Salat According to the Quran and a Critical Remark
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peace,
I dont believe glitches are person-specific.
No one here can ever invalidate my conclusions, and that is not because they are mine, it is because they are in line with the data available and the research conducted.
Unfortunately you can not verify all my argumentation, reasoning and proof, but that isnt even necessary. We are not discussing rocket science here. The subject of salaat is not the major difficult subject sola-scriptura muslims do not seem to be able to clear out because of some reason. This assumption only lives at the ignorant. With all the indicators I have left behind, anyone should be able to reconstruct what I have concluded (be it that their methodology is scientific and their knowledge of Arabic is sufficient).
Let us know when you have an evidenced rebuttal ;D
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Peace...
Guess what, its not about views and becoming a scholar means paying 10 thousand euros at least and study at a renowned university, being subjected to methodologies which have been tested and fine tuned over and over and over again, being exam-ed therein and proving ur competence.
What if those tested methodologies are not as good as you think? At least they were constructed by the same people who even stick to stupid hearsay stories which btw actually state that the earth is not round. Shouldn't this make you think?
But if you like academic methodology so much, which isn't a bad thing of course, you should love the precise methodologies you learn by studying mathematics. Mathematical methodologies are absolutely superior to those of so called human sciences which are a little wishy-washy from the perspective of a mathematician.
Brother Ayman has a mathematical Ph.D. and he draws totally different conclusions than you do. This is because in mathematics you learn to use logic in its purest form and unfortunately academics from human sciences seem to lack this logic very frequently.
Please study brother Aymans works in Arabic and let us know what you think http//www.quran4peace.org/
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Salaam,
I regret what I just wrote. Sorry for the inconvenience.
God bless you
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Theoretically speaking, knowing Arabic (which you clearly do not) would suffice to understand the quran. Would it not that Arabic
- Has been contaminated by theologic terminologization
- Has been contaminated by popular terminologization
- Needs the application of different methodologies in semitic studies to recover the meanings of many words which have been twisted by the above mentioned processes
- Needs to be approached professionally instead of by amateurs because of the above mentioned processes
- Can only be effectively understood and applied by people who are aware of the above mentioned and live up to its demands.
After these steps, the difficulties do not end. Now you have to analyze the text using a sound methdology which deals with ontological and epistemological questions, and practicing a multi-disciplinary approach (thats why the quran encourages to learn from creation in order to understand the implications of the quran) to get as much as understanding from the quran as one can.
That is very important!
@Timur,
Thank you for the link, the two parts are very interesting and good, pity there is no section about the Salat.peace
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No one here can ever invalidate my conclusions, and that is not because they are mine, it is because they are in line with the data available and the research conducted.
Unfortunately you can not verify all my argumentation, reasoning and proof, but that isnt even necessary.
I am only responding here because you sound extremely arrogant , and it shows that you didn't learned much from your conclusions .I don't know if you didn't realize that yet .
Even if you have exclusively the keys of the heaven your attitude is simply very Poor
Are you sure no one here can invalidate u'r conclusions ?
Are you sure all you conclusions are 100 % correct ?
Are you sure you miss nothing ?
Are you sure your attitude and arrogance is for someone who hold knowledge and guide people to the right path ?No need to say ad hominenm or bla bla bla cause i'll show you some of your invalid conclusions , and just to tell you most of what you concluded been said here or known by many , anyway you add nothing new to my knowledge i just feel sick when i read your arrogance and your lake of humility . do you know that what you think you posses as knowledge value nothing simply because of u'r attitude ?
Regarding u'r so called academic level which you throw here and there as reference , the one who bring and spread this message and the knowledge, which you think you are the only possessor , never put foots in a formal school !
Anyway , wait for some arguments.
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Peace GODsubmitter.
@Timur,
Thank you for the link, the two parts are very interesting and good, pity there is no section about the Salat.There is, but unforunately only in Arabic at the moment (this one http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part3.pdf). Brother Ayman has promised a translation but it is not finished yet.
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Peace GODsubmitter.
There is, but unforunately only in Arabic at the moment (this one http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part3.pdf). Brother Ayman has promised a translation but it is not finished yet.
Thank you very much for your answer.
Will wait for the English translation.@Alkitab, stop promising your promised answers in most of your posts, just give some concrete arguments please!
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Hi people!
It is better to pray alone (755, 2271), in order to prevent the susceptibility for vanity, arrogance and pride(7206). This will ease praying in humbleness and submission (231-2).
