Gay and Muslim?

muslims

Salam..

Understood...

So based on this one ayat that are explaining "how and when to select slave girls for wife" or the punishment for a "slave girls committing adultery", you are making a conclusion that the whole ayats in the Qur'an are mentioning "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex"? Allah is only speaking about sex?

How can that be? nope

The following is the ayat you are referring to, which I still cannot understand how it is supporting your argument that the context of the ayat is explaining "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". It is totally irrelevant to your conclusion.

Please refer to the ayat and explain.

Topic Permission to marry Slave Girls

Conclusion...

It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".

Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm

Peace

huruf

So the Qur'an says to the male that their mother is prohibited to them, if it is for marriage, then what? sex is allowed with one's own mother? What is it?

Salaam

muslims

All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else

That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an.

So just let us keep to Qur'an

Salam

You are saying you only talks about the Qur'an.

Do you mind.. please refer me to the ayat rather than jumping from one issue to the other, ignoring all questions with blank denials or personal opinions. You have answered none from the Qur'an, and none from my counter arguments.

We all here just want to hear your reasons, from the Qur'an.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Fare thee well,

I can see nothing wrong in the thing that huruf says. Most of it is logical to me and is supported by Quran. Otherwise you can say that common sense applies and it is the most important thing that we have as humans.

God bless you

muslims

Salam

Sorry, I still cannot understand the logic and justification for saying "sex is marriage, marriage is sex", neither did I find any ayat in the Qur'an supporting his conclusions.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

What is illogical about it? It seems like a pretty sound argument. By the way, I think huruf is a woman if I am not mistaken.

God bless you

muslims

Salam

My mistake, "her".

You can refer here.

http//s14.postimg.org/nttgse8e9/sexissues.png

and on the issue of "causation"....

This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".

Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.

Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".

When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.

Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!

Peace.

learning_truth81

This is getting riciculous, in a marriage enters whatever one wants to put in. -there is nto limit, the question is what constitutes marriage to start with. When one can say that two people are married, not what they may do in their whole lives. The are married when they have engaged in sex. That is what the Qur'an makes plain.

In my previous post more about the Qur'an and love within a couple.

I can see that there is a lot of fondness for this sex is not marriage and marriage is not sex. So you can have eaach separate. Not according tot he Qur'an, because then it becomes zina, and marriage without sex is a pact, of course respectable and even necessary, but not indicative of marriage.

Salaam

The bit in bold. Right, but that still doesn't mean that marriage IS sex and sex IS marriage. As you said when you have engaged in sex the couple are married. So you are talking about two things here, in your own words too! But by going by your definition, that marriage is sex, then it's a very loose definition. Prostitutes have sex all the time but they are not marrying their sexual partners are they???

When you start to break it down, it makes sense, but when you give the definition it is seriously flawed. So Can you accept then, that marriage and sex are not the same thing, but when sex has taken place, then it measn the couple are married and then will shape their relationship how they choose. After sex, marriage is what is established, and so the rest of it that correctly define a marriage comes in to play, the protection, care, duty etc part of it, that is what truly describes a marriage. The purely physical act does not define a marriage, it is what initiates and confirms a marriage yes, but does not define a marriage.

Can you agree with my explanation and reasoning here?

learning_truth81

Marriage is the long term union between two people under the eyes of god, where they are making a commitment towards each other.

Sex is a physical act between two people, either for reproduction or gratification or both, and yes a fulfillment of a duty within a marriage if we are talking about sex in a relationship here and not a one night stand. yes both have a duty towards each other, but there are other duties too, some as the marriage progresses becomes more important than sex. Then when you factor in children, your duty towards the children bring them up and taking care of them. A marriage encompasses so many other factors, it's far far too simplistic to say that marriage IS sex, you simply cannot define sex as marriage, not academically or through the reasoning backed up by Quran, it just does not work and is a flawed logic.

muslims

Mothers may breastfeed their children
two complete years
for whoever wishes to complete the nursing
Upon the father
is the mothers' provision
and their clothing
according to what is acceptable
No person is charged
with more than his capacity
No mother should be harmed
through her child
and no father
through his child
And upon the heir
is like that
And if they both desire weaning through mutual consent from both of them and consultation
there is no blame
upon either of them
And if you wish to have your children
nursed by a substitute
there is no blame upon you
as long as you give payment
according to what is acceptable
And fear Allah and know that Allah is Seeing of what you do.
(2233)

huruf

Marriage is the long term union between two people under the eyes of god, where they are making a commitment towards each other.

