Gay and Muslim?
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My homosexuality is something that has often made me question if the Koran really came from God. And I still have not been able to reconcile my faith with my sexuality.
Being gay, I can tell you that it's NOT a matter of choice. But for someone who is not gay, you can never really expect that they would understand you. They simply can't. Why? Because they are not gay.
If I tell you today - start getting attracted to guys...right now...the way you get attracted to girls - will you be able to do it? I tell you to be emotionally attracted to men and not women - will you be able to do it? I show you a picture with a hot guy and a hot girl - will you be able to stop yourself from getting attracted to the hot girl....and instead get attracted to the hot guy?
And because you will not be able to do this, what if I then announce that you have a disease and that you are abnormal and against nature? How would you feel?
These are questions that many straight guys will not have the brain cells to understand or appreciate.
On one hand I feel inclined towards the Koran for multiple reasons....and then on one hand I struggle with the fact that I'm gay...and I didn't choose to be this way. So why did God make most people straight and me gay? Why are all the laws for straight couples and nothing aboout gay couples? Why? Why? Why? Is that not unfair? Isn't God supposed to be Just?
Indeed...if I any genie were to give me the option to change a few things about myself....I would certainly change my sexuality.
Anyways...coming to the Koran...I'm quite confused. People from Answering Islam say that the Koran must be wrong because it says that there were no gays before Lot's people! Now how do you answer this? You may answer that it was LOT who said this and NOT God...and messengers are human beings like us so Lot did not have enough knowledge about the world and said this in error. I really don't know.
Sometimes I feel that the Koran is talking about bisexuals...as it talks about people LEAVING females and going for males...bisexuals can CHOOSE where they want to get sexual gratification from. I used to think there are no bisexuals until I met a few bisexual friends. They are INDEED attracted to both the sexes in the same way.
Yet some verses seem to clearly imply that homosexual acts are sins. Whenever the Koran talks about people of Lot, it ALWAYS mentions the sexual acts. A few other verses do mention other things..robbery etc...but sexual stuff remains the KEY sin.
And that's the reason why I do not plan to settle down with a guy. And that's also the reason why I am seeking a lesbian to get married to...a marriage of convenience...I want to fit in with the society. IF ONLY the Koran had approved of homosexuality, I would have lived my life my way and cared a fudge about what other people said. The Koran is also totally silent on lesbianism.
Some people argue that the Koran also does not mention any punishment for rape...so does that mean rapes are allowed? So how can you say the same about homosexual acts?
Have I found the answers? No I haven't. And I probably never will, until God chooses to reveal something to me, or until I'm resurrected.
God bless....
Thank you for this excellent, sincere and serious post!
It is hugely refreshing in this thread, polluted by some members who's only sport is to take ayats out of context and wave them to suit their narrow-mindedness...I admire your courage to speak openly about being gay, and you are perfectly right, others cannot understand it if they do not share the same inclination, you gave excellent examples.
I just wanted to say that the issue of homosexuality is not the only one that might make a person doubt if the Qur'an comes from God!
Perhaps the problem might reside in inadequate translations...A few days ago some women were punished in Saudi Arabia for driving a car. Does that mean that all other women in the world, who do drive cars, will go to hell?
Interpretations of the Qur'an might sometimes be utter nonsense...I would like to finish my post with this aya that made me think a lot yesterday, and I like it very much
Whatever you will is in accordance with GOD's will. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.
This aya is not so much influenced by the preceding one or the next one, so taken as it is, to me it means that we should be "straight-forwarded", "single-minded" and WHOLE in our will because we are always in accordance with God's will that is in us, since even the wishes are created by God as He created us too, and shaytan (devil) being the adversary, the opponent, is the one that makes us doubt and deviate from our own truth and our own nature in everything, not just in choices who do we love...
Peace
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Peace all
What really matters to Allah?
What is Allah like to see from us?
How a child can grow into an adult within 1 year?
How to grow into timber trees from seeds within 24 hours?
It is not the Sunnatullah and there is no target for becoming a Muslim.
Hijab is not the actual requirement in the Qur'an.
The actual requirement in the Qur'an is for human beings to learn, understand, and reform continuously for the better (istiqamah - changes from within ourselves comes first - roots of a tree).
It is the process of understanding that matter, not the end results (comparison - how can one expect to be free from shirk within a short period of time? Impossible!). Therefore it doesn't matter or less relevant to Islam if peoples wear Hijab or not, since it is not the real issue in Islam. In fact, it is the most irrelevant issue to the society (it is personal issue - 5105).
