Gay and Muslim?
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I don't think you've really demonstrated the Quran is against specifically homosexuality
Salam
Why should I demonstrate the Qur'an is against specifically homosexuality? hmm
The issue is why he is a Muslim?
Without being too controversial, I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
The above is your question on this thread and the issue I'm referring to. (refer here and here)
Therefore, I have given the ayats from the Qur'an (refer here) on the issue of why he is not a Muslim and if one to make a conclusion in the opposition, then it is better to refer an ayat from the Qur'an rather than making a conclusion from what he feels are the right things to say.
Secondly,
there are things like gang violence associated with the actual Quranic sin. I'd hope no one would suggest homosexuals are all violent rapists.
The issue is not whether sodomy is equal to violent rapists. )
and as I said...
Between individuals (vs. state powers), it might have some truth in it and its up to the person to commit the "Al-Fahishah" or not..
Allah say..
Say, "Enjoy Yourselves! (1430)
and
O you who have believed
upon you is yourselves
(5105)Thirdly,
You can think as you wish I suppose, and may God decide all disputes. )
So true.. therefore where is the ayat from the Qur'an to support the conclusion that he is a Muslim?
Where is the ayat to support the conclusion that there is a provision for "Gay Muslim" in the Qur'an?
Where is the ayat to support the conclusion that reading the Qur'an would make us believe that Islam support gayism and homosexuality? yes
And in anything over which you disagree
its ruling is to Allah <- ie. an ayat from the Qur'an
, "That is Allah , my Lord
upon Him I have relied
and to Him I turn back."
(4210)And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people
You commit Al-Fahishah (sodomy the worst sin)
which none has preceded you in (committing) it in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns).
Verily, you do sodomy with men, and... <- comparison (1732)
(2929)Peace peace
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What is a Muslim?
Then I hope to hear your comment on this
And DO NOT eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you
and if you obey them, you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists. (6121)For a simple reason of eating of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
Even the Prophet would become associator, ie. not a Muslim
Despite the syahadah, salat, fasting, zakat and sadaqah, hajj, jihad etc.......
Prophet Muhammad will not be a Muslim if disobey the "DO NOT" prohibition (breach of contract).Now the question....
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Can we claim more privilege than the Prophet?
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Can you prove that we are allowed to ignore the "DO NOT" prohibition
and still entitle to call ourselves a Muslim?
Rational
None dispute concerning the communications of Allah but those who disbelieve
(404)Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before
and you shall not find a change in Allah's course
(4823)Impossible for people who i'tiqad to disobey Allah to be a Muslim and enter Paradise.
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Gay or homosexuality is sexual gratification from the same sex. It starts from the border line between childhood and adolescence, until adulteration is completed i.e. when we reach adulthood. The borderline between childhood and adolescence is the stage when the habit of masturbation is invented as the most gratifying discovery when a boy touches his own genital organ; and when a female touches her own genital organ; here starts male to male; and female to female sensual affinities - the mental growth of gay sexual aberration is seeded here.
So True
None is exempt from this globally pandemic, genetic, genital disorder. These are truly homo-sapiens.
Except for Allah, Who shall bring forth the pristine life from the dead and decayed, it is impossible for the humanity as a whole to become free of this sensuality which is punitively offensive to the sensibilities of one's mental calibre. Only when our masturbation tendency weans away, we shall become aware of our distinguishing and discerning abilities. This is the reward from Allah, awaiting one and all.
Instead of justifying this mental dysfunction through debate as normal physiological activity, we can be prayerful or Wishfully obeying the Will of Allah and put our Trust in Him with the prayer
O God of the worlds;
Save us from the sensualities.
Elevate us from the ritual debates;
And make our minds surrender to Your Will -
Raise us in Honour and Enlightenment,
With all praise to Your ordainment.
That perhaps You might raise us -
To the Throne; as we submit
To You alone; us, as You acquit.Salam
Just to remind and it is worthwhile to add to the above prayer,
O God,
Show us and our generations to come,
the manifested evidence as you have shown to Yusuf,
and make us firm believer,
so as to avoid, from evil and lewdness.1224 And certainly she made for him, and he Yusuf would have made for her, were it not that he had seen the manifest evidence of his Lord; thus averted from him evil and lewdness, surely he was one of Our sincere servants.