Would you kindly let us know how this experience of praying alone worked out for you? Do you think you are a more humble person now than before you did your research on salat? After all we are not only interested in what salat is but also like to know how a particular version of salat can bring in measurable changes in a person that contributes towards positive moral development.
Perhaps some day, my whole article, complete with all substantiations, reasoning and proof, will be presented here.
Until that day arrives, my suggestion would be for you to focus on the verses you have quoted above. That you have spent 1000s of Euros learning your trade is of no value to the forum members. This information contributes nothing to the discussion of salat. Instead of claiming to have used a certain methodology please share it to that we can learn from it. In the academic circles, your opening post of claiming to have found the holy grail of salat would be laughed at simply because it lacks in substance. Try getting an article titled 'I know what salat is and I will share it with the rest of you Ignoramuses soon' published in a peer reviewed journal and see how that works out for you.
If you claim to be a professional, please act like one and post your finished product. Until then, you really should not be adding anything to this thread simply because it is clear you do not have the skills to engage in a respectful debate with your fellow forum members. You should also learn the distinction between a public forum from an academic one. It was your choice to start a thread here and not the other way around. If you consider the members here to be incompetent, simply do not post and go back to your friends in the academia where livelihoods are a function of remaining politically correct and not venturing far away from the mainstream.
The only rational response to this post would be for you to post your finished article. Anything else would be construed as fftopic
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Would you kindly let us know how this experience of praying alone worked out for you? Do you think you are a more humble person now than before you did your research on salat? After all we are not only interested in what salat is but also like to know how a particular version of salat can bring in measurable changes in a person that contributes towards positive moral development.
Until that day arrives, my suggestion would be for you to focus on the verses you have quoted above. That you have spent 1000s of Euros learning your trade is of no value to the forum members. This information contributes nothing to the discussion of salat. Instead of claiming to have used a certain methodology please share it to that we can learn from it. In the academic circles, your opening post of claiming to have found the holy grail of salat would be laughed at simply because it lacks in substance. Try getting an article titled 'I know what salat is and I will share it with the rest of you Ignoramuses soon' published in a peer reviewed journal and see how that works out for you.
If you claim to be a professional, please act like one and post your finished product. Until then, you really should not be adding anything to this thread simply because it is clear you do not have the skills to engage in a respectful debate with your fellow forum members. You should also learn the distinction between a public forum from an academic one. It was your choice to start a thread here and not the other way around. If you consider the members here to be incompetent, simply do not post and go back to your friends in the academia where livelihoods are a function of remaining politically correct and not venturing far away from the mainstream.
The only rational response to this post would be for you to post your finished article. Anything else would be construed as offtopic
Hang on, is this guy saying that he knows best because he's written an academic piece on whatever he's written about. I hope not. Every idiot has a PhD these days.
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Salaam es,
This guy is knows best in the entire world. You have to listen to what he has to say.
God bless you
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Salam
The purpose of this post is simply a slight pinch for the so called academician so he may act less arrogantly , even if i am doubting that he will re-appear in this forum , even if i am sure he is using and will still using comparatively the research and the study of many knowledgeable , humble , and unassuming members in this forum . In his case i'll be ashamed to show up again , only if he change his pseudo or simply change his exaggerated disgusting arrogance
Sounds arrogant? So be it. I find it as arrogant as stating the world is round. It may insult a lot of people, that then is their problem.
Some hint you may re-think about your academic methodology and your professors
Arguments n?1
- Salat exists out of 3 physical postures; qiyam (standing), ruku3 (bowing), sujud (kneeling down) which are implemented 4 times qiyam-ruku-qiyam-sujud.
ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this positionhttp//imageshack.us/a/img23/3199/b7rk.jpg
The wrong position of ruk3/ there should be a knelling down on the ground not a 90 degree inclination .3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .
The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
http//imageshack.us/a/img138/3908/hpnb.jpg
Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?
3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)
Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?
So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground
http//imageshack.us/a/img692/6801/idp7.jpg
The position of ruk3/ there is a knelling down on the groundThe word ruk3/ contain the key element of this position , which are the two sounds / letters r and k ruk3/
http//imageshack.us/a/img834/9408/ypo7.gif
The root rk / in the action of ruk3/ are indicating the movment of the kneel /al-rkbatyen the single of rkbah / one single kneeThis root rk we find it an all action that need the movement of the kneel /al-rkbatyen ex
rakd / to run ...as you are uzing mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to run
rakl / to kick . ... as you are using mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kick something or somebody
ruku3 / to kneel .... as you are using your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kneel down@Godsubmitter , have patient and do not tolerate arrogance in any case
To be continued
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Peace Brother Alkitab
Excellent
First time explained in words, drawings and images.