Sex is a physical act between two people, either for reproduction or gratification or both, and yes a fulfillment of a duty within a marriage if we are talking about sex in a relationship here and not a one night stand. yes both have a duty towards each other, but there are other duties too, some as the marriage progresses becomes more important than sex. Then when you factor in children, your duty towards the children bring them up and taking care of them. A marriage encompasses so many other factors, it's far far too simplistic to say that marriage IS sex, you simply cannot define sex as marriage, not academically or through the reasoning backed up by Quran, it just does not work and is a flawed logic.

You are moving the posts. You are playing with two different meanings of marriage, one the act of taking a husband or a wife and the other the married couple seen ghrough time. I have been meaning all the time the act of marriage, that is, the act where by two unconnected become a couple, that is the act of coupling two people, and since we are understanding it all wrong, I specify being of of them a woman and the other a man. That is what we have been talking about, not the married couple along the years and this and that that we all know. Concerning the children, please read back what I have written, I have talked very clearly and conclusively about them and precisely if they exist, it is because of sex, not because of rubbing cheeks.

Salaam

learning_truth81

You are moving the posts. You are playing with two different meanings of marriage, one the act of taking a husband or a wife and the other the married couple seen ghrough time. I have been meaning all the time the act of marriage, that is, the act where by two unconnected become a couple, that is the act of coupling two people, and since we are understanding it all wrong, I specify being of of them a woman and the other a man. That is what we have been talking about, not the married couple along the years and this and that that we all know. Concerning the children, please read back what I have written, I have talked very clearly and conclusively about them and precisely if they exist, it is because of sex, not because of rubbing cheeks.

Salaam

With all due respect your explanation still does not back up your definition of marriage being sex and sex being marriage. You seem to be a little confused regarding how you define a marriage. I've never heard from anyone be they muslim or something else, that sex and marriage share the same definition. Not quite sure how you arrive at that conclusion but it isn't right, based on reasons given by myself and others who have been able to make a distinction between the two based on what we know of marriage and how it works and what it entails. Sex it sex, marriage is marriage, both serve a purpose and function, but are not the same thing.

Not sure how you cannot see that. It's very clear.

huruf

Mulsims, read over the thread.

Yulianna, you say

To say marriage is sex is to say marriage is all about self gratification and it clearly is not. Sex is a part of what takes place in a marriage and god has made it lawful between a husband and a wife, but it's not the one and the same. That's not usually the first thing you think of when you find a partner is it? Don't we look for companionship above all else?

I am shocked at this comment, it throws me back to a very "Christian" concept of sex. Sex is bad and all its connotations are bad. That is nto what God says, that is not the islamic tradition either by any length.

Sex is a very deep experience if you really ENGAGE. If you take it as a pastime, you will get the reward for desecration, because sex is not that, although it can be used for that. Just like marriage can be use for political alliances, economical alliances, escalating in society, for many things. I suppose that that is what you mean to say that marriage is beside sex or without, sex, because for sure, for many people that is marriage, damn sex.

Muslims, I am not interested in reading about slaves citing the Qur'an it makes me jump. So get a better translaiton of it. Because, as it is I am not taking any notice. But here are some ayas

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit the women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of what you have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (19)

But if ye decide to take one zawj (member of a couple) in place of another, even if ye had given one of them a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong? (20)

And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant? (21)

So what does this "you have gone unto each other" and this "solemn covenant" (mithaqan ghalidhan)stand for?