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So True
Quote from drfazl on Today at 032835 am
None is exempt from this globally pandemic, genetic, genital disorder. These are truly homo-sapiens.Peace
So, is he a Muslim?
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
For a simple reason of eating of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
Even the Prophet would become associator, ie. not a Muslim
Despite the syahadah, salat, fasting, zakat and sadaqah, hajj, jihad etc....... -
Greetings and Peace, all group
There is no reason why a person can't be both gay and follow the Deen.
Both psychology and modern medicine accept homosexuality in humans as normal.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Homosexuality is either natural (the fact that it is prevalent in ALL sexual species supports this argument), or it is some form of disorder. If it is natural, there is no problem. If it is some form of disorder (peer reviewed citation please?), please consider 4817.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
ALLAH knows who follows the Deen and who doesn't. Please especially consider 494.
436 And serve GOD and do not set up anything with Him, and do good to the parents, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the neighbor who is a relative, and the neighbor nearby, and the friend nearby, and the wayfarer, and those maintained by your oaths. GOD does not love the arrogant, the boastful.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.
58 O you who believe, stand for GOD and be witnesses for justice, and let not the hatred towards a people make you avoid being just. Be just, for it is closer to righteousness, and be aware of GOD. GOD is expert over what you do.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Btw, one must remember ALLAH before eating, not pronounce/mention over the food.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603261.msg289652#msg289652
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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There is no reason why a person can't be both gay and follow the Deen.
Salam
So.. can gay be a Muslim? )
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Peace
p/s btw .. "So eat of that (meat) on which Allah's Name has been pronounced (while slaughtering the animal), if you are believers in His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)." (611
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in red.
Salam
So.. can gay be a Muslim?
Yes. yes
Peace
p/s btw .. "So eat of that (meat) on which Allah's Name has been pronounced (while slaughtering the animal), if you are believers in His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)." (6118)
Please look at the Arabic (in brackets) and juxtapose with other verses. AQ 774 and 7205 leave absolutely no doubt in this matter.
6118 So eat from that on which the name of GOD has been remembered , if you indeed believe in His revelations.
3135 And those who, if they commit lewdness, or wrong themselves, they remember GOD and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except GOD? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.
774 "And remember that He made you successors after 'Aad, and He established you in the land so that you make palaces on its plains, and you carve homes in the mountains. So remember the grace of GOD, and do not roam the earth as corrupters."
7205 And remember your Lord within yourself, in humility and in reverence; and without loudness in words, during the morning and the evening. And do not be of the careless ones.
2236 And the plump livestock, We have made them for you to be among the symbols of GOD; you will have benefit in them. So remember the name of GOD upon them in succession; then, once their sides have become still, you may eat from them and feed with them the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Gay or homosexuality is sexual gratification from the same sex. It starts from the border line between childhood and adolescence, until adulteration is completed i.e. when we reach adulthood. The borderline between childhood and adolescence is the stage when the habit of masturbation is invented as the most gratifying discovery when a boy touches his own genital organ; and when a female touches her own genital organ; here starts male to male; and female to female sensual affinities - the mental growth of gay sexual aberration is seeded here.
I'd love to see the scientific backing for this statement. yeah
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Salam
Why should I demonstrate the Qur'an is against specifically homosexuality? hmm
Because you're claiming it, and it doesn't seem to be in a way demonstrated beyond your personal conjecture.
The issue is not whether sodomy is equal to violent rapists. )
Yes it is, because gang violence is mentioned along with the sin in the story of Lot. Its directly related to it.
So true.. therefore where is the ayat from the Qur'an to support the conclusion that he is a Muslim?
Where is the ayat to support the conclusion that there is a provision for "Gay Muslim" in the Qur'an?
If the Quran doesn't actually outright condemn homosexuality why does there need to be one to support it? By your standard I could say bring a Quran verse to support a Muslim sleeping at 2 o'clock pm, and if you can't bring one, one cannot do so and be Muslim.
Gayism
No offense, but how old are you? If you're going to start devolving into insults I'm not sure I'm going to keep discussing with you. I'll pray for your obvious prejudice.
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I'd love to see the scientific backing for this statement. yeah
Science is surreal objective gathering of bits and pieces of broke theories of man against the truth of God, that shall only be appreciated by the sense of higher faculties such as the mind and still higher, the soul.
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Peace.
