagueness. The Qur'an would not say "use your head covers to cover your heads and chests" (by head I mean hair).-
daraba is a very polisemic root, but no, it is not extend, it is throw, put, but not extend from another place.
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khumur is plural, khimar, is any cover. On the other hand, why should any headcover be so large as to cover more than the head? It would not be a headcover, it would be a shawl.
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If God wanted head covered, unless He was really into the fashion business and introducing the khimarxwz, it would have sufficed to state plainly what he wants covered. He does say things plainly when they are straight orders or injunctions. What is the problem with cover head..., ..., ..., ... ? I am sure God knows every ressource to write plainly and clearly whatever he wants. Just as he wrote bossom he can write anything. But it seems that we are unable to assimilate that He has not done so and we try to milk this cow by hook or crook to extract hiyab butter.
Salaam
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khumur is plural, khimar, is any cover. On the other hand, why should any headcover be so large as to cover more than the head? It would not be a headcover, it would be a shawl.
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If God wanted head covered, unless He was really into the fashion business and introducing the khimarxwz, it would have sufficed to state plainly what he wants covered. He does say things plainly when they are straight orders or injunctions... But it seems that we are unable to assimilate that He has not done so and we try to milk this cow by hook or crook to extract hiyab butter.
I'm really not biased or trying to milk anything, I simply want to make sure that I am making the right decision of taking off the Hijab without being biased towards what I want. So that's why i need to make sure that there is no possible way for the Hijab being a requirement. And linguistic argument is the only thing I'm lacking right now.
So I at your statement, I'm stopping at #2. Because I still retain that if #3 is to be correct, then #2 would have to be correct. Otherwise my argument of "redundancy" could still stand.
So do you, or any of the people following this post, have any dictionary sources or names of older dictionaries of the Arabic language which could help me confirm that the word Khimar really means cover and does not signify cover of the hair at all?
Thanks again for being so patient with me
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I'm really not biased or trying to milk anything, I simply want to make sure that I am making the right decision of taking off the Hijab without being biased towards what I want. So that's why i need to make sure that there is no possible way for the Hijab being a requirement. And linguistic argument is the only thing I'm lacking right now.
So I at your statement, I'm stopping at #2. Because I still retain that if #3 is to be correct, then #2 would have to be correct. Otherwise my argument of "redundancy" could still stand.
So do you, or any of the people following this post, have any dictionary sources or names of older dictionaries of the Arabic language which could help me confirm that the word Khimar really means cover and does not signify cover of the hair at all?
Thanks again for being so patient with me
If you are currently wearing hijab, and are considering taking it off, then why do you feel it is a big one-time, irreversible decision? Even if you take it off, you are totally free to start wearing it again whenever you choose.
Is it that you feel that your current surrounding is such that you really need to have strong arguments for what you are doing? In my experience, this is a little bit like fooling yourself, if this is so. Other people may or may not accept your arguments no matter how strong or obviously truthful they are. Sometimes it is rather about trying to convince our own insecure selves. I'm not saying this is what is happening to you, but I know from own experience that it happens to human beings, and it is nothing unusual, but it can be hard to detect.
Peace and bet wishes!
sun -
I'm really not biased or trying to milk anything, I simply want to make sure that I am making the right decision of taking off the Hijab without being biased towards what I want. So that's why i need to make sure that there is no possible way for the Hijab being a requirement. And linguistic argument is the only thing I'm lacking right now.
So I at your statement, I'm stopping at #2. Because I still retain that if #3 is to be correct, then #2 would have to be correct. Otherwise my argument of "redundancy" could still stand.
So do you, or any of the people following this post, have any dictionary sources or names of older dictionaries of the Arabic language which could help me confirm that the word Khimar really means cover and does not signify cover of the hair at all?
Thanks again for being so patient with me
Salaam Nour,
No, I do not think that I have been "so patient", rather the opposite. I must admit that so much bandwidth and so much ink spent on this piece of clothing over the years tends to warm me up and not in the best of senses. But I acknowledge that por some women it is something that gets at them and I understand that they feel under a lot of pressure and that in turns makes me indignant. Therefore excuse my impatience.