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah
are the deaf and dumb
who do not use reason <- The importance of reason, and not becoming a robot (blind follower)
(822) (trees without roots - how long can it hold straight on the ground?)The struggling and going is the goal, and it doesn't matter where we start (or end), as long as we start somewhere and keep on improving our life and strengthening our faith.
and I suddenly remember this song, quite inspiring.. )
Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.Salam handshake
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Salaam Yuliana,
If we did not have some "pre-programmed" barriers we would be pedophiles too. If we are honest, many male humans are turned on by very young females barely of breeding age, but because we have our conscience we put strains to ourselves. It is instincts which drives us to this the same as in animals which do not possess conscience as we do.
That ought to explain your question at least about pedophilia. I know it is disgusting, but it is at the same time the truth.
God bless you
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My homosexuality is something that has often made me question if the Koran really came from God. And I still have not been able to reconcile my faith with my sexuality.
Being gay, I can tell you that it's NOT a matter of choice. But for someone who is not gay, you can never really expect that they would understand you. They simply can't. Why? Because they are not gay.
If I tell you today - start getting attracted to guys...right now...the way you get attracted to girls - will you be able to do it? I tell you to be emotionally attracted to men and not women - will you be able to do it? I show you a picture with a hot guy and a hot girl - will you be able to stop yourself from getting attracted to the hot girl....and instead get attracted to the hot guy?
And because you will not be able to do this, what if I then announce that you have a disease and that you are abnormal and against nature? How would you feel?
These are questions that many straight guys will not have the brain cells to understand or appreciate.
On one hand I feel inclined towards the Koran for multiple reasons....and then on one hand I struggle with the fact that I'm gay...and I didn't choose to be this way. So why did God make most people straight and me gay? Why are all the laws for straight couples and nothing aboout gay couples? Why? Why? Why? Is that not unfair? Isn't God supposed to be Just?
Indeed...if I any genie were to give me the option to change a few things about myself....I would certainly change my sexuality.
Anyways...coming to the Koran...I'm quite confused. People from Answering Islam say that the Koran must be wrong because it says that there were no gays before Lot's people! Now how do you answer this? You may answer that it was LOT who said this and NOT God...and messengers are human beings like us so Lot did not have enough knowledge about the world and said this in error. I really don't know.
Sometimes I feel that the Koran is talking about bisexuals...as it talks about people LEAVING females and going for males...bisexuals can CHOOSE where they want to get sexual gratification from. I used to think there are no bisexuals until I met a few bisexual friends. They are INDEED attracted to both the sexes in the same way.
Yet some verses seem to clearly imply that homosexual acts are sins. Whenever the Koran talks about people of Lot, it ALWAYS mentions the sexual acts. A few other verses do mention other things..robbery etc...but sexual stuff remains the KEY sin.
And that's the reason why I do not plan to settle down with a guy. And that's also the reason why I am seeking a lesbian to get married to...a marriage of convenience...I want to fit in with the society. IF ONLY the Koran had approved of homosexuality, I would have lived my life my way and cared a fudge about what other people said. The Koran is also totally silent on lesbianism.
Some people argue that the Koran also does not mention any punishment for rape...so does that mean rapes are allowed? So how can you say the same about homosexual acts?
Have I found the answers? No I haven't. And I probably never will, until God chooses to reveal something to me, or until I'm resurrected.
God bless....
I do not think homosexuality is one thing. It is like rashes on the skin. It may be a sign of something but not all the rashes are due to the same cause or a single cause. I think, I know, that there are so called homosexuals who chose to be so. Others didn't choose and may not help it. So the same as there are meny etiologies for rashes, there are many etiologies for "homosexuality". The fact that it is all bundled together as if it were the same thing does not help to give people the wisest treatment.
At any rate, sexuality, any form of it is part of the private life of people, and the private life of people is precisely that, private, and the sura an-N ur makes it abundantly clear that it is nobody's business to pry on what people do in private, because that is between them and God and the people they have intimacy with.
Lut's people were not "homosexuals", they were gangs and debauchers and agressors, and obiviously did not keep their "sexuality" private, if it was sexuality, because it looks rather that it was power-lust.
Salaam
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I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Salam
A "Muslim" is about "Submission", and relating to the issue of "obedience" or "disobedience" (refer here).