To be honest, I don't even know what my stance is in regard to homosexuality. Some say they were born that way, but there is no scientific backing for that, except for a whole bunch of theories. Some way that it's learned behavior that is nurtured in early childhood (0-3). Others will try to make the connection between the increased availability of pornography and an increased likelihood of "deviating" away from what's considered natural and neuro typical. Whether it's learned behavior or genetic, is it a choice? Personally, I don't think attraction is a conscious choice. So, what the heck does that mean?
In the US, where this is highly charged topic, it's almost blasphemous (very politically incorrect) to say that homosexuality may be in fact a psychological disorder of some sort. Though, for many years, it was classified as just that. All I know is that the APA (American Psychological Association) mysteriously removed homosexuality from the DSM with absolutely no rationale given to the public. Political Pressure? Maybe. As a result, nobody seems to want to fund any research in relation to possible points of origin or reparative therapy.
We may just have to deal with the consequences of all of this while keeping silent, given that our forefathers were more akin to coming to the table with their pitchforks, rather than wanting to reflect on how and why homosexuality appears in roughly 10% of the American population.
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If the Quran doesn't actually outright condemn homosexuality why does there need to be one to support it? By your standard I could say bring a Quran verse to support a Muslim sleeping at 2 o'clock pm, and if you can't bring one, one cannot do so and be Muslim.
How come mut'ah, child marriage and polygamy is wrong but gayism is okay?
Salam
I don't want to comment on your answer because it is merely a blank denial, ad hominem and attack on personal and a fallacy.
It is irrelevant to the issue of "whether gay is a Muslim".
Without being too controversial, I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
However, you are merely putting a blank denial and diverting from the issue, and refuse to answer the following question (REFER HERE)
Thirdly,
You can think as you wish I suppose, and may God decide all disputes. )
So true.. therefore where is the ayat from the Qur'an to support the conclusion that he is a Muslim?
Where is the ayat to support the conclusion that there is a provision for "Gay Muslim" in the Qur'an?
Where is the ayat to support the conclusion that reading the Qur'an would make us believe that Islam support gayism and homosexuality? yes
And in anything over which you disagree
its ruling is to Allah <- ie. an ayat from the Qur'an
, "That is Allah , my Lord
upon Him I have relied
and to Him I turn back."
(4210)Peace
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Salam
I'm quite confused, since when a sexual desires becoming a "psychological disorder". If "sexual psychological disorder" or "half psychological disorder" is a valid defense in Islam, then the whole prohibitions in the Qur'an are irrelevant since it is quite easy to bypass all the "DO NOT" prohibition in the Qur'an .
We do not need the institution of marriage and everything will be related to "psychological disorder"! All of us have "psychological disorder" relating to sex! yes
Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire?
Then would you be responsible for him?
(2543), and (4523)Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in red.
Salam
You are saying gay is a Muslim. (refer here)
Can you please provide/explain on the following issues and ayats
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The definition of "Muslim" according to the Qur'an
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The authority that confirmed the munafiqoon and mushrikeen is a Muslim.
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The privilege over Muhammad? (REFER HERE)
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The definition of "marriage" and the supporting ayat for "same-sex marriage".
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If there is no ayat to support "same-sex marriage", what is the relevance of the following ayats
Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision
and guard their private parts
(2430); (235); (3335)And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)Peace
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Peace
Would you consider pedophilia and bestiality to be neurotypical? Psychological disorders within a sexual context DO exist. So, there is a potential, of homosexuality fitting this description. Perhaps. Why not? After all, research is limited on both sides of the debate. There seems to be a conscious effort in trying to identify a gene that would resolve this dilemma, albeit unsuccessfully. Yet, very little research is being conducted from those who wish to investigate from the "nurture" perspective. Of course, this is because there is a clear bias against those folks. When the APA isn't on your side, then nothing is going to materialize.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Homosexuality is either allowed or not allowed. If it is not allowed, it is clearly and directly stated. If it is allowed (that is to say, not prohibited), it is up to individual judgment. Unless homosexuality can be shown to be clearly prohibited, individual judgment should not be substituted for the instructions of ALLAH.
Where does the Qur'an state that homosexuality is a sin? Where is anything else forbidden indirectly? AQ is fully detailed, and ALLAH is direct with instructions, including prohibitions and restrictions.
If a person feels that it is approaching lewdness, then that person, being responsible for themself, should avoid it. That's it--there is no decree against homosexuality.