This link
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
you may already know. It is a great means for people who do not know arabic and great appreciation is due to those who made an offer such a tool for us. You can look for any Arabic root and the words derived from it that appear in the Qur'an. and you also get access to the pages of the Lane classical arabic dictionary where they appear.
I quote the text from the root list pertaining to kh-m-r
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, a covering, something fermented/matured.
khamr n.fem. 2219, 590, 591, 1236, 1241, 4715
khumur n. masc. pl. 2431
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) with their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Lane gives some examples ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees?, ?he concealed his testimony?, "She (a woman) applied KhaMaRat as a linament, to beautify her complexion.".
"KhiMaR a woman's head-covering."
LL, V2, p 443, 444, 445, 446
At the end you see the link to the pages of the Lane dictionnary where the root appears.
As you see there is a quote of a meaning as a veil that covers head and part of the face, and it links it to a turkish usage oif a certain epoch. The thing is that Lane's does nto go back, as far as I know, to the usage at the time of the revelation of Qur'an and therefore there is no way we can know what any khimar used at the time and worn by women should cover. From the very wording of the Qur'an the mention of the khumur is too casual. It is like saying "don't make a fuss of it, just throw over the bossom anything you may have at hand (as opposed to cut and sew a particular piece of garment for the purpose)", thereby the imprecise general use of the cover, which is a general term. On the other hand, everywhere, people use loose multipurpose pieces of clothe more or less fine to throw over at convenience for anything they may want to cover, for the cold, for the sun for the flies, for looking good, for carrying babies... Any purpose clothes or cloth are used for. The thing is that God does not make a fuss of it, so why in this century, now XXI, we are obssessed with it. On the other hand all along history, men and women have tended to cover their heads. The Prophet, it seems, used to cover always his head with a turban. That, for any sunna nut would be conclusive that men should wear turbans and cover their heads, but nobody cares. So why this modern noise about women's covering of the head as if it was a sacrament wnen no suchb thing in the Qur'an is ever said?
You have your reasons and feelings and I am sorry that this kind of thing keeps so many women under stress. I hope you can sort out the whole matter and feel at peace. God, He says in the Qur'an, does not want to create difficulties for us. God, as I already said, is not short of words, and he says what he says. If I may, I would say, don't let his thing keep you awake, it is unconsequential. There are passages in the Qur'an where clothes are spoken of. Never in those passages it is said that women should have a different outlook on clothes from men, but to be comfortable and feel nice. Righteousness is the best garment, it says also.
My experience is that the insistence on the hijab has made societies where it is imposed by social pressure more hypocritical and less virtuous. It is not an hommage paid to God, who does not need that kind of hommages, but a subservience to social pressures. Do you think God is angry with women? Angrier than with men? Do you think God considers women a danger? God says in sura 4.1 reverence God... and reverence the wombs... If the hiyabis were more interested in reverencing th wombs than in their little obssessions moral would be better served. The second part of aya 24.31 is there to warn women from being exploited for their looks and to warn them from exploiting their looks themselves. It is not there to blame them for their looks nor to make them submit to a special tax because of their looks. God is loving with women in the Qur'an, tender and considerate. God does not blame women. But the list of all the subversion of holy revelations perpetrated by men to put down women is too lengthy to even attempt to make a summary. 24.31 has been turned into a jungle in order to extract from it something far from what the peace of mind of the women requires and that God provided for them.
Turn to God, not to men. Men are not substitute for the divine sweetness, although some people do transmit a ray of that divine sweetness, but do not let the world, full of noise, to come between you and the loving, kind words of God for his criatures, for you.
It is your good right to look for dictionnaries and anything, but, you do not need them. Just rest you case in God, in his transparent love for you, let him be your Peace. He knows women are good looking, and He does not order them to hide, but to remember that beauty is His, comes from Him, it is one of his attributes. It does not have to be hidden neither to be paraded nor exploited. It is His gift and one of the joys of life. Twisted indeed is th mind that sees in beauty something to be punished.
