Gay and Muslim?
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Salaam,
I am terribly sorry for my behavior in this thread dear brothers and sisters. I should not have let myself be provoked into this meaningless quarrel and I showed a bad example of a Muslim and not enough patience. May God make me do better next time.
My last post off-topic here, I promise.
God bless you
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Peace all,
It is very understandable that when topics of significance are discussed, it touches our cores when they are contested, so, naturally, tempers splay.
But when they do splay, it is beneficial in this respect they serve as reminders that we are in fact descending from debate into insults.
Insults, needless to say, are not productive in the objective pursuit of truth.
I myself have had topics vigorously contested that I hold close to my heart, though, I choose not to let loose my temper, but instead, rebut with a solid and cohesive argument to my greatest ability.
This, for me, is revenge enough.
Not to mention the fact that the use of curses towards other forum members violates the rules of this forum. And it is such a bore to see people throttling each other's necks every time I log into free-minds.
I pray, reason!
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I already answer yours, but itseems you're ignore it.That my post is also determine the shape of your question.
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriage, but guard private parts from mate (mate can be same-sex gender).Yes marriage in Quran is about husband and wive, but God never explicitly condemn same-sex marriage.
Salam
(from here)
No, I'm not ignoring your answer and yet, I mentioned how a "forumer" is better qualified and could reject all major translations in this world as being incorrect, in that particular verse.
Further, you are not answering my question, but diverting it to other issues.
Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
All the rules relating to sexual prohibitions in the Qur'an is meaningless?
These rules? (refer here)
Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)
In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.
Is this your logic?
A self-contradicting Qur'an?
This has nothing to do with this topic.
It has, because you are confused between what is the "rules relating to procedure", and what is the "rules relating to the offence". The difference between "procedural laws" and "substantive laws".
Peace
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Salam
No, I'm not ignoring you and yet, I mentioned how a "forumer" is better qualified and could reject all major translations in this world as being incorrect, in that particular verse.
Further, you are not answering my question, but diverting it to other issues.
Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
All the rules relating to sexual prohibition in the Qur'an is meaningless?
Is this your logic?
Peace
So according to you, the majority always true??(3110, 6116)
Most of translations yu used is based on Saudi biassed fatwa corridor.I recommend you use free-minds translation.Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
Even Quran only give fatwa for heterosexual marriage but Quran never God never condemn same-sex relation explicitly,then how yu judge if homosexs is haram.
It's like Quran never give fatwa about "masturbation", so we cannot condemn masturb so easily. -
Salam
Read again, I said "in that particular verse" and the "issue of self contradicting Qur'an" (context).
in that particular verse.
Please answer or stick to the question or discussion, and don't jump from one issue to the other. You are still not answering and just diverting from the real issue.
Peace
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Salam
Read again, I said "in that particular verse" and the "issue of self contradicting Qur'an" (context).
Please answer or stick to the question or discussion, and don't jump from one issue to the other.
Peace
Your question's pattern is sorry it's nonsense for me, and my answer actually both A and B.
Peace
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Salam
Why so quickly judging the issue as nonsense when I'm asking real question in this thread?
How do you answer all these self contradictions?
Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
All the rules relating to sexual prohibitions in the Qur'an is meaningless?
These rules? (refer here)
Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)
In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.
Is this your logic?
A self-contradicting Qur'an?
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salam
and that is supposed to answer this simple question? ;D
Peace
Yes
"It is apparent that the words are different...look at the roots though. Also, consider the other evidences, such as different words used for wife and wives."
This answers the question because it acknowledges that the words are different.
Unless this is another game--the "simple" question is actually composed of three questions--see the three question marks?
The first question is a loaded question and isn't worthy of an answer.
The second question is answered, and reanswered, and will probably be reanswered again in the exact same language if you ask again.
"Context?" is a complex question that isn't all that important.If you find my answers unsatisfactory, too bad! I don't care. If you can't respect other people in discourse, don't expect respect in return. Answer your own questions to the amusement of the literate public.
If you can't put anything further productive here towards the discussion, you are wasting everybody's time. Reading page after page of posts where you have quoted yourself is a colossal waste of time to all involved, except perhaps yourself.