"Believers" is about the whole system, the Sunnatullah, and mostly is related to the issue of "justly balanced", or any part of it. The Qur'an is about human beings, about us (refer here).
Therefore, the nearest conclusion we are able to make is there will never be "Gay Muslims", but there can be "Gay Believers". So as there will be a "Prostitute Believers", a "Robber Believers", or "Believers" in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other religions (refer here). Many of them can be Believers but not Muslims (refer here). They are the reformers of just and balance, reforming themselves and others for the better (refer here).
That's why Allah makes a distinction between a "Believer" and a "True Believer" (82).
The believers
ARE ONLY
those whowhen Allah is mentioned <- traits no (1)
their hearts become fearfuland when His verses are recited to them <- traits no (2)
it increases them in faithand upon their Lord they rely <- traits no (3)
(82)
cf. 82 and 28
Equally, the difference between true believers or reformers and the munafiqoon (corruptors on earth - continuance/context on ayat 211 - unjust).
And of the people are some who say
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day,"
but they are not believers
(28)Peace
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Salaam muslims,
I think you presume too much.
God bless you
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Salam
Don't just say it, prove it.
Peace.
And We have revealed to you
the Book in truth
confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture <- refer here
and as a criterion over it
So judge between them by what Allah has revealed
and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth
To each of you
We prescribed a law and a method
Had Allah willed
He would have made you one nation
but to test you
in what He has given you
so race to good
To Allah is your return all together
and He will inform you
concerning that over which you used to differ
(54And to every nation
We appointed acts of devotion
that they may mention the name of Allah
on what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds
so your god is One God
therefore to Him should you submit
and give good news to the humble
(2234) -
Salaam,
And exactly how does that relate to what was previously written?
God bless you
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Salam
Okay, so you don't read and only argues.
or "Believers" in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other religions (refer here). Many of them can be Believers but not Muslims (refer here). They are the reformers of just and balance, reforming themselves and others for the better (refer here).
Peace.
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Peace all
An example of believer, but not Muslim.
Listen to his answers of "I believe" or "I agree", to the repeated questions of "do you believe" ..
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZOxddqjjw
and
https//sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/Home/all-faq-s-together-in-printable-format
who is.. a gay, a gay believer.
Salam
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Salaam,
I do read, but when I see now relevance in what I read then I argue as you said.
I think you have gotten the terminology a bit twisted. A Believer is always a Muslim, but a Muslim is not necessarily a Believer. They all have a mutual interest. That is using Quran's definition and not believers of other deities or polytheism, they are not referred to as Believer as per Quran. I think you delve too deeply into your own philosophies without involving the whole concept, you need to take the whole Message into account.
And I left out the human-made concept of believer as God has a completely different perspective and it is the one I follow.
God bless you
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Salam
Seriously, you are not reading, or not what I know as "reading".
Therefore, the nearest conclusion we are able to make is
Equally, the difference between true believers or reformers and the munafiqoon (corruptors on earth - continuance/context on ayat 211 - unjust).
And of the people are some who say
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day,"
BUT they are not believers
(28)The believers
ARE ONLY
those whoPeace
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Salaam,
They say they are believers because they thought they were believers. So they are mistaken and wrong and followed conjecture and it does not mean that there is a different kind of believer. They are disbelievers or hypocrites. The Swedish has a better word for it called "skenheling" and means that you do everything that your traditional religion requires from you but you do not really live by them and you do not really believe.
They may have called themselves Muslims but they did not follow the ideal and what signifies a Muslims and they were therefore never a Muslim in God's point of view and thus they were not Believers either. Point is that these people often in their own wrongdoings believe that they are on a straight path while they are not and God does not guide them towards right. They say that they believe but in truth the lie to themselves and tell themselves that they are Muslims so much that they believe it.
One can say they are Muslims as much as they like but it is still not up to them to decide for as long as you do not live a life as one you are not a Muslim and you will definitely not become a Believer if you do not act out as one.
When you are a Believer then you will sort of feel this and you will be completely certain that God is really real and you do not have to brag about it either.
God bless you
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Salam
The word "BUT" in must mean something, and there are millions of people who "Believe" the "ideas in the Qur'an" without knowing it, and are not Muslims.
An example of believer, but not Muslim.
Listen to his answers of "I believe" or "I agree", to the repeated questions of "do you believe" ..