Excuse the sermon,.
Salaam
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Salaam Nour,
No, I do not think that I have been "so patient", rather the opposite. I must admit that so much bandwidth and so much ink spent on this piece of clothing over the years tends to warm me up and not in the best of senses. But I acknowledge that por some women it is something that gets at them and I understand that they feel under a lot of pressure and that in turns makes me indignant. Therefore excuse my impatience.
This link
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
you may already know. It is a great means for people who do not know arabic and great appreciation is due to those who made an offer such a tool for us. You can look for any Arabic root and the words derived from it that appear in the Qur'an. and you also get access to the pages of the Lane classical arabic dictionary where they appear.
I quote the text from the root list pertaining to kh-m-r
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, a covering, something fermented/matured.
khamr n.fem. 2219, 590, 591, 1236, 1241, 4715
khumur n. masc. pl. 2431
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) with their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Lane gives some examples ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees?, ?he concealed his testimony?, "She (a woman) applied KhaMaRat as a linament, to beautify her complexion.".
"KhiMaR a woman's head-covering."
LL, V2, p 443, 444, 445, 446
At the end you see the link to the pages of the Lane dictionnary where the root appears.
As you see there is a quote of a meaning as a veil that covers head and part of the face, and it links it to a turkish usage oif a certain epoch. The thing is that Lane's does nto go back, as far as I know, to the usage at the time of the revelation of Qur'an and therefore there is no way we can know what any khimar used at the time and worn by women should cover. From the very wording of the Qur'an the mention of the khumur is too casual. It is like saying "don't make a fuss of it, just throw over the bossom anything you may have at hand (as opposed to cut and sew a particular piece of garment for the purpose)", thereby the imprecise general use of the cover, which is a general term. On the other hand, everywhere, people use loose multipurpose pieces of clothe more or less fine to throw over at convenience for anything they may want to cover, for the cold, for the sun for the flies, for looking good, for carrying babies... Any purpose clothes or cloth are used for. The thing is that God does not make a fuss of it, so why in this century, now XXI, we are obssessed with it. On the other hand all along history, men and women have tended to cover their heads. The Prophet, it seems, used to cover always his head with a turban. That, for any sunna nut would be conclusive that men should wear turbans and cover their heads, but nobody cares. So why this modern noise about women's covering of the head as if it was a sacrament wnen no suchb thing in the Qur'an is ever said?
You have your reasons and feelings and I am sorry that this kind of thing keeps so many women under stress. I hope you can sort out the whole matter and feel at peace. God, He says in the Qur'an, does not want to create difficulties for us. God, as I already said, is not short of words, and he says what he says. If I may, I would say, don't let his thing keep you awake, it is unconsequential. There are passages in the Qur'an where clothes are spoken of. Never in those passages it is said that women should have a different outlook on clothes from men, but to be comfortable and feel nice. Righteousness is the best garment, it says also.
My experience is that the insistence on the hijab has made societies where it is imposed by social pressure more hypocritical and less virtuous. It is not an hommage paid to God, who does not need that kind of hommages, but a subservience to social pressures. Do you think God is angry with women? Angrier than with men? Do you think God considers women a danger? God says in sura 4.1 reverence God... and reverence the wombs... If the hiyabis were more interested in reverencing th wombs than in their little obssessions moral would be better served. The second part of aya 24.31 is there to warn women from being exploited for their looks and to warn them from exploiting their looks themselves. It is not there to blame them for their looks nor to make them submit to a special tax because of their looks. God is loving with women in the Qur'an, tender and considerate. God does not blame women. But the list of all the subversion of holy revelations perpetrated by men to put down women is too lengthy to even attempt to make a summary. 24.31 has been turned into a jungle in order to extract from it something far from what the peace of mind of the women requires and that God provided for them.