As we see it is not something that the partners do in front of anybody but going unto each other and God says to that that the man has undertaken with her a mighty covenant.

Nikah may be the public contracting (signing or searing of a contract) of a marriage, but the marriage is this going unto each other in which he undertakes a mithaq ghalidhan. So marriage is something intimate in itself, but the Qur'an instruct not to make a secret so that the contracting parties may be duly protected from the pitfalls of whatever might go wrong with or without the guilt of the parties.

And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed. (22)

Prohibited to you are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers , foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;- (23)

Salaam

huruf

With all due respect your explanation still does not back up your definition of marriage being sex and sex being marriage. You seem to be a little confused regarding how you define a marriage. I've never heard from anyone be they muslim or something else, that sex and marriage share the same definition. Not quite sure how you arrive at that conclusion but it isn't right, based on reasons given by myself and others who have been able to make a distinction between the two based on what we know of marriage and how it works and what it entails. Sex it sex, marriage is marriage, both serve a purpose and function, but are not the same thing.

Not sure how you cannot see that. It's very clear.

I amtalking about the Qur'an, not about what I have seen or not seen. For that we could have orgies and bestialism and what not. I am talking about what God, in the Qur'an, intends as marriage. You are talking about what the people call marriage. We all know what the people call marriage, it is what God's calls it what for me at least is of interest.

On the other hand, I am still shocked by the rather widespread disdain for sex as if it was something demeaning or unworthy toppled any time by so many things. Yes I am shocked. It is the one thing that even doen with the worst intention is the source of US ALL. We all come from one of those seemingly unworthy acts. We all have started in such embraces. People may have acted in them with more or less consciousness, but God, for sure, has been conscious, and has taken care that we come to the point we are at now. God tells us to be conscious of the wombs... Nut sex seems is below us. No. We put it below, we make shit out of God's real gold. Too bad for us. Yes that is marriage, that is coupling, that is the source of life. Not the sign ing of a contract. If you sign twenty thousand contracts you will not make anybody to be born. But a one night stand can... But we do not want that to be marriage. Too bad for us, we are not conscious of the wombs, not conscious of the gifts. Subhanallah.

Salaam

bookish

My homosexuality is something that has often made me question if the Koran really came from God. And I still have not been able to reconcile my faith with my sexuality.

Being gay, I can tell you that it's NOT a matter of choice. But for someone who is not gay, you can never really expect that they would understand you. They simply can't. Why? Because they are not gay.

If I tell you today - start getting attracted to guys...right now...the way you get attracted to girls - will you be able to do it? I tell you to be emotionally attracted to men and not women - will you be able to do it? I show you a picture with a hot guy and a hot girl - will you be able to stop yourself from getting attracted to the hot girl....and instead get attracted to the hot guy?

And because you will not be able to do this, what if I then announce that you have a disease and that you are abnormal and against nature? How would you feel?

These are questions that many straight guys will not have the brain cells to understand or appreciate.

On one hand I feel inclined towards the Koran for multiple reasons....and then on one hand I struggle with the fact that I'm gay...and I didn't choose to be this way. So why did God make most people straight and me gay? Why are all the laws for straight couples and nothing aboout gay couples? Why? Why? Why? Is that not unfair? Isn't God supposed to be Just?

Indeed...if I any genie were to give me the option to change a few things about myself....I would certainly change my sexuality.

Anyways...coming to the Koran...I'm quite confused. People from Answering Islam say that the Koran must be wrong because it says that there were no gays before Lot's people! Now how do you answer this? You may answer that it was LOT who said this and NOT God...and messengers are human beings like us so Lot did not have enough knowledge about the world and said this in error. I really don't know.

Sometimes I feel that the Koran is talking about bisexuals...as it talks about people LEAVING females and going for males...bisexuals can CHOOSE where they want to get sexual gratification from. I used to think there are no bisexuals until I met a few bisexual friends. They are INDEED attracted to both the sexes in the same way.