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZOxddqjjw
Many of them reject the Qur'an but not the ideas in the Qur'an. How can someone reject the ideas that are naturally embedded in human beings? Therefore, they are actually rejecting the religion of Islam, the same way I am rejecting the Religion of Islam, and and the same way Muhammad rejects the idea of Christianity or Judaism as a religion (Is he a disbeliever?).
Many of them lived these ideas within themselves, more than what the so-called Muslim today. Some of them are actually the Believers. Okay, we should be embarrassed, and that's the design or intention for this miserable life of the Ummah. So that we can be aware of our mistakes, reviewing our action, learn from each other and lived the "ideas in the Qur'an" within ourselves.
O you men!
surely We have created you
of a male and a female
and made you tribes
and families
that you may know each other
surely the most honorable of you with Allah
is the one among you most careful (of his duty)
surely Allah is Knowing, Aware
(4913)Further, it's not necessarily to have 100% faith to be a Believer (which is referred by Allah as a True Believer).
Do you think we have 100% faith in the Qur'an?
If so, are we able to perform all commands and prohibitions in the Qur'an?
Why not? .. What is the difference between us and them?
What makes us a better human being?
Is it merely because we have beard and know how to Salah?
That's it??
See?
There is no difference if we are a born Muslim or not, or what label we are.
Faith cannot be inherited and our "Muslim Label" is totally irrelevant to Allah.
These all are religions and sectarianism.
Man made definition.
Man made human values to divide good peoples, whatever religions they are.
and the only truth in Islam, is the Qur'an, not the Ummah (label).
Peace
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Salaam,
Muslim is the one who lives like a Muslim and it is not necessarily bound to Quran which is a guidebook. It is not a fixed label for specific people.
God bless you
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Salam
Muslim is specific and bound by the Qur'an (obedience or disobedience), Believer is general... just and balance, righteousness etc.
And whoever seeks a "dnan" (ا other than Islam
it will NEVER be accepted of him
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(<a href="http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=85">385</a>A "Muslim" is about "Submission", and relating to the issue of "obedience" or "disobedience" (refer here).
"Believers" is about the whole system, the Sunnatullah, and mostly is related to the issue of "justly balanced", or any part of it. The Qur'an is about human beings, about us (refer here).
or in analogy, Believer is Faith (Iman), and Muslim is Action (Amal).
and..
Therefore, the nearest conclusion we are able to make is there will never be "Gay Muslims", but there can be "Gay Believers"
and do not argue with the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)
except in a way that is best
except for those who commit injustice among them, and say
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you (Torah and Bible)
And our God and your God is one
and we are Muslims to Him
(Quran 2946)Muslim believe in their Books = Believer and Muslim
They believe in their Books = Believer, but not Muslim (Islam)If they are "SINCERE" to One God and the truth without any regards to sectarianism, if they are good peoples, not arrogant to the truth, and becoming True Believers of just and balance, then Allah will surely guide them to Islam (Muslim). They will end as a True Muslim. This situation is equally the same with Islam, since many are still not a True Muslim! nope
Peace
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Salaam,
I think you have gotten it a bit wrong. Muslim is a certain behavior and not a label. Being a good Muslim will lead to belief (God willing). Belief is not just belief on a human dimension to God. It takes more than just express; "I believe" and you are a believer, you need a degree of certainty first and instead you should say "I am a Muslim (and I intend to become a Believer by righteous deeds and only serve God)". Few of us, if even any, are certain about God in our hearts right away and it takes some time. As long as there is doubt about anything you are not a Believer but "only" a Muslim (which is not so little).
Muslim is behavior in general and not necessarily from Quran's literary meaning as it is a guidebook and not that everything circles around it but rather around God Himself. Even people before Quran were Muslims by definition who lived like those who are entitled to this.
Islam is more vast than people think even if they have given themselves certain labels out of ignorance. Even if you call yourself Muslim and do not live like one then you do not believe in Islam or God according to God Himself as you do not adapt to His system. Basically 'being good' and serve God is what Islam is about, and believe that God created all this.
True Muslim is of course up to God to decide but if you act out your life as one through deeds then you are one. It is little about what you say but what you do. A bit like Jesus allegedly said Man cannot live by words alone".
Christians call themselves just Christians but they are Muslims if they were unitarian. It is a confusion on their part. Jesus was a Muslim for example. Idolatry led them to this. But yet I am sure that behavior and thoughts are far more important to God than a petty label.