Turn to God, not to men. Men are not substitute for the divine sweetness, although some people do transmit a ray of that divine sweetness, but do not let the world, full of noise, to come between you and the loving, kind words of God for his criatures, for you.
It is your good right to look for dictionnaries and anything, but, you do not need them. Just rest you case in God, in his transparent love for you, let him be your Peace. He knows women are good looking, and He does not order them to hide, but to remember that beauty is His, comes from Him, it is one of his attributes. It does not have to be hidden neither to be paraded nor exploited. It is His gift and one of the joys of life. Twisted indeed is th mind that sees in beauty something to be punished.
Excuse the sermon,.
Salaam
bravo bravo bravo
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If you are currently wearing hijab, and are considering taking it off, then why do you feel it is a big one-time, irreversible decision? Even if you take it off, you are totally free to start wearing it again whenever you choose.
Is it that you feel that your current surrounding is such that you really need to have strong arguments for what you are doing?
sunI'm sure that there is a part of me that feels that way. But there is also a huge part which is too afraid of making mistakes afraid that I would "die tomorrow". Mistakes are beneficial as long as they're worth making.
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Salaam Nour,
I quote the text from the root list pertaining to kh-m-r
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, a covering, something fermented/matured.
khamr n.fem. 2219, 590, 591, 1236, 1241, 4715
khumur n. masc. pl. 2431
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) with their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Lane gives some examples ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees?, ?he concealed his testimony?, "She (a woman) applied KhaMaRat as a linament, to beautify her complexion.".
...
From the very wording of the Qur'an the mention of the khumur is too casual. It is like saying "don't make a fuss of it, just throw over the bossom anything you may have at hand (as opposed to cut and sew a particular piece of garment for the purpose)", thereby the imprecise general use of the cover, which is a general term.
...My experience is that the insistence on the hijab has made societies where it is imposed by social pressure more hypocritical and less virtuous. It is not an hommage paid to God, who does not need that kind of hommages, but a subservience to social pressures. Do you think God is angry with women? Angrier than with men? Do you think God considers women a danger? God says in sura 4.1 reverence God... and reverence the wombs... If the hiyabis were more interested in reverencing th wombs than in their little obssessions moral would be better served. The second part of aya 24.31 is there to warn women from being exploited for their looks and to warn them from exploiting their looks themselves. It is not there to blame them for their looks nor to make them submit to a special tax because of their looks. God is loving with women in the Qur'an, tender and considerate. God does not blame women. But the list of all the subversion of holy revelations perpetrated by men to put down women is too lengthy to even attempt to make a summary. 24.31 has been turned into a jungle in order to extract from it something far from what the peace of mind of the women requires and that God provided for them.
Salaam,
It takes a very patient person to listen to someone's questions and arguments. So thank you again for being patient.I understand the frustration people feel with the discussion over this topic. Unfortunately a woman's body is still political and economic grounds which is the reason why it is continually debated about. But I'm really not trying to find the ultimate truth which all women should follow, I'm just trying to find what to believe in and what to practice. It is hard thinking outside of your social situation and questioning something which everyone takes as a given fact that bares to questioning.
That being said, I enjoy the sermons because they help me balance the weight of the mainstream social discourses. I think I comprehend your perspective, I will keep mulling it over in my head until I make up my mind. Thank you for the source, it is really helpful. If anyone has any other sources, please send them my way. I'm constantly seeking knowledge and the more the better.
Thanks again!
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***Grammatical corrections... the irony.
Salaam,
But I'm really not trying to find the ultimate truth which all women should follow, I'm just trying to find what I want to believe in and what I want to practice. It is hard thinking outside of your social situation and questioning something which everyone takes as a given fact that bares no questioning. -
Thank you for your kind words, Nour.
