Worship Allah and not the Quran
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If you truly believe in God, you would have known that God preserves His Message with His Power.
He is the Most Powerful.You are avoiding my question, Quranist, how?????? if someone wants to be a Quranist deviant like you, how would you answer him.
Since you stated that Allah has preserved 100% of the Quran in the present form, how was this done? and through what means?
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You are avoiding my question, Quranist, how?????? if someone wants to be a Quranist deviant like you, how would you answer him.
Since you stated that Allah has preserved 100% of the Quran in the present form, how was this done? and through what means?
I have already answered your question dear idolator.
God preserves His Message through His Power.Quranists are deviant eh?
Do you want me to post your ridiculous Shia hadiths from Al Kafi and the likes?
You don't believe God is Powerful. That's why you keep asking how God does this, how God does that etc.
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I have already answered your question dear idolator.
God preserves His Message through His Power.Quranists are deviant eh?
Do you want me to post your ridiculous Shia hadiths from Al Kafi and the likes?
You don't believe God is Powerful. That's why you keep asking how God does this, how God does that etc.
Did i say I dont believe God is Powerful?
Sorry, i was under the impression that you belong to a school where people can reason with you..
So i go in this manner with you, you told your Christian friend, Do you know that God has revealed a message which is the true word of God.
The next question would naturally would be how? where and when?
So you give him the same answer?
Apparently you are unable to answer this question checkmate Kiddo
Call your learned teachers to a debate with me..
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Did i say I dont believe God is Powerful?
Sorry, i was under the impression that you belong to a school where people can reason with you..
So i go in this manner with you, you told your Christian friend, Do you know that God has revealed a message which is the true word of God.
The next question would naturally would be how? where and when?
So you give him the same answer?
Apparently you are unable to answer this question checkmate Kiddo
Call your learned teachers to a debate with me..
No, I don't let people reason for me. But it is YOU.
And call you a sane person to debate with me.
Why? Do you expect a person to answer "God preserves His Message by using A and putting it in BCDEFGHIJKL"?
Your question is blasphemous.Please participate
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605838.msg337936;topicseen#msg337936 -
Why? Do you expect a person to answer "God preserves His Message by using A and putting it in BCDEFGHIJKL?
Your question is blasphemous.Its not blasphemy, even at a very elementary level you cant answer my question, how and through what means was the Quran preserved in the current form?
a legitimate question to you since you said everyone is fallible.
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Its not blasphemy, even at a very elementary level you cant answer my question, how and through what means was the Quran preserved in the current form?
a legitimate question to you since you said everyone is fallible.
If you believe that God needs infallible imams to preserve His Message, you are saying that God is the same level as the idols that you worship.
God protects His Message by His Power.
How? His limitless Power. -
Its not blasphemy, even at a very elementary level you cant answer my question, how and through what means was the Quran preserved in the current form?
a legitimate question to you since you said everyone is fallible.
Laughable is your ignorance. You think you are making a point, but you are doing nothing. You are 'begging the question', in argumentation this is called 'petitio principi', which in this case your premise is not that God protects the quran, but that your imams did it.
The qur'an is protected by God, by not letting it be corrupted, by proclaiming a message which proclaiming can not be deleted from history, and which will be protected forever. Whatever means were utilized to realise this, those are subject to God, and not to imams or hadith or whatever invented historiography. God is subject to nothing.
It just needed to be written down and spread fast, before any corruption could ruin it. Who wrote it down and who spread it? The prophet did, presumably (but not necessarily) with help of his community. As for who this community was, that is a research question which must be answered, since traditionalist historiography is complete rubbish.
Answering questions like these, are difficult, if not impossible at the moment, because of the status of Saudi Arabia and other states' political reality, which doesn't allow scientists to open graves and analyze skulls, apply scientifc methods in archeology and thorough, uncensorized/unsteered textual analysis and such.
Just as the principle that God is One, the protection is a matter of logical assumption, trust and faith in God. God does not need your imams. God does not need prophets nor angels. Would He decide, he would destroy us all, and repeat the creation.
Clear scientific fact; your sect is historically distinct from the quran by many centuries. Ur premise is invalid in any case whatsoever.
