Gay and Muslim?

GODsubmitter

I am really enjoying this, it is like watching a tennis grand slam being played without any balls

Bing bang
Bang bing

batting the air.

Salaam

But is is not even amusing...

just utter nonsense...

bookish

But is is not even amusing...

just utter nonsense...

I couldn't agree more. It's turning into an earthdom vs muslims thread jedi. I'm not even getting what the argument is about....

I have a suggestion for brothers earthdom and muslims please take your discussion off this thread...debate it among yourselves.....and then you can come back and tell us how the debate concluded.

We are certainly interested in knowing how the debate concluded....but not in the name-calling that you both are getting into...

muslims

Salam

Sorry.. but this is the issue

Rules relating to "private parts" in the Qur'an (main issue) ...

ISSUE

Whether...

Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else.

if yes, then...

Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/woman
and there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".

and whereas...

EARTHDOM'S ARGUMENTS

Earthdom's argument is..

"Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)"

Reason Homosexuality is not specifically forbidden in the Qur'an

What God blame for transgression??

I already told you, even @Abdul-Hadi also said to u.What God condemns in 780 is faahisyah not homosexual.

Is homosexual the faahisyah in that verse??No absolutely not

-First ayat 1660 (old lady also been punished for faahisyah)
-Second homosexual already happens before Luth era.If homosexual is faahishah then Luth and God Himself contradict the fact.

My counterarguments against Earthdom (refer here)

How about sexual intercourse with animals?

Can human beings make sexual intercourse with chickens? birds? goats? cows? cats?
(Warning!! please buy health insurance to cover costs of surgery before involving with any of these animals, especially cats! I disclaim any responsibility for any wrongful or ridiculous advice from any members in this forum! ;D )

Is it faahisyah?

Allah did not mention it in the Qur'an, and people can declare it as their "mates" to escape any prohibitions, or even human laws (defence of lawful religious practices etc.).

Now, do you realize your conclusion that "mates" can be of the same sex (or different sex) means all the rules in "the Qur'an is now self-contradicting"?

All the rules relating to sexual prohibitions in the Qur'an is meaningless?

These rules? (refer here)

Including the rules that say homosexual is a transgression? (ie. the Qur'an is now self contradicting)

In fact, we don't need rules relating to marriages.

Is this your logic?

A self-contradicting Qur'an?

This is what Earthdom have agreed so far.

This is your conclusion.

This is what you have agreed (see reference).

The word "mates" is referring to "spouses" and "marriage according to the Qur'an". Nonetheless, homosexual can also use their private parts to anyone whether or not there is marriage.

No. 1. YES, you agree homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone"; marriages and unions which are not marriages according to the Qur'an.

No. 2. YES, you agree the word "mates" mean "spouses"

No. 3. YES, you agree the word "spouses" means "husband and wife" and "marriages".

No. 4. YES, you agree the word marriages" means "marriages according to the Qur'an", except in (235-6), ie. zina prevention.

No. 5. YES, you agree that the issue of zina prevention in (235-6) is your own personal terms and does not relate to the Qur'an. It should not be discussed.

No. 6. Therefore and from point No. 5, (235-6) should be the same as (7019-35), ie. context relating to transgressions;

MY ARGUMENTS

My argument is...

Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)

Reason The Qur'an is not an Encyclopedia and does not need to mention all sexual offences. Allah only mention rules relating "private parts" and ALL HUMAN BEINGS have private parts. Accordingly, this rule applies to all, straight or homosexual. They must use their "private parts" only to their wives/spouses, ie. marriages according to the Qur'an.

(from here)

Therefore, the Qur'an does not need to mention the prohibition of sexual intercourse with animals or all other sexual offences, and at the same time, being fully detailed. That is how verses in the Qur'an is plain, perfect and fully detailed; ie. the "exclusionary principle".

INTRO METHODOLOGY

Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book
whose verses are made DECISIVE <- eg. La ilaha illa Allah
then are they made PLAIN <- explanation, refer here and (2.67-71)
from the Wise, All-aware
(111)

Earthdom's Counterarguments The word in the verse is "mates".

This counterargument is now not valid since Earthdom agree that the actual word is "spouses"

Please use common sense, what I mean mate is spouse of course

If we look by the conteks of the verses, mates (zawaj) is spouse.Spouses is neutral in gender, it can be male or female.

Of course spouse is neutral. Spouse is not a gender. It represents both husband and wife and no gender! Can we say "husband spouse" or "wife spouse"? Is marriage a gender? Male or female, boy or girl, man or woman is gender. Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.

refer here, and different translations

http//s10.postimg.org/q7yexo3k9/mates.png

Peace

unknownuser

We are certainly interested in knowing how the debate concluded....but not in the name-calling that you both are getting into...

We may play name-calling, but it's litte.Human's patience have some limitation.
But name-calling is not the purpose for our discussion.

Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/womanand there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".