Of course your questions are more important than the questions of anybody else...that is why you don't answer questions put to you, right? I propose that it is because the answers would make you into admit something that you don't want to admit; namely that a person can be a homosexual and a muslim.
Is truth so uncomfortable to you that you can't embrace it? group
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Logic is different based oon human perception.
Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?
Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)Which part is "self-contradicting" according to you.
These rules? (refer here)
Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)
Yo made generalization too hasty.How u judge if Al-fahishah/lewdness especially in Luth verses is homosecual?
Please read 37135.If the reason of God punish Sodom is homosexual/gay act then why the old lady(possibly Luth's wife) also been punished too??
Rule relating to reasoning..
And the example of a bad word
is like a bad tree
uprooted from the surface of the earth
not having any stability
(1426)I don't mean bad word to you.That mine post didn't complete.And I must add "to say this" after word "sorry".
Peace
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Which part is "self-contradicting" according to you.
Salam
Of course it is self contradicting, how can you say "Allah is allowing sexual intercourse between same sex", and at the same time it is a "transgression"? Did Allah mistakenly told the story or say something which is futility in His Book?
In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.
We just need "mates", same gender or else; ie. may also include animals etc, as long it is "mates".
How hard for you to understand this simple logic?
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salam
You are just spamming this thread with your "straw discussion".
Wishful thinking, and it is not from the Qur'an!
Refer to my earlier post, Allah says, "Enjoy Yourselves" ;D
Peace.
Whatever. )
Somebody else can feed the troll.
I have no time for you anymore. Indeed, reading this topic and others will be refreshing without having to wade through your comments.
Welcome to my ignore list!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Again you only pick some part of my post, then comment for it.
Of course it is self contradicting, how can you say "Allah is allowing sexual intercourse between same sex", and at the same time it is a "transgression"?
What God blame for transgression??
I already told you, even @Abdul-Hadi also said to u.What God condemns in 780 is faahisyah not homosexual.
Is homosexual the faahisyah in that verse??No absolutely not
-First ayat 1660 (old lady also been punished for faahisyah)
-Second homosexual already happens before Luth era.If homosexual is faahishah then Luth and God Himself contradict the fact.If necessary please remove your logic sciences, if u keep avoid the facts.
Peace
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Salam
Therefore, you are making the following conclusion
Did Allah mistakenly told the story or say something which is futility in His Book?
and is therefore self contradicting the following verse
Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book
whose verses are made DECISIVE <- eg. La ilaha illa Allah
then are they made PLAIN <- explanation, refer here and (2.67-71)
from the Wise, All-aware
(111)Alif laam raa, (inilah) suatu kitab
yang ayat-ayatnya disusun dengan rapi
serta dijelaskan secara terperinci
yang diturunkan dari sisi (Allah) Yang Maha Bijaksana lagi Maha Tahu,
(111)Alif, Laam, Raa'. Al-Quran sebuah Kitab
yang tersusun ayat-ayatnya dengan tetap teguh
kemudian dijelaskan pula kandungannya satu persatu
(Susunan dan penjelasan itu) adalah dari sisi Allah Yang Maha Bijaksana, lagi Maha Mendalam pengetahuanNya
(111)The verse is now, according to you, is not perfect.
It is inserted there with no purpose.
and
Is homosexual the faahisyah in that verse??No absolutely not
refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340756#msg340756
How about sexual intercourse with animals?
Can human beings make sexual intercourse with chickens? birds? goats? cows? cats?
(Warning!! please buy health insurance to cover costs of surgery before involving with any of these animals, especially cats! I disclaim any responsibility for any wrongful or ridiculous advice from any members in this forum! ;D )Is it faahisyah?
Allah did not mention it in the Qur'an, and people can declare it as their "mates" to escape any prohibitions, or even human laws (defence of lawful religious practices etc.).
Is this your logic? confused
(from here, main issue)
The problem of difference in tafseer within Quranist is lack of study and lack of wisdom and clear thinking.
I try to use wisdomly conclusion for this cause, read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605584.msg332714#msg332714
I already told you if 235-6 is not about marriage, but guard private parts from mate (mate can be same-sex gender).