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...As I said; everything regarding God in the quran is metaphorical. The same counts for 'speech'. As I said before, the quran informs us it is 'inspired', it is not dictated. God never spoke to Moses literally, there is no change in Gods sunna. The 'conversation' was inspired...
Highlight is from me.
How about when GOD wrote into stone tablets and Moses carried them down to his people, is this metaphorical too?
Peace,
Khalil -
Highlight is from me.
How about when GOD wrote into stone tablets and Moses carried them down to his people, is this metaphorical too?
Peace,
KhalilSalam
The question has a premise, which is 'God wrote to stone tablets'. Did He?
God doesn't 'write', He inspires. And the inspiration is not cast unto stone, but into people.
In 8719 that what Moses 'received' are called 'suhuf' (pages), and the same is stated for what he 'received' in 536 and 8719.
Other scriptures are described as such as well, like in 20133 and 8718.
The quran is described as such too, as in 8013 and 982.
In 7145, 7150 and 7154, what was given Moses is described as 'plates' or 'tablets', but, in 8521-22 the quran is described as the same, a 'plate' or 'tablet', stressed by the words 'well preserved', which is precisely the alluded meaning of this kind of metaphorical speech. The difference between plural for Moses' scriptures, and singular for that of Muhammad, is that Moses got parts of the universal inspiration of God, and Muhammad got its culmination.
In 7145 it is stated that that which was 'given' to Moses, is encompassing 'instructions' and 'explanations for all things', just like the quran describes itself repetitively. This invalidates the assumption that the 'plates' only consisted out of 10 commandments.
Tablets means 'well preserved texts'.
You have to continue deprogramming yourself from traditionalist terminology and conceptualization.
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So you will come up with me that verse We have revealed it and We shall safeguard it?
Explain to me how Allah safeguards His message?
highlight above is frm me.
Even though you hard headed stubborn sectarians don?t seem to get convinced by any logical reasoning and just dogmatically stick with your forefathers religious inventions, I hereby refer you to a few verses of The Qur?aan regarding your already and very frequently answered QUESTIONS.
1st The prophet, pbuh was not infallible. See the two verses below among many others. The only infallible is GOD, the Almighty Himself.
4719
So know (O Muhammad) that there is no God save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest
482
That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,
2nd The Qur?aan has been preserved through memorization generation after generation, continuously from the first day of its revelation by millions of people all over the world up until today. See 2949 below.
But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny Our revelations save wrong-doers.
Khalil
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Salaam,
The Quran is not as metaphorical as to that tablets Moses carried were not real or that he was inspired anything he wrote down. Stone tablets were common material for scriptures at the anticipated time of Moses and it was likely on tablets the Torah was written. It was not like you could carry a load of tablets with you back then, especially in a mountain environment. The Torah most likely consisted of only a few pages and not more. It was here the ancient set of rules commonly referred to as "the Ten Commandments" originates. Moses received a physical scripture and it is said that Moses is the only Prophet who met "face to face" with God (although he could of course not see Him and God has no face). By face to face I mean that God Himself directly talked to Moses and it was not just inspiration as in the case of Muhammad.
And do not come here and talk about metaphorical speech such as hand of God or word of God, because certainly most people understand that God does not literally mean His hand.
How God's inspiration works I am fully aware of and nothing more needs to be explained.
Regarding allegories; God tells us relatively clearly when he is using an allegory and most events presented in Quran are not allegories and rather were actual ones. Metaphorical speech is required in some instances such as 'hand of God' to make Quran comprehensible.
My understanding of religion is from my own research and studies of Quran. I have worked hard to detach myself from traditionalism and it is not an issue. My picture of Islam is based on my studies and there is little traditionalism I believe in if any. When I talked about Moses above it is based on my comprehension of Quran and logical deduction and some philosophy. When I use qualified guesses I say so.
It is difficult to say something with 100% certainty when it comes to religion due to distortion both in history and interpretation of Quran. Words have changed meaning over centuries. By help from God one can see through the corruption though.
Edit And God did not use His "hand" to write the scriptures. The Prophets wrote the inspired words down, and Moses possibly wrote down words directly from God. Exactly how it was done is never told in Quran. It is not relevant even if one might be curious about it. It is quite clear from Quran that Muhammad wrote the Book from the context and it was inspired to him. How inspiration works I am blessed by God to know about. Praise to Him.