Frankly speaking I do not believe, that in the Quran, all the occurences of the word Ruku and Khirr are pertaining to physical movements and my belief is based on the following verses.
And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall (PHYSICALLY) upon them deaf and blind 2573
I believe that the word FALL is used as a metaphor.
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Is success guaranteed against simply physical bowing and prostrating?
In the above verse I believe that Ruku is Humbleness and Sujud is Submission
O you who have believed, be HUMBLE and SUBMIT (to the will of your Lord) and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555
The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?
I want to know your views. Do you believe what I believe or you have your own definition of these words.
Thanks.
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Salam
The purpose of this post is simply a slight pinch for the so called academician so he may act less arrogantly , even if i am doubting that he will re-appear in this forum , even if i am sure he is using and will still using comparatively the research and the study of many knowledgeable , humble , and unassuming members in this forum . In his case i'll be ashamed to show up again , only if he change his pseudo or simply change his exaggerated disgusting arrogance
Some hint you may re-think about your academic methodology and your professors
Arguments n?1
ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this positionhttp//imageshack.us/a/img23/3199/b7rk.jpg
The wrong position of ruk3/ there should be a knelling down on the ground not a 90 degree inclination .3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .
The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
http//imageshack.us/a/img138/3908/hpnb.jpg
Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?
3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)
Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?
So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground
http//imageshack.us/a/img692/6801/idp7.jpg
The position of ruk3/ there is a knelling down on the groundThe word ruk3/ contain the key element of this position , which are the two sounds / letters r and k ruk3/
http//imageshack.us/a/img834/9408/ypo7.gif
The root rk / in the action of ruk3/ are indicating the movment of the kneel /al-rkbatyen the single of rkbah / one single kneeThis root rk we find it an all action that need the movement of the kneel /al-rkbatyen ex
rakd / to run ...as you are uzing mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to run
rakl / to kick . ... as you are using mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kick something or somebody
ruku3 / to kneel .... as you are using your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kneel down@Godsubmitter , have patient and do not tolerate arrogance in any case
To be continued
Very sharp research, thank you brother for providing this.
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Peace Brother Alkitab
Excellent
First time explained in words, drawings and images.
Frankly speaking I do not believe, that in the Quran, all the occurences of the word Ruku and Khirr are pertaining to physical movements and my belief is based on the following verses.
And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall (PHYSICALLY) upon them deaf and blind 2573
I believe that the word FALL is used as a metaphor.
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Is success guaranteed against simply physical bowing and prostrating?
In the above verse I believe that Ruku is Humbleness and Sujud is Submission
O you who have believed, be HUMBLE and SUBMIT (to the will of your Lord) and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555
The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?
I want to know your views. Do you believe what I believe or you have your own definition of these words.
Thanks.
Salam Brother ;
I expressed some of my views while studying this matter in some of my previous post linked below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604025.
The example you give regarding the verb / action khr / fall down in 2573 is metaphoric , but in 1626 and 3414 and 3824 and 1990 and 7143 and 17107 and 17109 and 1958 and the the verb/ action of khr / fall down the meaning is literal or objective , there is a physical khr / fall down that was taken place .
Yes true too in many verses the verb / action of Sujd / to porstrate , ruk3 / to kneel , 9iym / to stand up , are metaphor , being metaphoric do not mean virtual or abstract , the word when it is used metaphorically it keeps the innate indication .
The innate indication of the Arabic verb / action is unattached and inherent through all its stages of development from the very simple elementary interaction level (1) between the human and the nature through the indication of the natural sounds to the usage on the social rural level (2) , and then finally to the urban level (3)
logically speaking the literal meaning of a word is always preceding the metaphorical usage of the same word , and that the metaphorical meaning certainly always hold the innate indication of the literal physical usage of that word
The key to distinguish when the verb / action is used literally or metaphorically is through 1-the indication of the words and 2-the context of the speech for ex the verb action Sujd / to prostrate
***1- the indication of the words ***
the verb / action in the verses below is literal or physical , because the verb used is "tla , yatlo , tilawah / recite , recitation" , which literally mean to recite , the verb "tla / to recite" is different then the verb " QarA / to read ) the first one is physical level it is about pronouncing the qur'an only , while the verb " QarA / to read ) is about linking the meaning , about getting to the understanding which is a intellectual level
***exemple 1
17107 (Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited to them / ytla , they fall upon their chins in prostration,)
The prostration / Sujd her is physical because the verb used is with a physical indication recited to them / ytla , notice also the word chins which is a extra physical indication .
