Gay and Muslim?
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I am honestly lost in the last few pages of conversations. confused
If sex is only allowed in marriage, can marriage be between two people of the same gender? Whenever I read the Quran, I only see it talking about men and women, not men and men or women and women. Why? Is it an already established fact that marriage is only between men and women? Or does it only apply to that case?
Sorry I am full of questions and no answers.
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If sex is only allowed in marriage, can marriage be between two people of the same gender?
Salam
(REFER HERE and HERE for full reasons)
GENERAL RULE The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an
Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else. (refer here and here)
Therefore, it is prohibited since there is no such things as "same-sex-marriage" in the Qur'an.
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)The word "wives" is an inference for the "institution of marriage", and the word "Except" is the "exclusion principle"; ie. which excludes all acts other than "marriages" or "those their right hands possess" as illegal; transgressions, an act that goes against the Qur'an and Islam.
This is only my personal opinion from the words in the Qur'an.
Peace peace
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Peace all
Below is the prohibition from supporting anything against the Qur'an.
Say, "Bring forward your witnesses
who will testify <- to support something against the Qur'an
that Allah has prohibited this." <- vice versaAnd if they testify <- may also include by way of hadith, mut'ah? polygamy?
DO NOT testify with them
And DO NOT follow the desires of those who deny Our verses
and those who do not believe in the Hereafter
while they equate with their Lord
(6150)None dispute concerning the communications of Allah but those who disbelieve
(404)Salam
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Salaam,
As far as I understand engaging in sexual intercourse confirms a marriage bond. The whole traditional marriage ceremony is a human invention, even though I bet there is nothing wrong in meeting and celebrating the new couple. When you have sex with a woman you cannot just leave her be, but since times have changed and there are ways to prevent conception the rules might also have changed, perhaps. Preventing conception is against nature or at least the design however. I am not writing rules or anything, simply trying to bring forth logical facts. The Quran is written according to normal (natural) circumstances where a woman becomes potentially pregnant during intercourse.
The verse 'muslims' gave an example of gives a further hint at that the marriage is only fully valid after an intercourse has been performed and even if the marriage ceremony has been celebrated but the couple has not engaged in intercourse. Also in very old tradition, like ancient, the sexual intercourse means you have confirmed the marriage and are officially married. The traditional dowry has something to do to prevent the woman from being fooled and pregnant without any guarantee in case the man just bounces off.
Now I know this is far off-topic since it is about 'Gay and Muslim?', but it was related to the previous posts. It is difficult to talk about such a politically and emotionally loaded topic such as homosexuality and especially if you are against it. I tend to be neutral or at least tolerant towards the phenomenon although it seems to be against God's ultimate design. But like I said, it occurs in nature without human intervention and can thus not be classified as against nature even if it is against the design. Gays are naturally occurring and need to be respected for it and maltreatment of them is against God in return. One might see them as a test from God how tolerant we can be.
The story about Lut is much more than only homosexuality but highway robbery and forced sex, although the story hints towards preferring men instead of women.
Considering the age when the events of Lut happened this people must have also had heterosexual engagements or this civilization would have been extinct sooner or later as no reproduction could have occurred, so it may have been homosexual harem type of activity of insane proportions and rape events. The true story is only hinted at in the Quran. The story about Lut is also one of the oldest stories of gender inequity, as the background is something like ancient Athens which was overly patriarchal to the point similar to the one in Sodom.
I think the interpretation/translation of the stories of Lut might also be inaccurate and it may be more to it than we know.
God bless you
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Muslims, you keep confusing what people -now or then, when the profet was alive- do, think or say with what God commands and enjoins. People do the things you say and God talks about the things that people do, but what people do is not necessarily what God commands, but if the do certain things, then God knows they do them and talks consequently, but God does say nowhere marriage is one thing, sexbetween woman and man is something else and they are separate things. If people separate them in deed that is what is called zani and zaniya, and they are assimilated to associators, because they erect their law instead of the law of God.
Salaam
That doesn't make a lot of sense. Sex and marriage are not one and the same surely?? Marriage denotes other things besides sex, companionship, duty, care etc. For example to marry an orphan because he or she is without a father, mother, family, protector is a good thing. The Quran speaks a lot about taking care of orphans, marriage has other factors other than sex as the precursor for the relationship.
To say sex is marriage and marriage is sex, that is too simplistic a view to take regarding sex and marriage. Yes sex takes place but it isn't the be all and end of all a marriage, not at all.
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Peace all
I will not make gay 100% wrong because there are some valid arguments (not here), and they are also arguing "Sex" is "Marriage" and therefore it should be legalized. They have their own definition and concept of "Marriage" which I quite agree with them, even though sometimes sounds too perfect and not answering to realities. What I do not agree is the parties to their marriages, a small fraction of their arguments. It is without clear authority from the Qur'an (or any other religious books, religions, laws etc) and is inconsistent with the overall system of life. It is unjust. Therefore, they can make sex in any terms and manner they like, but it is not "Marriages". This is equally applied to prostitution or mut'ah etc, it is not marriages. It is sex, and there are lawful sexual conducts, and unlawful sexual conducts. For Muslim and if we have done our duty to hear and confirm their "reasons", we just say "Enjoy Yourselves!". There is no compulsion and they are free to choose their livings, as long it is private offence** and does not harm the society.
Peace
p/s Marriage is not sex and that's why people are referring marriages as the "INSTITUTION" of marriage. Can we say the "institution" of sex?