I'll (re)post an argument below
Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.
Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.
Refute that ALLAH created people differently, as is stated in AQ 3022.
Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 226 and 2164.
Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.
Refute that AQ 2929 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.
Refute that the women among the people of Lot were innocent of male-male sex.
Refute that women and children among the people of Lot were destroyed alongside the men among the people of Lot.
Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2256.
Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.
Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.
Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.
Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.
Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.
Refute that AQ 1736 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.
Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.
Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.
Refute that AQ 1059 and 16116 state that it is wrong to forbid what ALLAH has not forbidden, that doing so is a lie, and that those who invent lies about ALLAH will not succeed.
In any case, I'm pretty sure that all can agree that promiscuity and acting on unbridled lust fall within the understanding of what is prohibited--homosexuality/bisexuality is not a "blank check" to indulge in what is prohibited.
However, dislike of homosexuality/homosexual acts is not a blank check to be ugly to other people, either.
It could be that homosexual acts are a minor offence--but I can't make this claim. Even so
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace
Is this a Qur'an only forum?
It seems too many diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials.
I hope to see relevant or direct authority from the Qur'an, and not wishful thinking or opinions. (refer here and here)
Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire?
Then would you be responsible for him?
(2543), and (4523)Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision
and guard their private parts
(2430); (235); (3335)And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- ie. is referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31) -
Psychological disorders within a sexual context DO exist.
Salam
Therefore the issue is can a "psychological or mentally disorders" person be a Muslim?
We are discussing about crazy peoples, right?
(Lot's nation could now raise a defense of "psychological or mental disorders"I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
Secondly,
Why the laws (human and religious) are seriously dealing with the issue of "psychological or mental disorders" person as if human rights in relation to marriage etc?
Should these peoples fall under the Mental Disorders Act or any mental health related legislations? Mental institutions? )
This thread can't be serious right? yes
Peace peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
You are saying gay is a Muslim. (refer here)
My statement was clear and succinct. Homosexuals can be muslim.
Can you please provide/explain on the following issues and ayats
- The definition of "Muslim" according to the Qur'an
A muslim is one who submits themself to ALLAH.
- The authority that confirmed the munafiqoon and mushrikeen is a Muslim.
?
- The privilege over Muhammad? (REFER HERE)
There is no privilege. There is an issue with many translations, abetted by "tradition", where people think that food must have the name of ALLAH pronounced over it. This is false, as has been demonstrated. ALLAH must be remembered before the food is partaken.
- The definition of "marriage" and the supporting ayat for "same-sex marriage".
Marriage is undefined in AQ; the word is self explanatory.
- If there is no ayat to support "same-sex marriage", what is the relevance of the following ayats
Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision
and guard their private parts
(2430); (235); (3335)And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors
(7029-31)In a nutshell, it says to be faithful to one's spouse/mate, to not lust after others or cause others to lust after oneself. Btw, many translations translate as "be modest" or "guard their chastity" instead of "guard their private parts."
Further, consider AQ 424.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Peace
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Salam
It seems too many diversions, fallacy, wishful thinking, ignoring issues and blank denials.
I hope to see relevant or direct authority from the Qur'an, and not wishful thinking or opinions. (refer here and here)
The prohibition of homosexuality
And those who guard their private parts <- see below
Except from their wives <- referring to marriages
or those their right hands possess
for indeed, they are not to be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that
then they are the transgressors <- Is transgressor a Muslim?
(7029-31)The word "wives" is an inference for the "institution of marriage", and the word "Except" is the "exclusion principle"; ie. which excludes all acts other than "marriages" or "those their right hands possess" as illegal; transgressions, an act that goes against the Qur'an and Islam.
Therefore...
Can you please provide/explain on the following issues and ayats
...
- The definition of "marriage" and the supporting ayat for "same-sex marriage".
OR, if they are psychologically and mentally sick person...
can a "psychological or mentally disorders" person be a Muslim? <- madman
The Quran and Islam are not for madman but for people of sound mind; accordingly, the title of a Muslim. (367)
(so as children or people who don't reach puberty)nor is there any burden on the sick
Secondly,
Btw, many translations translate as "be modest" or "guard their chastity" instead of "guard their private parts."
For the sake of simplification, assuming your argument is true, so it does not include private parts? It means to guard everything other than our private parts? Funny .. yes
Peace