***exemple 2
1958 (Those were the ones upon whom Allah bestowed favor from among the prophets of the descendants of Adam and of those We carried with Noah, and of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them / ytla , they fell in prostration and weeping.)
1958The prostration / Sujd her is physical too because the verb used is with a physical indication recited to them / ytla , notice also the word weeping which is a extra physical a indication .
***exemple 3
3113 (They are not the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing , reciting / yatln the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating ).
Also The prostration / Sujd her is physical because the verb used is with a physical indication reciting / yatln . aloso the mentioning of during periods of the night which is a the physical aspect is a extra indication that The prostration / Sujd is physical too.
Conversely when the word The prostration / Sujd is mentioned with the verb " QarA / to read ) do not indicate a physical action but a intellectual prostration
** exemple 1
8421 (And when the Qur'an is read to them / QrA , they do not prostrate)
** exemple 2
7204 (When the Qur'an is read / QrA , listen to it and pay head that ye may receive Mercy.)
Also The prostration / Sujd her is intellectual because the verb used require intellectual work , so the prostration here is at the level of the heart , they listen to the reading / QiraAh( the linking between the words to form the meaning wanted ) , the verse didn't say they listen to the recitation / tilawah as they are with different meaning .
** exemple 3
7518 (And when We read it / QrAnah, follow thou the reading / QrAnh)
The messenger was asked to follow the reading , if someone follow the reading then he is about prostration intellectually to the one who read it ( in this case the reader al-QarA / is Allah )
***2-the context of the speech ***
** exemple 1
4102 (And when you are among them and lead them in prayer ( salah ) , let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.)
From the context of the speech the prostration / sujd here is physical as it is talking about a war situation when if the believers prostrate down they will miss and lose attention of what is going around , so they verse is asking another party to watch their back .
** exemple 2
4137 (And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah / asjud l allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.)
From the context of the speech the command here about the prostration / sujd is about a physical prostration because the context of the speech do explain that , the verse in the beginning talk about the moon and the sun and forbid prostrating to them , it is clear that the prostration to the sun and the moon is physical because neither the sun or the moon have a intellectual commands or a speech so people will intellectually prostrate to it , so it is evident that some people use to prostrate physically to the sun , we read that also from the story of Abraham / abraheem ( s) apparently they used to prostrate to the sun the moon ..contently specking the command that come after that context is about physical prostration .
http//imageshack.us/a/img10/5467/vlfr.jpg
Babylonian sun-god Shamashhttp//imageshack.us/a/img32/1155/703v.jpg
EgyptTo be continued ...
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ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this position3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .
The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr
Peace,
This is the only verse you have mentioned where both 'khr' and 'rkian' are mentioned. The active participle 'rkian' further explains how he fell.
The action of someone falling can occur in many ways. A person may fall from a standing position or by bending/bowing. There is no reason to doubt he fell bowing forward. It is certainly possible if one is in a conscious state of mind.
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?
This verse only mentions 'khr' and does not provide any information on how the building fell. It just fell. We cannot extract any information regarding 'rukuh' from this verse, unfortunately (
3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)
Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?
Again we cannot make any conclusions regarding the 'rukuh' by simply looking at 'khr' in this verse simply because there is more than one way to fall to the ground. In this case Solomon was in a state of unconsciousness therefore, he will fall differently from someone who is in a conscious state.
So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground
Not necessarily. We cannot arrive at the meaning of 'rukuh' from these verses as verses that ONLY contain 'khr' do not provide us with any information about 'rukuh'.
Man A fell to the ground. --> This does not provide any information about how the man fell.
Man B bowed and fell to the ground --> The sentence provides information on how the man B fell.It will be illogical to assume from the 2nd sentence than man A also fell to the ground bowing.
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Peace,
Salam ,
I am not trying to convince you because you already did your choice regarding this subject as i read through your post , and that wasn't your purpose anyway.
This is the only verse you have mentioned where both 'khr' and 'rkian' are mentioned.