On a depth if you want to believe and do righteous deeds but not yet ascertained you are a Muslim. If you are faithful that God really exist you are more than a Muslim but also a Believer.
It is rough to funnel all people through this Muslim concept but most people including people with certain idolatrous behavior can be Muslims anyway if they are being good people. But as long as they do not believe it will still be difficult for them to enter God's paradise. One can practice idolatry in many ways and it can also be oneself that is a problem and an idol or your priorities. God frequently says, my interpretation Be mindful of me (only) and purify yourselves and when you do this you may be able to title yourself Muslim. And when you also truly believe then you are also a Believer.
When you go and say a gay cannot be a Muslim you step on dangerous ground and talk about something of which you have no knowledge. It is first of all not up to you to decide. A righteous person who happens to be gay and does not choose him or herself is still a Muslim due to the deeds. He follows God's system, God made him gay and not himself so the person did nothing wrong. A person mocking this person is not a Muslim on the other hand per behavior.
God bless you
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Were you also attracted to same-sex people during your childhood? Since when did you realize that.you were homosexual? If you want to believe in God and that Qur'an is from God, do you think you can or need to struggle to overcome homosexuality?
Peace brother. I felt attracted to them right from a very early age. Initially, it was just my brothers and father...they were the first males that I came across. I didn't know about kissing or making out, so I would just imagine them naked...and rub my private part against the floor. It would give me a certain pleasure, and I would reach a climax soon...but never understood what it meant...or why it came only after some amount of rubbing! I guess I was around 6 or 7...not sure.
I realized I was a homosexual when I began reading books. We used to have many books and dictionaries. Only then did I discover that you are supposed to get attracted to females, not males. Until then, I had no idea what I was doing and why.
I can definitely avoid homosexual acts...but attraction to men comes as naturally to me as attraction to women comes to you..it's an integral and unavoidable part of me.
You compared it with your urge to pull hair. But does pulling hair satisfy a BASIC human need? Sex is a BASIC human need..and so is the desire to be loved by another man/woman. I don't think the two are comparable.
I wasn't offended by your post at all. I'm glad to know that you are tolerant, understanding and polite.
We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.
Peace good logic, I do often think it's a test. But it puzzles me why the same rules don't apply to straight men/women. I'm no different from them, am I? I often wish God had mentioned something about LGBT in the Koran. I'm not even asking for the same privileges..but at least an acknowledgment...maybe something like this
And there are some men among you who desire men, and some women who desire women. Do not act upon your desires, for it is a sin. It is a test from God. Whosoever is patient and does good deeds, for them is a reward with God. Do not oppress such people, for they were made this way. God is Omniscient, Wise (Koran ????)
It would have made me more confident about it coming from an All-Knowing Creator. Most Muslim countries oppress LGBT people.
I'm not sure that AQ is totally silent on lesbians.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.
I remember reading on this forum once that the women referred to here were prostitutes. So a command came that such women should be confined to their homes so that vice doesn't spread in the society. Are you sure 416 refers to gay men?
It is clear that 780 is not referring to homosexuality, which long predates the people of Lot.
But then what is it referring to? I did not quite understand your post. Please clarify brother. The next verse makes it clear that it's okay to approach females but not males.
I often bump into some disturbing claims...I don't really endorse them..but neither do I know how to counter them. And they often haunt me. For example,
Koran says homosexuality never existed before Lot. But homosexuality existed. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says Christians worship Gabriel and Mary. But they don't. They worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says Jews worship Ezra as God's son. There is no historical record of this anywhere. So Koran is not divine.
Koran says gays choose men over women. We know that they don't choose. They simply act on the only desires they have. So Koran is not divine.
I guess there will always be some questions that we can never answer. Nevertheless, my faith in God comes more from science than from the Koran. The fine-tuning of the Universe and the fact that we can decipher the Universe point to a deeper meaning.
For example, check these out
http//www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-goldilocks-enigma-by-paul-davies-419758.html
http//articles.latimes.com/1995-03-11/local/me-41323_1_paul-daviesNevertheless, among all the scriptures that I have studied, it is only the Koran that I find to be most consistent and coherent in its basic message. I can't say the same about the Bible - there's night and day difference between OT and NT. I find the NT a bit vague in its basic message - you can get Trinity out of it if you want, but you can also get Judeo-Islamic monotheism out of it if you want. In other words, if the whole Trinity thing was so essential to our salvation, you would expect that God would have explicitly mentioned it in the NT, which does not seem to be the case.
