Gay and Muslim?
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Salaam,
"Straw man discussion" occurred at several parts of this thread. And sarcasm flows rampage.
God bless you
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Huruf,
Since when did I post that?You misquoted someone else's post.
And my name is Yuliana, with one n only.
Indeed, Yuliana, my mistake. Sorry for it. It happens to me sometimes when I only quote a part of a message that I make mistakes and mostly I catch them myself, but obviously not all. No, you did not say that. I think it was learning truth81
Sorry again.
Salaam
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Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
Peace Then who created intersex people? Who created people who have the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male? Who created people born with mosaic genetics (a mix of XX and XY)? Who created males and females that are unable to procreate naturally? Who created homosexual animals (of which humans are one species that show this behaviour)? Who created males with micro penises (so small they are unable to procreate and unable to achieve penetration)? These are physical and genetic differences not just psychological.
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as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
It is only in Western countries that HIV transmission is higher for gay people than straight. In sub Saharan Africa nearly 30 million are HIV positive and as many as 2 million people die a year as a result of severely weakened immune systems. The majority are heterosexual not homosexual. In the last 10 years the majority of new HIV patients world wide have been heterosexual not homosexual. Women also contract HIV so it is not necessarily from male to male sex.
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"Straw man discussion" occurred at several parts of this thread.
Salam
Indeed, a "straw person" ... laugh
A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. The misrepresentation can be intentional or accidental. It is possible to unintentionally misrepresent an opponent's argument by failing to understand it in the first place and honestly communicating what one (wrongly) thinks is the actual argument.; Wikipedia
(refer here)
I believe both of you must be very confused.
Read from the start and there is not a single person who is talking or supporting the ideas of Muslim should oppress homosexual.
All are agreed that there should be no oppression, respect them as human beings, and are talking about "What is the rule in the Qur'an?".
Issue of this thread
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
(the statements thereafter are the "supporting statements" suggesting the importance of this issue, and why the Sunni and Shia should treat them as a Muslim and human beings - which is not necessary since many here are not Sunni or Shia, and are not supporting any oppression)ie. the issue of whether gay is a muslim or non-muslim?
if a muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)
if a non-muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)
and if relating to a statement that can be a muslim because of "feelings" (refer here) or "natural" (refer here).. then the issue whether these factors or elements can change God's rules? (refer here and here)
and what is the rule relating to homosexuality? (refer here, which no one is willing to answer, and rather wish to treat as if it is never existed in the Qur'an)
and...
Now, how your comment can be related to the above discussion? confused
Peace
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Peace,
And we ought not to throw stones in glass houses here.
God bless you
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Peace,
What is it you want to prove? That I fear for you that you will end up in Hell. Well I do and it is because I usually care for all people even if they trespass the limitations.
Anyway, enough personal quarrel in here. I will ignore you since you are out to hurt me, intentionally or unintentionally.
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What's actually going on here in this thread is a very common case of human Ego. We all have it and it is giving us all trouble... it's just that we tend to not know it. One way the Ego works is that it forces us to react, react and react, emotionally... it's basically a defense mechanism of the mind. Our challenge is to take control back from our own mind/Ego. It can be done to great extents, but it requires deliberate work... but not antagonistic strife. There are meditations/ways to let us obtain peaceful freedom from the reign of our mind... while keeping the mind as the great tool it is...
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Salaam,
You are so right, Zulf.
God bless you
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What's actually going on here in this thread is a very common case of human Ego. We all have it and it is giving us all trouble... it's just that we tend to not know it. One way the Ego works is that it forces us to react, react and react, emotionally... it's basically a defense mechanism of the mind.
Our challenge is to take control back from our own mind/Ego. It can be done to great extents, but it requires deliberate work... but not antagonistic strife.
There are meditations/ways to let us obtain peaceful freedom from the reign of our mind... while keeping the mind as the great tool it is...
Peace Zulf
5810
Lo! Conspiracy is only of the devil, that he may vex those who believe;
but he can harm them not at all unless by Allah's leave.
In Allah let believers put their trust.
Let our Free-Minds surrender absolute to the Soul adhering to the words of the Lord of
the worlds Allah before it becomes Freaky-Minds
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as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
It is only in Western countries that HIV transmission is higher for gay people than straight. In sub Saharan Africa nearly 30 million are HIV positive and as many as 2 million people die a year as a result of severely weakened immune systems. The majority are heterosexual not homosexual. In the last 10 years the majority of new HIV patients world wide have been heterosexual not homosexual. Women also contract HIV so it is not necessarily from male to male sex.
Because the are less gays so less gays produce HIV.
Yes, the reason is lack of immunity so that is to be blamed for HIV.
But it still doesn't change the fact that anal sex is easy to cause HIV. -
Man of Faith and all that are angry with muslims?
Why are you guys angry with him?
Because he cited verses that God frowns upon male approaching their males (I think the word approaching refers to sex right)?
Why?
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Salaam,
Not so much about any argument at all but more the arrogance and sarcasm, and the continued work to make fun of someone despite having stopped. I could not care more about the topic which I already answered about, after that I just had to deal with personal insults.
Anyway I do no longer discuss anything with him.
God bless you
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Man of Faith and all that are angry with muslims?
Why are you guys angry with him?
Because he cited verses that God frowns upon male approaching their males (I think the word approaching refers to sex right)?
Why?
For the sake of faithfulness and truth, it is not God who says anything about the males approaching the males, but His prophet Lut in the circumstance in which his people attempted to rape his male guests. This is what the Qur'an narrates. They attempted to rape Lut's guests and Lut defended his guests with that speech and pointed to his daughters instead, and apparently for the moment he succeeded, since the guests were not raped and his daughters did not interest the rapers. Lut spoke and Lut was in his circumstance.
Salaam
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It's better to avoid anykind of personal problems between members in this forum.
We don't know each other in here.If want some personal relation just do it by PM.
Salaam
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For the sake of faithfulness and truth, it is not God who says anything about the males approaching the males, but His prophet Lut in the circumstance in which his people attempted to rape his male guests. This is what the Qur'an narrates. They attempted to rape Lut's guests and Lut defended his guests with that speech and pointed to his daughters instead, and apparently for the moment he succeeded, since the guests were not raped and his daughters did not interest the rapers. Lut spoke and Lut was in his circumstance.
Salaam
You are missing the point here. Do you really believe that in Lut's times, homosexuality would have been allowed? Was homosexuality ever allowed in Abrahamic times or times of past prophets?? Quran doesn't need to make a clear warning forbidding homosexuality. It was never allowed or accepted in monotheists teachings. Make reference to old testament and it clearly slams homosexuality as an abomination. Old testament pre dates Quran. Islam, or submission to one God did not begin with the Quran. You need to look at the context in which homosexuality falls within. It was not written back in to Quran to be acceptable, but it was clearly prohibited before Quran was revealed.
Many claim here that the correct way is to follow the way of Abraham as also the Quran instructs, well in that case, rullings on homosexuality are clear as day, and past verses on this matter are relevant. Or do you believe like the sectarians believe that Islam started with the prophet Muhammed? or with the Quran? Islam/submission started before. Any practice that is consistent with these teachings still remain, prohibition of pork etc.
Homosexuality is most definitely not acceptable for muslims, gay sex, same sex marriage is not acceptable in Islam.
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Salaam,
We need to be careful advocating the Old Testament as it is filled with problems and it also advocates circumcision which there is no mention of in Qur'an. However, I think circumcision is a very old mistake of misinterpreting phrases and that it meant something else.
Anyway, homosexuality is not exactly a norm and is against God's design. Still you need to respect these people as Muslims.
God bless you