So what ? Is there any connection between being mentioned once and the understanding i presented ? in fact it is being mentioned exactly only once and in that particular place and event for one major point is to show us that ruk3/ is kneeling down on the ground not 90 ? inclination . This is the only verse on teh whole qur'an if you want to examine , understand how physically is the movement of ruk3/ . I personally choose the understanding provided through this unique mentioning of khr = fall down and ruk3 = kneeling .
The active participle 'rkian' further explains how he fell.
There is nothing such as 'rkian' in that verse 3824 , the word is written like this / raki3 , do you see any n , this n is a tune fabrication added during the Abbasid era http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunation
The action of someone falling can occur in many ways. A person may fall from a standing position or by bending/bowing. There is no reason to doubt he fell bowing forward. It is certainly possible if one is in a conscious state of mind.
Honestly I do not see any valid arguments here man , what your wrote is about a choice not an argument , you choose to understand that the term khr / fall down mean a modest gentle inclination , in your choice its a movement of bowing 90?.
Study the whole qur'an about the usage of the verb khr fall down if you are certain that it mean a gentle inclination not a fall down in the ground then we are simply wasting our time with this discussion, and in my modest opinion it will be about a personal choice not a argumentation justification
This verse only mentions 'khr' and does not provide any information on how the building fell. It just fell. We cannot extract any information regarding 'rukuh' from this verse, unfortunately
If this "unfortunately " you expressed is for me ? then you do not need to as i do not feel so ...i feel )
Anyway , here it is how the building fell , stated in the same verse
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
http//imageshack.us/a/img443/4426/hqhh.jpg
This building was distracted from it's foundations , what will happen to the roof ? you sure you cannot extract any link between the roof fall down and Solomon fall down using the same verb khr ?http//imageshack.us/a/img841/9796/96z4.jpg
A building taken from its foundations , does it look like is inclining in a 90?( bowing ) or fell down on the ground ( kneeling ) ?
Again we cannot make any conclusions regarding the 'rukuh' by simply looking at 'khr' in this verse simply because there is more than one way to fall to the ground. In this case Solomon was in a state of unconsciousness therefore, he will fall differently from someone who is in a conscious state.
For more precision you better use I instead of WE ....so you should write ( I cannot make any conclusions regarding....)
Where did you read in 3824 that Solomon was in unconscious state ?
Look when Moses was in a unconscious state how the qur'an described the fall down ( khr)7143 (And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell down in a swoon / khr sa3iQa. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."
Not necessarily. We cannot arrive at the meaning of 'rukuh' from these verses as verses that ONLY contain 'khr' do not provide us with any information about 'rukuh'.
Because you choose to not formulate the connection , What you are saying here is a choice , your choice . I studied and then learned a evident connection between the verb 'khr' fall down and the command of ruk3 in 3824 , i saw the connection convincing then i choose this way of analyzing , and i believe nowhere in the qur'an you can get to a even slight hint regarding the physical way of the movement of ruk3 except the key word which is khr / fall down and the connection with the verse 3824 and 1626
Lets not waste time and energy unless you have a solid studied valid arguments , and finally lets study together friendly
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Salam ,
I am not trying to convince you because you already did your choice regarding this subject as i read through your post , and that wasn't your purpose anyway.
There is no need to get personal, mate. I am not sure which of my post you read but you are right. I disagree with the basic premise of your post as I do not believe in ritual prayers. The primary reason I chose to reply is to demonstrate how illogically developed arguments can lead to wrong conclusions.
So what ? Is there any connection between being mentioned once and the understanding i presented ? in fact it is being mentioned exactly only once and in that particular place and event for one major point is to show us that ruk3/ is kneeling down on the ground not 90 ? inclination . This is the only verse on teh whole qur'an if you want to examine , understand how physically is the movement of ruk3/ . I personally choose the understanding provided through this unique mentioning of khr = fall down and ruk3 = kneeling .
I will keep this discussion focused and demonstrate the logical fallacy of your argument.
The discuss is about the act of bowing down in ritual prayers. Lets take this verse
http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_43.png 243
Everyone who has any interest in the subject of salat is aware of this verse. Does this verse contain the word 'khr' or any derivative of 'khr'? NO
Is there any verse that talks about salat and 'rukuh' also contains the word 'khr'? NO
So there is no act of falling down with respect to the word 'rukuh' being used solely in the verses that talk about ritual prayers. Again, to reiterate the word 'KHR' is not used in these verses.