If you give the Bible to ten people who have no idea about Christianity, they will probably come up with ten different takeaways. I guess the same goes for scriptures of other faiths.
But give the Koran to them, and they will all probably agree about service to God alone, certainty of Hereafter, and the importance of good deeds.
God bless....
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Peace bookish.
Please keep your trust in God. With God there is a way out.
951
Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what God has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In God the believers shall trust."God bless you.
Peace
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Salam Man of Faith
I'm not surprise. There is nothing new with your definition of "Muslim" and which derive from the mainstream definition of Muslims, the sectarian definition; ie. the definition of Muslim who see Islam as a religion despite the Qur'an have never talked about religion (madzhab). (refer here)
The truth is many are still not Muslim.
When his Lord said to him, "Submit"
he said "I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds."
And Abraham instructed his sons and Jacob,
"O my sons, indeed Allah has chosen for you this deen
so do not die except while you are Muslims" <- Being a Muslim or obedience is not their choice, same here!
(2131-132) - our ultimate goal, being a MuslimWhy? The words Islam and Muslim come from the same three letter root word (s,l and m). Islam by definition means "surrender and submission" only to the one true creator. A muslim by definition means "one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God".
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"? (refer here)
Can you refer me to an ayat that say this??
Please, no rambling.. just one direct ayat from the Qur'an.
Whereas Allah clearly says
And whoever seeks a "dnan" (ا other than Islam <- "surrender and submission"
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- Do you have a choice if Allah say "NEVER"?
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)Further, it's not necessarily to have 100% faith to be a Believer (which is referred by Allah as a True Believer).
In contradiction, people can "believe" in Allah (Believer) whether or not he is surrendering to the laws of God.
And if you asked them
"Who created the heavens and the earth?"
they would surely say, " Allah <- They believe, but not surrender, ie. not a Muslim
" Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah?
(393Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth?
Or who controls hearing and sight
and who brings the living out of the dead
and brings the dead out of the living
and who arranges matter?"
They will say, " Allah ," <- They believe, but not surrender, ie. not a Muslim
so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"
(1031)Therefore when someone accepting or converting into Islam, they are in fact entering into a "Contract" with Allah to obey; "We hear, we obey", and not "We hear, we disobey". Islam is in fact a Contract (refer here), and if one reads the whole Qur'an and think logically, the only issue related to the question of "We hear, we obey" or "We hear, we disobey" is "obedience" and "disobedience". You can either obey or disobey Allah. You are a Muslim if you iq'tiqad to obey Allah, and you are non-Muslim if you iq'tiqad to disobey Allah.
Therefore, there is only "Muslim" or "non-Muslim". There is no where in the Qur'an Allah differentiate between a Muslim and a True Muslim. In contradiction, Allah repeatedly differentiates between a Believer and True Believer.
And of the people are some who say
"We believe in Allah and the Last Day,"
but they are not believers
(2 <- compare with (82)The bedouins say,
"We have believed."
Say, "You have not believed; but say
'We have submitted,' <- They are entering contract, to become Muslim
for faith has not yet entered your hearts
And if you obey Allah and His Messenger
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
The believers
are only <- meaning of True Believer
the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger
and then doubt not <- even for 0.1% or during great test from Allah
but strive with their properties
and their lives in the cause of Allah
It is those who are the truthful <- True Believer
(4914-15)please also refer to (82)
The relevant question what is Allah compares to?
Do you understand what is the meaning of "doubt not", "are only" and "truthful"?
It is obvious that Allah is comparing to the meaning of "True Believer", the one who "doubt not" even for less than 0.1%, or during great test from Allah (compare with 1062-64 for the understanding of "doubt not"; ie. the Awliya). The one who strive with their properties and lives all their life in the cause of Allah. Allah is not mentioned about the general Believers. It is about True Believers and only them is the one who is truthful in their belief.
Therefore, there are Believers who have faith even before they are accepting Islam, and whether or not he is surrendering to the laws of God; ie. whether a Muslim or non-Muslim.
Please give an ayat from the Qur'an to support your conclusion and answer the issue of our discussion. I'm getting tired of reading "personal opinion". I believe and have faith in the Qur'an, not "personal opinion". If we are wrong, let it be we wrong while referring the words of Allah. We are reforming for the better.
Peace peace