Yet some verses seem to clearly imply that homosexual acts are sins. Whenever the Koran talks about people of Lot, it ALWAYS mentions the sexual acts. A few other verses do mention other things..robbery etc...but sexual stuff remains the KEY sin.

And that's the reason why I do not plan to settle down with a guy. And that's also the reason why I am seeking a lesbian to get married to...a marriage of convenience...I want to fit in with the society. IF ONLY the Koran had approved of homosexuality, I would have lived my life my way and cared a fudge about what other people said. The Koran is also totally silent on lesbianism.

Some people argue that the Koran also does not mention any punishment for rape...so does that mean rapes are allowed? So how can you say the same about homosexual acts?

Have I found the answers? No I haven't. And I probably never will, until God chooses to reveal something to me, or until I'm resurrected.

God bless....

diamantinehoneybunch

Peace Bookish,

I had trichotillomania when I was 12. Trichotillomania is the urge to pull one's hair. I have experienced it. I couldn't help pulling my hair until I turned half-bald. I lost self-confidence and. I didn't want to talk to people. Since then I have often had depression. I didn't even know why I pulled my hair. I wanted to stop but always failed.
Now my hair looks normal although it is not as normal as before I became trichotillomanic.
I consider it as a test.

People with bipolar disorder, they often attempt suicide. And what do you think of suicide? They are also tested by God. People around them have to also help them by giving moral and mental supports to stop being suicidal.

Were you also attracted to same-sex people during your childhood? Since when did you realize that.you were homosexual? If you want to believe in God and that Qur'an is from God, do you think you can or need to struggle to overvome homosexuality?

Answering Islam? Well that website is so biased against islam. At least Qur'an never commands people to punish homosexuals as universal law.
What does the Bible say about Homosexuals? I haven't read Bible about that.

I am sorry if I have offended you.

good_logic

Peace bookish.

I am certain Qoran has all the answers you are looking for

We have revealed to you clarifying revelations, and examples from the past generations, and an enlightenment for the righteous.

Also this life s a trial for every individual

We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.

Stories and history in the Qoran are meant to teach us today, for our everyday life and was never meant only for the previous generations. Our generation, at this time of our life, needs this guidance and this kind of justice now as much as the previous generations needed them and even more. Only the true believers will hear and obey, while the hypocrites and disbelievers will try to find excuses not to follow the rules and commandments of God.

Only God is able to guide you and help you find a path that wipes out the guilt you feel. You have to put your trust in Him alone. It does not matter what we say or think.

Before we judge anyone God advises us ;

O you who believe, if a wicked person brings any news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people, out of ignorance, then become sorry and remorseful for what you have done.

God knows what is inside you heart, how you feel and how sincere you are in seeking Him.

God also is forgiver ,most merciful if you feel you have done wrong?

This is God's grace and mercy towards you. God is Redeemer, Most Wise.

Seek a true relationship with your creator.That is more important than what anyone says or thinks.then God will guide your heart.

Peace to you.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam Yuliana,

I think you must not compare homosexuality with brain disorders. It might be the case that homosexuality is innate in individuals to varying degrees. Not to be interfering but what you said to bookish seems a bit... harsh. We need to remember that homosexuality occurs in nature too and they do not have the same kind of consciousness as we do and still they are homosexual.

Like I mentioned in a previous post; this kind of phenomenon may be a test from God.

God bless you

diamantinehoneybunch

Salaam Yuliana,

I think you must not compare homosexuality with brain disorders. It might be the case that homosexuality is innate in individuals to varying degrees. Not to be interfering but what you said to bookish seems a bit... harsh. We need to remember that homosexuality occurs in nature too and they do not have the same kind of consciousness as we do and still they are homosexual.

Like I mentioned in a previous post; this kind of phenomenon may be a test from God.

God bless you

I didn't compare homosexuality to brain disorders. I just gave examples of hard tests from God.

If you want to justify homosexuality using homosexuality in animals, it is an insult to gays and lesbians because animals also practise eating babies of same species and the animals practise paedophilia so don't equate human homosexualilty with animals' nature please.

Peace

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group