One thing I forgot to point out and it is very important and for many in thise forum quite conclusive is that the best attempt at understanding the Qur'an is to check it against the Qur'an itself. Checking what a word may mean against other appearances of the word in the Qur'an itself, either as a verb or as a noun pertaining to the verb. In the project-root list those appearances are given for each word. So if you ever want to check for yourself, even without knowing arabic, you can do it.In the present case, khumur, plural appears only once and none the verb, so we are left with just khumur and khamr, which is wine. So we are left with the text of 4.31 itself. I point out that if we give too much weight to that khumur and supposing it was something that was meant to cover the head, what we would have would not be an order to cover the head but an order to use that particular piece of garment, whatever it is. Anything that is not the shape and the texture of those khumur would not do. The purporters of hiyab do not intend for women to use that particular garment which is mentioned in the Qur'an, if it is such particular garment, but to use any garment just you cover your head. And THAT is quite a stretch from the Qur'an, which shows that the conclusion of covering the head comes way before the reading or knowing or understanding of the Qur'an itself.
I am afraid that trying to fence with arguments with hiyab believers is a lost battle, you may reach more open and less militant people concerning that, but as far as winning the argument, you will never convince because believers of the magic of the hiyab are not there because of arguments but because of passion, blind passion. It is useless. They have found the magic remedy for all ills, and they will not give it up. It is, pointedly speaking, like khamr, it gives such a feeling of comfort, one does not notice when onw is getting inebriated. One feels free of pressure, sure, powerful and able... Yes hiyab can become blinding, mentally and litterally. So arguments do not always win.
As to the second part of 14.31, for me, it is indeed enough, because the text, as it happens with the Qur'an many times, is so disposed that it sets the tone, the level and the depth and extent of what it says.
I understand what you say as to what causes your problem in this regard. I don't know where you live and I suppose you are still young and in that regard I really feel for you. Being young it is considered to be the greatest gift for a woman, but I know how lonely, how wronged, how aggressed young women may feel many times and how the environment can be trying when one does nto conform to conventions. I hope and trust that you will get over this question with much satisfaction. You are trying to know and and that is for sure the best way to go about anything. In sha' Allah God will give you much knowledge, not from men, but from Him. Look for that kind of knowledge, and you will in time feel more deeply reassured.
Best wishes for your quest, Nour.
Salaam
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Fare thee well,
I am certain that the verse about women's dress code would be more detailed if this factor was that essential. If there was explicitly supposed to be a cover for the head the Quran would have mentioned the word for head and it does not as far as I know. And as we know God said that His book is very thorough on what is important for us to know.
As I said in a previous post, the verse about clothing is in conjunction with the verse which says that women should not strike their heels to attractively shake their bodies and with traditional muslim women clothing this is not possible since nothing will be revealed anyway. That is why I believe the whole "Islamic" clothing to be a hoax and more about ancient traditions.
A woman, as far as my understanding goes, should not provoke 'unnecessary' sexual arousal and cover private parts. This is what I think Quran wants to convey in terms of information.
The almost same command was issued for men too and there is not much difference really. Women seems to have been more directly targeted because of an innate desire to be attractive and this slight difference is present in Quran.
The whole hijab thing is an invention as much else in the man-made religion Islam. God only told people to have a decent appearance and no hocus pocus.
However, more clothes can undoubtedly cause a person to seem more modest and provoke less attraction, but God hardly meant for women to dress like ghosts to barely be recognized. Lengthen the garments was told in Quran and I suppose this is the whole purpose of the verses.
I get a feeling that where the Quran was written, the women used to dress in very revealing ways and act quite immodestly and it was to get the community's women to dress more decently that Quran pronounced that garments should be lengthened. This was later abused and became more and more absurd to include so called Burqa, Niqab and (Iranian) Chador.
So from to have been called to stop the women from being inappropriately immodest the clergymen made it into extremism with oppressive dress codes instead. So from have been uttered by God to tell women to stop being too loose it was over-interpreted to suppress women completely and say women's mere beauty is immoral and sinful.
Humans have a tendency to always exaggerate everything that they do and it is also true for religion. It is dangerous when humans start with conjecture. Reason is strangely not allowed in religion. When it comes to spirituality humans are very mentally unstable.
God bless you