RED-BLUE Has no correlation.
The example is Beauty salon mostly have female consuments.Is this means male cannot be a consument??

http//s10.postimg.org/q7yexo3k9/mates.png

You used human-made definitions for what is marriage-spouses.

Peace

muslims

Salam

Please explain further, I don't understand your point or what you are trying to object.

By the way.. do you agree with this ayat?

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction
(482)

Do you agree the rules in the Qur'an does not have a contradiction?

Peace.

unknownuser

I see the homosexual is not forbidden but "against the standart".

5345 And He is the One who has created the pair, the male and the female.

By saying this, Is God forbids homosexual.As long as no prohibition, it's okay.

The example is, like I said before

-The standart The consuments of beauty salon is female.
Is this means, a male consuments cannot go to beauty salon??

As long as no prohibition, we okay to go there.

muslims

As long as no prohibition, we okay to go there.

Salam

Don't repeat what we have already discussed.

We are discussing here because I'm showing you the rule relating to "private parts".

Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?

If they have "private parts", why should they be exempted from this rule?

Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?

Which ayat? show me...

Please also answer the above question.

Peace

unknownuser

Ok I agree.

SEGMEN 1RIVATE PART

Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?

Yes I do.All human being have "private part".

If they have "private parts", why should they be exempted from this rule?

You have many rules.Please show me the one, show we can take your rule as main pilar for our discussion.

muslims

You have many rules.Please show me the one, show we can take your rule as main pilar for our discussion.

Salam

Why are you replying like you don't know which verse we are discussing all this while?

I have already given you an ayat relating to "private parts".

and.. you agree homosexual have "private parts".

Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with this rule.

UNLESS, you can show me an ayat that they are exempted from this rule.

Why are you playing dumb and like you don't understand what we have been discussing all this while?

Do you desperately need to distort Allah's words for your reputation or ego?

If not.. then give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".

Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?

Peace

unknownuser

Why are you playing dumb and like you don't understand what we have been discussing all this while?

If not.. then give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".

Both of us play dumb.If we create an arguments, we must anticipate first for is the interlocutars understand what I said

Verse about private part ( I also already explained multiples time)

Verses about "guard private part" is 235-6

23.5 And who () keep covered their private parts.
23.6 Except around their mates (), or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.

The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!

This means this verse is neutral in gender and translation.
And verse 7029-31 is a repetation of 235-6.

If you don't understand what I mean, which part?
Indeed mate (zaawaja) is neutral in contexs of the ayats.

So how this relate to homosexs case??

muslims

This means this verse is neutral in gender and translation.

If you don't understand what I mean, which part?
Indeed mate (zaawaja) is neutral in contexs of the ayats.

So how this relate to homosexs case??

Salam

Is this your ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rule relating to private parts? confused

By the way... when did "spouses" become a gender?

When did "mates" become a gender?

Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?

Which school?

Is "marriage" a gender?

Is "perkahwinan" a gender? Is a "man"?, Is a "woman"?, "lelaki"? "wanita"? laugh

Of course spouse is neutral. Spouse is not a gender. It represents both husband and wife and no gender! Can we say "husband spouse" or "wife spouse"? Is marriage a gender? Male or female, boy or girl, man or woman is gender. Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.

So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?

Peace

unknownuser

Is this your ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from this rule? confused

Yes

By the way... when did spouses become a gender?

Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?

Is marriage a gender?

Is "perkahwinan" a gender? "man", "woman", lelaki? wanita?

Indeed you always use non-Quranic definition for this terms.You mostly use english definition.So I confused

I never said spouses is gender.

If we intepretate verse 235-6 in our language

"Dan para pria yang menjaga kemaluannya, kecuali terhadap pasangan (pria) mereka atau tangan kanan (ma malakat aymanukum), maka sesungguhnya dalam hali ini dia tiada tercela"

The word "pasangan" in Arabic is azwaj or zawjah,and this word is male in gender/masculine.
Quran indeed show some neutrality in gender

muslims

I never said spouses is gender.The word zawjah is can be male or female.

Salam

Do you capable of understanding what I'm saying to you?

You just repeat what I've replied, and raising the same issue, over and over again.

What have I said?

Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.

Now.. what is the context?

The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.

See? you say it masculine... ie. it is referring to men...

and the word "mates" or "spouses" is neutral.. it is not a gender.

Therefore, the word "mates" or "spouses" must follow or be defined according to the context of "masculinity"

Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.

ie.... referring to "wives" or "spouses"

Can you understand this?

Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

Peace

I never said spouses is gender.

read again... and see how you contradict your own statements!

The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!

By the way... when did "spouses" become a gender?

When did "mates" become a gender?

Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?

unknownuser

Do you capable of understanding what I'm saying to you?

This supposed to be mine question to you.

Now.. what is the context?

Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET.

and the word "mates" or "spouses" is neutral.. it is not a gender.

Yes and please remove english definition,The authorized Quran for human is in Arabic, so we may understand what is "mate" by see the Arabic text. not by using modern english dictionaries like you did so far.