God bless you
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I extensively wrote a reaction to you, posted it, looked at it, and now its gone.
If the moderators practice censorship, it would be nice to know.
I will not write here anymore accordingly.
Wish everyone good luck!
As for you Man of Faith; I leave u with the information that you are wrong on almost all points in your post.
A short summary of what was deleted
There are no stone tablets, you copied that concept from the Torah. Your reasoning too is based on baseless assertions and hastily assumptions.
God never directed 'Himself' to Moses face to face. God never 'talks', let alone 'face to face'.
The quran never states when allegories are used and when not, except in great exceptions.
Your detachment from traditionalism has never taken place, on the contrary, u are confirming it by adopting it in your methodology by referring to judaism and sunni traditionalism, which was partly based on that. The only difference is that your methodology is (slightly) different.
It is difficult to state something with 100% in religion, cause of allegory, not cause of distortion in history and contamination of language. Your statement betrays you encompass distorted history and contaminated language into religion.
You are NOT aware of divine inspiration, u CAN NOT be and u never will. This is because it can not be explained in scientific formulae, it can not be confirmed objectively. Feeling, guts, is no proof.
The question if God literally wrote and handed something down or not, is very very very very relevant. It has direct implications for the core monotheist principle of islam. Your allusions are a clear tendency to idolatry.
Abovementioned arguments are unsubstantiated, I know. But I am not going to repeat myself, it is up to you to ponder on them.
Good luck!
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I extensively wrote a reaction to you, posted it, looked at it, and now its gone.
If the moderators practice censorship, it would be nice to know.
I will not write here anymore accordingly.
Wish everyone good luck!
I've lost at least three posts on this thread today too. I don't know what's going on. Could an administrator or moderator explain please?
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam Nazzam,
Although I have read the Bible, what I said was not from it. And what was Moses really doing on that mountain in that case, sightseeing? I think you are the one making assumptions. All I said is based on what I have read and understood. The Torah is this Knowledge Moses got and which also Jesus taught later on in refined ways and other Messengers before that.
Do you think Quran is that gravely misinterpreted on all major points as to where Moses was or what he was doing? I doubt that.
The person who is actively guided will surely "feel" this. It is the inspiration we are talking about.
The detachment has taken place, I am not bound to most traditional ideas about Islam, but I can not deny things which coincide with the truth.
The Quran is not using allegories except on certain occasions. God Himself states that.
I used metaphors myself when I said face to face in case you could not understand that. He was not "speaking" to Moses in a normal sense. Why do you assert that I believed that?
Hence why I exclaimed my remark on your arrogance in the other thread.
God bless you
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Salaam,
Actually the sword of tashayyu did reply to Nazzam's rebuttal to his/her post but the Shi'ite post also lost.
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illuminati made arabic dictionary
there no god but allah all i know allah is not god get it
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Peace,
Moses is a Jewish fiction, as is all the Jewish religious fantasy labelled the bible, old or new, that vile religion has contaminated billions of minds with its worthless nonsense and continues to do so, robbing souls of any truth, removing reason and instilling, dogma, indoctrination and immorality. I was forced to comment when i saw religious cock and bull being exchanged as if it was any semblance of truth, the Torah/bible was a fiction originally and the new addition was a fiction added to make slaves of the stupid, turned from a covenant (a formal agreement of legal validity, very un-Islamic) into a testament (last will disposing of property," from Latin testamentum - a will, publication of a will will means to wish) from a legal agreement (harmonize in opinion ) into a legal wish (to want; desire; long for), it has caused so much misery, ignorance and death, don't insult the victims of that genocidal belief system by perpetuating the stench of Jewish fantasy and bullshit.
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Abdun Nur,
I take it you do not believe in Quran either then, seeing the common interpretation of it acknowledges Moses (Musa) as a person.
Even my interpretation acknowledges Musa as a person who brought knowledge to man in terms of an instruction, a decree. However, I can agree much of what has been told about him is a lie, e.g. he did not kill a man but tried to convince people of his prophethood, but failed and had to flee.
Judaism was corrupted gradually over time between 2000-3000 years ago due to religious scholars, but it was once something else than what it is today, and even 1500 year ago.