In 3824, David is doing both one after the other and the words explain his actions. He first http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. The words clearly explain the events and the causality of falling down which is http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503
There is nothing such as 'rkian' in that verse 3824 , the word is written like this / raki3 , do you see any n , this n is a tune fabrication added during the Abbasid era http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunation
OK but I don't think it affects the discussion we are having here.
Honestly I do not see any valid arguments here man , what your wrote is about a choice not an argument , you choose to understand that the term khr / fall down mean a modest gentle inclination , in your choice its a movement of bowing 90?.
Study the whole qur'an about the usage of the verb khr fall down if you are certain that it mean a gentle inclination not a fall down in the ground then we are simply wasting our time with this discussion, and in my modest opinion it will be about a personal choice not a argumentation justification
NO you are missing the point. I take issue with your use of 'KHR' to explain 'RUKUH' in verses that talk about ritual prayers such as 243. 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS HAVING DIFFERENT MEANINGS. You simply cannot extrapolate back your understanding of 3824 because 2 actions happen in this verse as opposed to only 1 in verse 243. KHR means falling down but that does not mean http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=660 should now be interpreted as falling down in 243.
If this "unfortunately ( " you expressed is for me ? then you do not need to as i do not feel so ...i feel )
Anyway , here it is how the building fell , stated in the same verse
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
http//imageshack.us/a/img443/4426/hqhh.jpg
This building was distracted from it's foundations , what will happen to the roof ? you sure you cannot extract any link between the roof fall down and Solomon fall down using the same verb khr ?http//imageshack.us/a/img841/9796/96z4.jpg
A building taken from its foundations , does it look like is inclining in a 90?( bowing ) or fell down on the ground ( kneeling ) ?
And how is this related to a verse like 243 that talks about ritual prayers? Show me a verse that contains the word 'KHR' and also talks about ritual prayers?
For more precision you better use I instead of WE ....so you should write ( I cannot make any conclusions regarding....)
No need to get personal )
Where did you read in 3824 that Solomon was in unconscious state ?
Look when Moses was in a unconscious state how the qur'an described the fall down ( khr)Please read my post carefully. I am referring to 3414. Focus on the word http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=55256
It is clear Solomon is in an unconscious state. You need to think through this more carefully. Did Solomon fall down after 'r kf ayn'? NO.
So this verse should be irrelevant to the discussion of discussing what 'r kf ayn' is in ritual prayers.
Ritual prayers are performed by living people. This verse does NOT contain the word 'r kf ayn'. Also, there is no verse that talks about ritual prayers mentions the word 'KHR'.
Do you now see the logical fallacy of your argument?
7143 (And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell down in a swoon / khr sa3iQa. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."
What does this verse have to do with 'r kf ayn' and ritual prayers? You simply do not get that 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' are two distinct root words that have their own meanings.
Because you choose to not formulate the connection , What you are saying here is a choice , your choice . I studied and then learned a evident connection between the verb 'khr' fall down and the command of ruk3 in 3824 , i saw the connection convincing then i choose this way of analyzing , and i believe nowhere in the qur'an you can get to a even slight hint regarding the physical way of the movement of ruk3 except the key word which is khr / fall down and the connection with the verse 3824 and 1626
Lets not waste time and energy unless you have a solid studied valid arguments , and finally lets study together friendly
Again, in 3834 David http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. 'r kf ayn' leads to a fall which is what is being depicted in 3824. THAT DOES NOT MEAN 'r kf ayn' IN ISOLATION should now be understood as falling down.
In 243 there is ONLY bowing. No fall occurs. Why? Simply because the word for fall 'KHR' DOES NOT EXIST.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
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What does this verse have to do with 'r kf ayn' and ritual prayers? You simply do not get that 'KHR' and 'r kf ayn' are two distinct root words that have their own meanings.
Again, in 3834 David http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58503 and as a consequence http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=58502 happens. 'r kf ayn' leads to a fall which is what is being depicted in 3824. THAT DOES NOT MEAN 'r kf ayn' IN ISOLATION should now be understood as falling down.
In 243 there is ONLY bowing. No fall occurs. Why? Simply because the word for fall 'KHR' DOES NOT EXIST.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
The accusative active participle is the circumstantial clause for the subject of verb. This signifies that the fall was neither sudden, nor caused by external factors, but conscious move towards the Earth taking the posture of bowing.
People also deliberately fall to ground as those who prostrate
Falling of a dead body on the ground is totally a different thing.