Therefore, the word "mates" or "spouses" must follow or defined to the context of "masculine"

Of course,
the example is
What reason for Reformist translation to judge if the word yatim in 2220, 43, and 46 is male in gender ??
The answer is http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605800.msg338096#msg338096

ie.... referring to "wives" or "spouses"

Can you understand this?

I understand since long ago.But u keep use english definition, while Quran we used is in Arabic.

Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

Too understand this question, you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.

muslims

Too understand this question, you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.

Salam

See how you keep repeating the same question?

Let me prove to you...

My question

Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?

Your answer

Yes I do.All human being have "private part".

Therefore...

Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with this rule.

UNLESS, you can show me an ayat that they are exempted from this rule.

Therefore the issue now is whether Allah exempted homosexual from the rule relating to "private parts"?

and how many times I have asked you?

Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?

give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".

So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?

Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

and yet.. you play dumb and ask the same question

you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.

see big red above, because homosexual have private parts!!!

read main issue...

The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an

ALL human beings have private parts (including homosexual)

Therefore, Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else.

Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/woman
and there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".

So.. what is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?

OR...

Prove to me that homosexuals have no private parts! ;D

Peace

unknownuser

Ok I nearly give up

Please explain What is "extempting from this rule relating private parts"??

muslims

Ok I nearly give up

Please explain What is "extempting from this rule relating private parts"??

Salam

Exemption is an ayat from Allah than says homosexual "dikecualikan daripada peraturan tersebut"....

ex?empt (g-zmpt)
tr.v. ex?empt?ed, ex?empt?ing, ex?empts

To free from an obligation, a duty, or a liability to which others are subject exempting the disabled from military service.
Obsolete To set apart; isolate.

and...

Why give up?

Suddenly you realize you are making false claims in the name of Allah?

Do you realize when you intentionally hide or deny the truth, and people are reading your argument and believe in it, your repentance will not be accepted by Allah forever, UNTIL you explain to all those who have read your arguments that you are making a mistake and hiding the truth?

Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang menyembunyikan
apa yang telah Kami turunkan
berupa keterangan-keterangan (yang jelas) dan petunjuk
setelah Kami menerangkannya kepada manusia dalam Al Kitab
mereka itu dilaknati Allah
dan dilaknati (pula) oleh semua (mahluk) yang dapat melaknati
kecuali mereka yang telah taubat
dan mengadakan perbaikan
dan menerangkan (kebenaran) <- condition for repentance
maka terhadap mereka itulah
Aku menerima taubatnya
dan Akulah Yang Maha Menerima taubat lagi Maha Penyayang
(2159-160)

Just a friendly reminder, it is up to you but it will be grievous if you intentionally ignored the above ayat after being reminded.

Peace.

unknownuser

Exemption is an ayat from Allah than says homosexual "dikecualikan daripada peraturan tersebut"....

Exemption = an ayat from Allah??
Which ayat talking about your "exemption".

This is your own tafseer?? and has nothing to do with mine.

Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET

and...

Why give up?

Suddenly you realize you are making false claims in the name of Allah?

Do you realize when you intentionally hide the truth, and as long people are reading your argument and believe in it, your repentance is not acceptable by Allah, UNTIL you explain to all those who have read that you are making a mistake?

Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang menyembunyikan
apa yang telah Kami turunkan
berupa keterangan-keterangan (yang jelas) dan petunjuk
setelah Kami menerangkannya kepada manusia dalam Al Kitab
mereka itu dilaknati Allah
dan dilaknati (pula) oleh semua (mahluk) yang dapat melaknati
kecuali mereka yang telah taubat
dan mengadakan perbaikan
dan menerangkan (kebenaran) <- condition for repentance
maka terhadap mereka itulah Aku menerima taubatnya
dan Akulah Yang Maha Menerima taubat lagi Maha Penyayang
(2159-160)

You accuse me for hiding the God's verses and you order me to do taubat??
Discussion is about how each people with his own "truth" can archieve the "single truth".

Dont do fitnah to me, because fitnah is more worse than murder (2191).

Hence until now, we we still don't know who is the "true" one??

muslims

Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET

Salam

I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, which might cause you to regret for your entire life.

and...

Who is talking about homosexuals?

Do you read the main issue?

Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".

I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"

If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.

This rule only apply to those who have "private parts"!

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

How many times I have to ask you, and how long you want to play dumb?

Peace

unknownuser

I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, that you may regret for your entire life.

You may so, because you see anykind of case without wisdom.

and...

Do you read the main issue?

Who is talking about homosexuals?

You have many issues ang confusing language in your posts.
Yourself who talking about homosexual, like relating homosexual<=>strange private part rules.

This thread talk about gay, not your misreable arguments.

I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"

If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.

But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"

Which ayat?

First I want to ask.What's "private part" according to ur definition??
So I can understand your mindmaps corrrectly.

Please bapak, jangan bercanda kepada saya.