(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)
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Peace,
Sex is marriage and marriage is sex? & o
So that means prostitutes marry everyday?
Regards,
Yuliana -
Peace,
Sex is marriage and marriage is sex? & o
So that means prostitutes marry everyday?
Regards,
YulianaYes, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. As I gave the example above of marrying an orphan, if you are well int intentioned then you are proving the orphan with care, and protection, since they are without a family. To say marriage is sex is to say marriage is all about self gratification and it clearly is not. Sex is a part of what takes place in a marriage and god has made it lawful between a husband and a wife, but it's not the one and the same. That's not usually the first thing you think of when you find a partner is it? Don't we look for companionship above all else?
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Again, again, I must say that I am talking about the Qur'an.?Where does the Qur'an approve of prostitution. It condemns it. It condemns zina, for God's sake. And prostitution, for the client as well as for the prostitute it is zina.
And the Qur'an says very well what there should be between a husband and a wife, so what is this talk about Ourely enjoyment and not this or that. Please I have no been speaking about anything but the Qur'an and the Qur'an says what it says. What you tell yourself that since you are marrying a woman you do neet to deal with her with rahma and mawadda, and you do not need to reverence the womb? I have said that several times, We have to take thw whole Qur'an and in the whole Qur'an there is plenty to say about what there must be between husband and wife. The question is that it is purported that the Qur'an follows the ways invented by men and therefore condones prostitution and the use and throw concept in sex. But clearly the Qur'an does nto do that. So why that criticism. Have I not made it very clear that I am talking exclusively about what the Qur'an says not about whoever says?
Salaam
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This is getting riciculous, in a marriage enters whatever one wants to put in. -there is nto limit, the question is what constitutes marriage to start with. When one can say that two people are married, not what they may do in their whole lives. The are married when they have engaged in sex. That is what the Qur'an makes plain.
In my previous post more about the Qur'an and love within a couple.
I can see that there is a lot of fondness for this sex is not marriage and marriage is not sex. So you can have eaach separate. Not according tot he Qur'an, because then it becomes zina, and marriage without sex is a pact, of course respectable and even necessary, but not indicative of marriage.
Salaam
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Salam..
Understood...
So based on this one ayat that are explaining "how and when to select slave girls for wife" or the punishment for a "slave girls committing adultery", you are making a conclusion that the whole ayats in the Qur'an are mentioning "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex"? Allah is only speaking about sex?
How can that be? nope
The following is the ayat you are referring to, which I still cannot understand how it is supporting your argument that the context of the ayat is explaining "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". It is totally irrelevant to your conclusion.
Please refer to the ayat and explain.
Topic Permission to marry Slave Girls
Conclusion...
It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".
Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm
Peace
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else
That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an.
So just let us keep to Qur'an
Salam
You are saying you only talks about the Qur'an.
Do you mind.. please refer me to the ayat rather than jumping from one issue to the other, ignoring all questions with blank denials or personal opinions. You have answered none from the Qur'an, and none from my counter arguments.
We all here just want to hear your reasons, from the Qur'an.
Peace
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Fare thee well,
I can see nothing wrong in the thing that huruf says. Most of it is logical to me and is supported by Quran. Otherwise you can say that common sense applies and it is the most important thing that we have as humans.
God bless you
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Salaam,
What is illogical about it? It seems like a pretty sound argument. By the way, I think huruf is a woman if I am not mistaken.
God bless you
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Salam
My mistake, "her".
You can refer here.
http//s14.postimg.org/nttgse8e9/sexissues.png
and on the issue of "causation"....
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Peace.
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This is getting riciculous, in a marriage enters whatever one wants to put in. -there is nto limit, the question is what constitutes marriage to start with. When one can say that two people are married, not what they may do in their whole lives. The are married when they have engaged in sex. That is what the Qur'an makes plain.
In my previous post more about the Qur'an and love within a couple.
I can see that there is a lot of fondness for this sex is not marriage and marriage is not sex. So you can have eaach separate. Not according tot he Qur'an, because then it becomes zina, and marriage without sex is a pact, of course respectable and even necessary, but not indicative of marriage.
Salaam
The bit in bold. Right, but that still doesn't mean that marriage IS sex and sex IS marriage. As you said when you have engaged in sex the couple are married. So you are talking about two things here, in your own words too! But by going by your definition, that marriage is sex, then it's a very loose definition. Prostitutes have sex all the time but they are not marrying their sexual partners are they???
When you start to break it down, it makes sense, but when you give the definition it is seriously flawed. So Can you accept then, that marriage and sex are not the same thing, but when sex has taken place, then it measn the couple are married and then will shape their relationship how they choose. After sex, marriage is what is established, and so the rest of it that correctly define a marriage comes in to play, the protection, care, duty etc part of it, that is what truly describes a marriage. The purely physical act does not define a marriage, it is what initiates and confirms a marriage yes, but does not define a marriage.
Can you agree with my explanation and reasoning here?
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Marriage is the long term union between two people under the eyes of god, where they are making a commitment towards each other.
Sex is a physical act between two people, either for reproduction or gratification or both, and yes a fulfillment of a duty within a marriage if we are talking about sex in a relationship here and not a one night stand. yes both have a duty towards each other, but there are other duties too, some as the marriage progresses becomes more important than sex. Then when you factor in children, your duty towards the children bring them up and taking care of them. A marriage encompasses so many other factors, it's far far too simplistic to say that marriage IS sex, you simply cannot define sex as marriage, not academically or through the reasoning backed up by Quran, it just does not work and is a flawed logic.