I believe you have much wisdom and clear thinking to answer all these contradictions.
Therefore..
How do you answer all these self contradictions?
Peace
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Salam
How the rules in the Qur'an is plain, perfect and detail?
The Qur'an is very clear and detailed by using the method of "exclusionary principle". Therefore the rules in the Qur'an are very precise and direct. Of course, there are other methods.
Facts
"... And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives or those their right hands possess..." (7029-31)
Analysis
And those
who guard <- What is "guard"? Scope?
their private parts <- What is "private parts"? Scope?
Except <- The implication of the word "except"? An exclusion to all other than marriages?
from
their wives <- Is it referring to "marriage"? What is "wives"?Question
Whether Allah has permitted "marriage" (or those their right hands possess) and PROHIBIT EVERYTHING ELSE?
(ie. same-sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, child marriage, animal sex, polygamy, incest etc)
Therefore, the Qur'an does not need to mention the prohibition of sexual intercourse with animals or all other sexual offences, and at the same time, being fully detailed. That is how verses in the Qur'an is plain, perfect and fully detailed; ie. the "exclusionary principle".
These were only my views. Allah Knows Best .
Peace
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Your question's pattern is sorry it's nonsense for me, and my answer actually both A and B.
MAJOR QUESTION/ISSUE
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
Salam
What nonsense?
Please read again, I say "anyone", with "quote"!!
Do you understand what is "anyone"?
Therefore your answer is B; ie. "Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"
Wow.. That's pretty easy!
Is this wisdom and clear thinking?
Sounds like there are no rules at all to homosexuals.
Are you sure this is your logic? confused
I believe you have much wisdom and clear thinking to answer all these contradictions.
Ok actually I get bored talking about homosexuality in this forum, but because it seems some members in here didn't study the Quran properly
...
but there is no verse in the Quran which prohibit same sex marriage, if that verse is exist, just bring it to me.
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If you disagree with this, then bring me one verse in the Quran which told us to judging or punish gays and lesbian.If you capable, I will hail to you.
Peace
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The verse is now, according to you, is not perfect.
It is inserted there with no purpose.
Yes it's according to your perception.So do not make refutation.
refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340756#msg340756
Okay what I want critics from @Alkitab is this
- 27 - 55
2755(What! do you indeed approach men with desire rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.
The huruf alif-hamzah in there is interogatif prefix, means used for interrogate people.That huruf can be mean is/are-you, why etc.
But @Alkitab translated that alif-hamzah as "what!", which indicated if that sentence is a response not interrogate.Plus he translate the word bal/ as "nay".Nay or not in Arabic is kala/ or simply laa/.
Bal is conjunctive, in english="but".The proper translation of 2755 according to me is
"Why that you appoarch male sexually not another female,but you're ignorant people.??"This verse actually a question from Luth to his people not a response.The another proof is the next 2756.
" ...."
"Then some/no answer (from) his people..."Now I want ask you, since when homosexual=al faahishah??
From verses 1559-60, 780, it's clearly explisit.Sodom commited sin/lewdness not a homosexual. (by looking 780).
Verse 780 is also clearly said if homosex didn't included as faahishah in Luth' story.If you read Luth story carefully,by using Tanakh-Old Testament aslo, actually what Sodom mens did is forced rape not a pure homosexual.
As I said to judge if homosexual is haram or not is by looking what cause they do that??
Why God create humans with homosex brains while he condemn the homosexual act??Is God do contradictions??If we study Quran we must see the context.Which one is God's commanment, which one is human/phrophet saying??
Whether Allah has permitted "marriage" (or those their right hands possess) and PROHIBIT EVERYTHING ELSE?
(ie. same-sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, child marriage, animal sex, polygamy, incest etc)
So according to you, masturbation is a marriage??
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So according to you, masturbation is a marriage??
Salam
You seriously need to read again, I don't know where you get that idea.
Further, are you going to keep ignoring the questions or issues and jump from one to the other?
Is this how you decide what is right or wrong?
By ignoring what people are asking you, and diverting to other irrelevant issues?
Peace