Physical Salat (Prayer)
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Salams All,
Several years ago I was in a discussion with some brothers who decided that salat had no physical component. As that topic has come up in another discussion, I have decided to post that message of mine from then. Comments welcome.
Assalamu alaikum
Note To those who were not following the discussion, the question is that
most members of this forum agree that salat has a deeper meaning... but the debate was raised whether or not salat has a PHYSICAL component (part, not whole) as well...Ask yourself.... Do you believe in the Quran? Do you believe that it is a
book without doubt? If no... our discussion ends here... if yes... continue...Do you believe Allah's book has contradictions? Do you believe it is
unclear? Do you believe it is anything less than perfect? If yes... our
discussion ends here.. If no... continue...Now... given you accept all that, can you find a plausible explanation for
these- 4103 - After salat is COMPLETED, PERFORMED, believers still remember Allah
- 4101 - SHORTENING prayers if you fear enemy attack (DOES NOT EQUAL REFUGEE STATUS)
- 4102 - How to conduct salat in BATTLE! In a physical BATTLE, how you conduct prayer with your ARMY! And how one group PHYSICALLY takes their weapons and protects the REAR!
- 4103 - KITAABAN MAUQOOTA... salat at SPECIFIC TIMES! If there is no discrete ACT, then HOW CAN ALLAH TELL US TO DO SALAT AT SPECIFIC TIMES?
- 2238-9 - Guard your prayers and if you fear an enemy pray ON FOOT or even RIDING!
- ALL the wudu verses that do not make sense that Allah is merely asking Muslims to be "clean." It mentions it as a discrete act, before another act, salat.
- Surah Maun - Hypocrites praying JUST TO BE SEEN!
Would you call these things arbitrary interpretations? Can you claim the
Quran does not provide evidence of a physical salat? Yet these above verses an in araby mubeen, clear precise Arabic... plain for anyone who WISHES to know the truth....Just because one is disillusioned, or just because salat has been
misinterpreted today... and people just go through these ritual motions
without feeling.... does not mean one should reject the physical aspect
altogether!Salat in the physical sense also has a very positive and binding effect on
the ummah. To unify them, bring them together at specific times everyday that everyone knows and everyone prepares for... to be led by one voice, bow and kneel and stand to the words of Allah in unison. To foster the sense of community and brotherhood, foot to foot and shoulder to shoulder... even just gathering regularly with your brothers and sisters in Islam, every day... don't you see why Allah included this physical aspect in salat as well?At any rate.. I have provided you with evidence and reasoning. The rest is up to you.
walaikum assalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Please have patience and read my responses.
Salaat = learning process. We maintain this process by reciting the God's truthful reading at dawn and dusk. We can read the signs in the universe or the signs in this book, which is called one of the greatest(7435)
Here are my responses to your direct questions.
- 4103 - After salat is COMPLETED, PERFORMED, believers still remember Allah
Yes, we should ALWAYS remember the God. One of the PURPOSES of the learning process(salaat) is to remember the God. We only remember what we program into our minds, so the God tells us to maintain and guard our learning processes(salaat) at the stated times.
- 4101 - SHORTENING prayers if you fear enemy attack (DOES NOT EQUAL REFUGEE STATUS)
Yes, the learning process is done at dawn and dusk, if you are in danger, you must shorten your learning process because you need a clear mind to know what you are saying and you may need to defend yourself from the danger.
- 4102 - How to conduct salat in BATTLE! In a physical BATTLE, how you conduct prayer with your ARMY! And how one group PHYSICALLY takes their weapons and protects the REAR!
When you are with the people, or the messenger is with you, and the learning process is being maintained, half of the people will be a part of the process(salaat) while the rest stand guard. Once the first group has prostrated(heard and obeyed) the next group comes up. It would certainly be hard to do the traditional method with ak47 in your hands.
- 4103 - KITAABAN MAUQOOTA... salat at SPECIFIC TIMES! If there is no discrete ACT, then HOW CAN ALLAH TELL US TO DO SALAT AT SPECIFIC TIMES?
Yes, specific times to recite the reading(quran). Dawn and dusk.
- 2238-9 - Guard your prayers and if you fear an enemy pray ON FOOT or even RIDING!
Yes. you can engage in the learning process(salaat) on horseback, you cant do physical prostrations on a horse.
- ALL the wudu verses that do not make sense that Allah is merely asking Muslims to be "clean." It mentions it as a discrete act, before another act, salat.
Yes, but that act is not bowing on the ground. It is reciting the reading(quran).
- Surah Maun - Hypocrites praying JUST TO BE SEEN!
ahhhh, now you may be on to something! idea
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Peace brother Shuaib
I would like to discuss with you regarding PHYSICAL SALAT. But before I do this I would like to remind you of some very important verses of the Quran which clearly nullifies all the PHYSICAL SALAT, the 2.5% ZAKAAT, the HAJJ rituals and many other things followed by the Muslims and NOT FOUND in the QURAN
PATIENTLY READ THE FOLLOWING VERSES
And this is a blessed Book (the Quran) which We have sent down, so FOLLOW IT and fear Allah, that you may receive mercy 6155
Allah confirms that HE has SENT DOWN Quran ONLY.
Say thou what thing is the greatest in testimony? Say thou Allah is Witness between me and you, and this Quran hath been REVEALED unto me that I may thereby warn you and whomsoever it may reach. Would ye indeed testify that there is another god together with Allah? Say thou I testify not. Say thou verily He is the One God, and I am quit of that which ye associate.
619Prophet confirms that THE QURAN is REVEALED unto him
Now then for that (reason) call (them to the Faith) and stand steadfast as thou art commanded nor FOLLOW thou their vain desires; but say "I BELIEVE in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is Our Lord and your Lord. For us (is the responsibility for) Our deeds and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together and to Him is (Our) final goal. 4215
Prophet BELIEVED in the BOOK (QURAN) that was SENT DOWN
FOLLOW thou that which hath been REVEALED unto thee from thy Lord no god is there but He; and turn thou away from the associaters. 6106
And (O Muhammad SAW), FOLLOW the INSPIRATION sent unto you, and be patient till Allah gives judgement. And He is the Best of judges. 10109
Allah COMMANDS to the prophet to "FOLLOW what is REVEALED / INSPIRED to him"
Say "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of Allah nor do I know what is hidden nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but FOLLOW what is REVEALED to me." Say "Can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not? 650
If thou bring them not a revelation they say "why hast thou not got it together?" Say "I but FOLLOW what is REVEALED to me from my Lord This is (nothing but) lights from your Lord and guidance and mercy for any who have faith. 7203
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us say "Bring us a Reading other than this or change this." Say "It is not for me of my own accord to change it I FOLLOW naught but what is REVEALED unto me if I were to disobey my Lord I should myself fear the Penalty of a Great Day (to come)." 10;15
Prophet confirming " I FOLLOW what is REVEALED / INSPIRED to ME."
FOLLOW what has been SENT DOWN unto you from your Lord, and FOLLOW NOT any patrons, besides Him (Allah). Little do you remember! 73
Allah commands the BELIEVERS to "FOLLOW what HE has SENT DOWN"
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a BOOK the VERSES whereof are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED. (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed, 111
The verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED
SUMMARY
The only revealed / inspired / sent down BOOK is QURAN Only.
Prophet commanded to FOLLOW Quran Only
Prophet FOLLOWING Quran Only.
BELIEVERS commanded to FOLLOW Quran Only.
Verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED.If you claim that there are 5 times prayer (PHYSICAL) then you are UNKNOWINGLY accusing Allah for lying because HIS VERSES which are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED, does not contain the details of PRAYERS, ZAKAAT, etc.
You are accusing the prophet of FOLLOWING that, which is NOT REVEALED to him.
From where did the prophet have the details of the PRAYERS, ZAKAAT etc?
Who REVEALED / INSPIRED to the prophet the details of the PRAYERS, ZAKAAT etc. not found in the Quran?
Which BOOK was the prophet FOLLOWING other than the REVEALED QURAN?
You are UNKNOWINGLY disobeying Allah (73) by NOT FOLLOWING what is SENT DOWN to the BELIEVERS (Quran) and, by FOLLOWING other BOOKS for the details of PRAYER, ZAKAAT etc.
Show me ALLAH U AKBAR in the QURAN, which is a part of the FABRICATED Adhan and IQAAMAT?
Show me the verse for ADHAN for PRAYERS in the QURAN?
Do you know HOW and WHEN and WHERE the ADHAN was INVENTED / FABRICATED?
Show me the COUNT OF RAKAAH from the QURAN.
Show me the TAHIYYAT (sitting) from the QURAN
DO YOU KNOW WHEN AND HOW THE TAHIYYAT WAS INVENTED.
Show me the sending of blessings on the prophet IN THE SALAAT from the QURAN
Show me the two SALAAMS from the QURAN
Show me the 5 TIMES OF PRAYER from the QURANThe above details you will find in HADITH only.
I have proved that you BELIEVE and FOLLOW HADITH in violation of command of the verse 73 and do not FOLLOW Quran when it comes to PRAYER and ZAKAAT etc.
SHOW ME ONE AYAH, WHICH SAYS, "RECITE THE QURAN TO ALLAH" (In prayers you are reciting the verses back to ALLAH).
Our Lord! raise up unto them an APOSTLE from among them, who shall RECITE UNTO THEM Thy revelations, and shall teach them the Book and wisdom, and shall cleanse them. Verily Thou! Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. 2129
Thus We have SENT THEE unto a community before whom other communities have passed away, in order that thou mayest RECITE UNTO THEM that which We have REVEALED unto thee; yet they disbelieve in the Compassionate. Say thou He is my Lord, there is no god but he; on Him I rely, and unto Him is my return in penitence. 1330
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time) in order that THOU mightest RECITE IT TO MEN it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.
And that I should RECITE the Qur'an. And WHOSOVER receiveth GUIDANCE, receiveth guidance for his own soul, and as for him who strayeth say thou I am only of the warners. 2792
RECITE what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee AND establish Regular Prayer for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do. 2945
RECITE what is sent by inspiration AND ESTABLISH THE PRAYERS.
Do you find RECITE IN THE PRAYERS WHAT IS INSPIRED?
And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is RECITED TO THEM? Verily in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe. 2951
And when Our revelations are RECITED UNTO HIM he turneth away in his stiff-neckedness as though he heard them not as though there was a deafness in his ears. So announce thou unto him a torment afflictive. 317
And when WE HAVE RECITED IT to you , then FOLLOW you ITS (the Qur'an's) RECITAL. 7518
It is USELESS to RECITE the QURAN back to ALLAH. It is meant for RECITING to MANKIND, so that the listeners may receive GUIDANCE.
My next post to you will be based on the verses of SALAAT.
Thanks
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Salaam shuaib,
Just because one is disillusioned, or just because salat has been misinterpreted today... and people just go through these ritual motions without feeling.... does not mean one should reject the physical aspect altogether!
Good point. Could you please clarify (with evidence from quran) how it is to be 'performed'? Which of course brings me to this point here...Do you believe Allah's book has contradictions? Do you believe it is unclear? Do you believe it is anything less than perfect? If yes... our
discussion ends here..
Do you believe Allah's book is complete?... if not, then disregard my previous question.Thanks.
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salams all,
ok you guys are putting the cart before the horse. all i said was that salat has a physical aspect.
one br here tries to claim that it only means reading the Quran which does not surprise me since most of his claims are based on very tentative almost random connections.
i am not trying to say that salat as is practiced today is UNTOUCHABLE and it HAS to be done that way. I believe it was not specified in the Quran because Allah gave the Muslim ummah the freedom to choose how they wanted to do it. But there are SOME guidelines... it is a physical act that has to be done at prescribed times during the day.. and obviously it has to produce the desired results as mentioned in the Quran.
and whatever it is the muslim ummah chooses that to be, it has to be done as a consensus. you cant have random people doing whatever they see fit... even if you disagree with the consensus, you have to stick together as long as things are within the confines of the Quran.
Current salat is not AGAINST the Quran.. it's within the confines. it is the consensus of what muslims have agreed upon as the physical portion of salat. now once there IS a real ummah again and they decide to change it, i think that's ok. the main thing is UNITY. That is the whole point of performing salat in jama'a, even to the point of being in battle.
but at the very least we know it's a physical act several times a day preceeded by a physical wudu with water and with dirt if water is unavailable. the exact nature and detail of the act is to be decided by consensus by a unified muslim ummah and can be continuously altered until it provides the desired effects. no one can deny the psychological power that daily physical actions performed by a group, can have on that group. this is a provision in islam to utilize this phenomenon in a positive way.
wassalam
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salam wakas,
boy you guys sure are after specifics for some reason. i know that the quran refers to 3 specific timings... but to do 5 would not be AGAINST the Quran... but neither would 3... it just depends on what the muslim ummah as a nation through consensus decides to do.
as far as for how SPECIFICALLY to do it... obviously since it has been left open, it's just that... left OPEN. so praying in the way that is done now is acceptable too as long as it provides the results.
the point is, that it HAS a physical aspect. it is a physical action done several times a day preceded by wudu.. and it must conform to all the descriptions already provided.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
We are to hear and obey, not "make up" and obey
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salam idolfree,
We are to hear and obey, not "make up" and obey
you can do that. and we'll see how far you get. there are numerous things the Quran has specified which we are to follow, and numerous things that have been left open...
many times the Quran has asked Muslims to pay zakat.. but he didn't specify the exact amount because it was meant to be flexible depending on what the nation needs.
He didn't specify the punishments for a number of crimes... however he DID specify the punishment for adultery... why? did he just forget? did he not want it to be punished? or is it because he left it open for us to decide.
if you are only capable of being a puppet and being led by the hand to do whatever, and do not feel up to having a creative input in your system of life, then you are no better than those who claim the exact same thing to justify use of hadith... THAT is their main claim... how else will you know how to pray, how to punish drinking, etc etc etc... their claim is that the hadith specifies all those things. i THOUGHT everyone here on free minds realized that! that allah left these things open so people could use their FREE MINDS to solve these problems based upon the needs of each situation.
wakas, i dont know what you're getting at.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
many times the Quran has asked Muslims to pay zakat.. but he didn't specify the exact amount because it was meant to be flexible depending on what the nation needs.
Brother, you continue to bring unverified statements in defense of other unverified positions.
Since when does "zakaat" mean charity? Zakaat means purification and we are to maintain salaat and bring forth purification. Our job is to purify our MINDS(nafs). The word for charity that we must give is "sadaqa".
Regarding HOW MUCH, we are told by the God clearly "the excess".
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
I did not ignore your question, I only wanted to respond to that which I have an understanding of. I am not sure in my understanding of punishments. However, that does not justify salaat being left to anyones imagination. Salaat is the learning process, so we read and study at these times so we can learn. You act as if we can do cartwheels and that would be fine.
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salams,
i dont act like anything. i am merely stating what i know. as far as your suggestion for cartwheels... the thing is that though the specifics aren't detailed, 2 important things are.. guidelines, and results.
for a deeper understanding of this fact, see the following link. it's a long article, but if you ever get the time to read it, it should make sense.
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/skn/SK_05.htm
wassalam
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oh i forgot to mention this,
cartwheels are not mentioned, but neither is reading the Quran as you were suggesting. In fact, NO specific physical act has been detailed in the Quran, in terms of what salat should entail. Of course the term salat is very broad and it obviously is something done continuously in a mental sense, but it DOES have a physical manifestation several times a day preceded by wudu. WHAT that physical manifestation should be, has been left up to us to decide by SHOORA. i am sure you know what shoora is and that the Quran orders us to decide matters by shoora. anyway, further explanation of these ideas is in the article i mentioned.
ws
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
cartwheels are not mentioned, but neither is reading the Quran as you were suggesting.
Of course reading is mentioned, same verse as the timing, how could you miss it?
(177 Maintain the process(salaat) to the sun's rubbing to the night's darkness, and the dawn's reading, truly the dawn's reading is being witnessed.
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peace shuaib,
What I am getting at is if one wants to do the 5 traditional prayer, I dont mind that much BUT if they say you MUST do 5 according to al quran, I will not tolerate that until they show me the evidence.
that verse says to establish salat AND quran-al-fajr. it does not say salat IS quran-al-fajr.
You are correct, but I find it interesting it puts forth the dawn reading at the same time as fjr slw would take place. Does one do one then the other? Or are they both related? Especially since al quran is linked to slw repeatedly throughout al quran 243-45, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas, all,
You are correct, but I find it interesting it puts forth the dawn reading at the same time as fjr slw would take place. Does one do one then the other? Or are they both related? Especially since al quran is linked to slw repeatedly throughout al quran 243-45, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778
Please don't forget 4103 where we are clearly told in no uncertain terms that for those who have faith "salat" IS a timed BOOK.
Of course, a book is for reading. It kind of makes you wonder why all the arguments about "salat" when it is defined so clearly right in front of our eyes.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