Originally Judaism was not a religion or sect but the word Yahod (Jew) stands for someone who has realized the path or way, they have it before them, it is an identification tag based on their condition. Just as intended, a person who has realized the truth concerning their existence does abstain from the world according to the law of Musa, because they know satan goes through the points made in it.
Later Jews made it into a Pagan cult, one too absorbed with a deity that they even circumvented the old decree for the sake of pleasing that deity as was showed in a comment by Eysua/Isa/Jesus when saying "Do you forsake the decree for the sake of your traditions?"
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
peace,
the religious invention moses is not mentioned within the qur'an, it is misinterprested in the translations, but that does not make it a reality.
Judaism was a corruption from the outset, as all religions are.
The English word Jew from Middle English Gyw, Iewe. These terms derive from Old French giu, earlier juieu, which had elided (dropped) the letter "d" from the Medieval Latin Iudaeus, which, like the New Testament Greek term Ioudaios, meant both Jews and Judeans / "of Judea". The Greek term was originally a loan from Aramaic Y'hdi, corresponding to Hebrew , Yehudi (sg.); , Yehudim (pl.), in origin the term for a member of the tribe of Judah.
Moses is a proven myth, no evidence exists to support the fantasy. http//www.stellarhousepublishing.com/didmosesexistreview.html
"Moses is myth historicised, not history mythologised. The captivity in Egypt, the mass flight of the Jewish people, the plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, the 40 years in the Sinai Peninsula, the Jewish conquest of the Promised Land - none of these fabled events actually occurred."
Just like hadith which are a list of do's and don't's prophets, messenger, gurus, saints, or whatever crutch is invested in are used to remove reasoning, and conclusion to correct action. A child mind will seek an authority to dictate upon them, as they do not feel capable or adept enough within themselves to make decisions; the soulless (psychopathic) will dominate souls that seek the authority of others, if souls don?t wish to reason for themselves and remain locked in the child mind, if they simply desire to know only lies, if they don?t want the truth to be explicit or implicit, this allows the soulless to work at both ends of the dichotomy of any subject, they go to the extreme ends while the truth is in the middle. So for example they created myriad religions in the past, and many of these religions are still suffered, religion is a hierarchy designed to subjugate consciousness to the will of those in control of the hierarchy of that religion, a small amount of truth is mixed into religion to make it seem truthful.
The abhorrent Jedidiah, who you would know as Solomon, was king of the Jews, the Jews at that time were a small band of soulless psychopaths that roamed the deserts of the middle east, Jedidiah built a temple to Melech, Jedidiah was the master of the soulless (psychopaths referenced as jinn people with a hidden nature) of his age, allied with the Moabites, Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Ammonites, and all worshippers of Melech, and the horrors of soulless excess were indulged and the authority of hierarchy established; almost 3000 years have cycled and the idolatry remains ever stronger.
I will add jesus is also never mentioned within the Qur'an, and is equally fictional.
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Denial is fascinating. Because one does not understand and believe what fools wish one to believe in.
Jew is a language distortion of Yehed and it is from the Semitic/Arabic root Hudan which means a way or a path ahead (see guidance). As I wrote in the previous post, if one designates themselves as Jew or Yehood, it means they have grasped about the illusion of this world and seek a way out.
Musa in reality is however much different from the religious invention Musa or Moses and Musa taught a very different approach to life than what religious people are used to.
It was already believed among the people of Mesr that things were about spiritual ascension, but they attributed success with physical might, i.e. Pharaoh was the person in communion with the 'High Community. Because that is not so, the 'High Community' sent Musa as an example that "the one who is like is like" or more simplified "is who is" or "Ellah". More specifically, the one who behaves like God has God's spirit in him/her and Musa also showed that what prevents a person to be beyond the lowly nature of man are certain parameters which came to be called the Ten Commandments. Those Commandments are there to be able to fight the instinct of man, also called Satan. That is a personal venture.
And if that was true, then obviously Pharaoh had nothing to do with God, he was just another loser, lost to this world and its vanity.
And the Ten Commandments are there for another reason than what Pagans believe, i.e. to obey a vain god to show how much one worships him. They are there to know what behavior to avoid and if the law would happen to say to not kill/defeat then what you actually should do is not even being angry with anyone nor wanting to win against them. And if it says do not commit adultery, what you should do is to avoid sexual arousal at all.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel