Gay and Muslim?
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As long as no prohibition, we okay to go there.
Salam
Don't repeat what we have already discussed.
We are discussing here because I'm showing you the rule relating to "private parts".
Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?
If they have "private parts", why should they be exempted from this rule?
Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?
Which ayat? show me...
Please also answer the above question.
Peace
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Ok I agree.
SEGMEN 1RIVATE PART
Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?
Yes I do.All human being have "private part".
If they have "private parts", why should they be exempted from this rule?
You have many rules.Please show me the one, show we can take your rule as main pilar for our discussion.
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You have many rules.Please show me the one, show we can take your rule as main pilar for our discussion.
Salam
Why are you replying like you don't know which verse we are discussing all this while?
I have already given you an ayat relating to "private parts".
and.. you agree homosexual have "private parts".
Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with this rule.
UNLESS, you can show me an ayat that they are exempted from this rule.
Why are you playing dumb and like you don't understand what we have been discussing all this while?
Do you desperately need to distort Allah's words for your reputation or ego?
If not.. then give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".
Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?
Peace
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Why are you playing dumb and like you don't understand what we have been discussing all this while?
If not.. then give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".
Both of us play dumb.If we create an arguments, we must anticipate first for is the interlocutars understand what I said
Verse about private part ( I also already explained multiples time)
Verses about "guard private part" is 235-6
23.5 And who () keep covered their private parts.
23.6 Except around their mates (), or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!This means this verse is neutral in gender and translation.
And verse 7029-31 is a repetation of 235-6.If you don't understand what I mean, which part?
Indeed mate (zaawaja) is neutral in contexs of the ayats.So how this relate to homosexs case??
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This means this verse is neutral in gender and translation.
If you don't understand what I mean, which part?
Indeed mate (zaawaja) is neutral in contexs of the ayats.So how this relate to homosexs case??
Salam
Is this your ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rule relating to private parts? confused
By the way... when did "spouses" become a gender?
When did "mates" become a gender?
Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?
Which school?
Is "marriage" a gender?
Is "perkahwinan" a gender? Is a "man"?, Is a "woman"?, "lelaki"? "wanita"? laugh
Of course spouse is neutral. Spouse is not a gender. It represents both husband and wife and no gender! Can we say "husband spouse" or "wife spouse"? Is marriage a gender? Male or female, boy or girl, man or woman is gender. Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.
So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?
Peace
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Is this your ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from this rule? confused
Yes
By the way... when did spouses become a gender?
Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?
Is marriage a gender?
Is "perkahwinan" a gender? "man", "woman", lelaki? wanita?
Indeed you always use non-Quranic definition for this terms.You mostly use english definition.So I confused
I never said spouses is gender.
If we intepretate verse 235-6 in our language
"Dan para pria yang menjaga kemaluannya, kecuali terhadap pasangan (pria) mereka atau tangan kanan (ma malakat aymanukum), maka sesungguhnya dalam hali ini dia tiada tercela"
The word "pasangan" in Arabic is azwaj or zawjah,and this word is male in gender/masculine.
Quran indeed show some neutrality in gender -
I never said spouses is gender.The word zawjah is can be male or female.
Salam
Do you capable of understanding what I'm saying to you?
You just repeat what I've replied, and raising the same issue, over and over again.
What have I said?
Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.
Now.. what is the context?
The blue word is allazi mean which, who, whom, whose and this is masculine.
See? you say it masculine... ie. it is referring to men...
and the word "mates" or "spouses" is neutral.. it is not a gender.
Therefore, the word "mates" or "spouses" must follow or be defined according to the context of "masculinity"
Therefore, the word spouse is neutral and must be defined according context of the verses, ie. referring to wives.
ie.... referring to "wives" or "spouses"
Can you understand this?
Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
Peace
I never said spouses is gender.
read again... and see how you contradict your own statements!
The red word is azwaj or zawaj, means mate (mate can be husband or wife) and interestingly the red word is also masculine!!
By the way... when did "spouses" become a gender?
When did "mates" become a gender?
Where did you learn "spouses" is a gender?
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Do you capable of understanding what I'm saying to you?
This supposed to be mine question to you.
Now.. what is the context?
Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET.
and the word "mates" or "spouses" is neutral.. it is not a gender.
Yes and please remove english definition,The authorized Quran for human is in Arabic, so we may understand what is "mate" by see the Arabic text. not by using modern english dictionaries like you did so far.
Therefore, the word "mates" or "spouses" must follow or defined to the context of "masculine"
Of course,
the example is
What reason for Reformist translation to judge if the word yatim in 2220, 43, and 46 is male in gender ??
The answer is http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605800.msg338096#msg338096ie.... referring to "wives" or "spouses"
Can you understand this?
I understand since long ago.But u keep use english definition, while Quran we used is in Arabic.
Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
Too understand this question, you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.
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Too understand this question, you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.
Salam
See how you keep repeating the same question?
Let me prove to you...
My question
Do you agree homosexual have "private parts"?
Your answer
Yes I do.All human being have "private part".
Therefore...
Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with this rule.
UNLESS, you can show me an ayat that they are exempted from this rule.
Therefore the issue now is whether Allah exempted homosexual from the rule relating to "private parts"?
and how many times I have asked you?
Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?
give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".
So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?
Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
and yet.. you play dumb and ask the same question
you must answer first for why homosexual related to your private parts'rule.
see big red above, because homosexual have private parts!!!
read main issue...
The prohibition of homosexuality is very clear and detailed in the Qur'an
ALL human beings have private parts (including homosexual)
Therefore, Allah has permitted "marriage" and has forbidden everything else.
Therefore, "same-sex-marriage" is prohibited since marriage is between man/woman
and there is no such things as using "private parts" to anyone other than
"wives" or "spouses".So.. what is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
OR...
Prove to me that homosexuals have no private parts! ;D
Peace
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Ok I nearly give up
Please explain What is "extempting from this rule relating private parts"??
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Ok I nearly give up
Please explain What is "extempting from this rule relating private parts"??
Salam
Exemption is an ayat from Allah than says homosexual "dikecualikan daripada peraturan tersebut"....
ex?empt (g-zmpt)
tr.v. ex?empt?ed, ex?empt?ing, ex?empts- To free from an obligation, a duty, or a liability to which others are subject exempting the disabled from military service.
- Obsolete To set apart; isolate.
and...
Why give up?
Suddenly you realize you are making false claims in the name of Allah?
Do you realize when you intentionally hide or deny the truth, and people are reading your argument and believe in it, your repentance will not be accepted by Allah forever, UNTIL you explain to all those who have read your arguments that you are making a mistake and hiding the truth?
Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang menyembunyikan
apa yang telah Kami turunkan
berupa keterangan-keterangan (yang jelas) dan petunjuk
setelah Kami menerangkannya kepada manusia dalam Al Kitab
mereka itu dilaknati Allah
dan dilaknati (pula) oleh semua (mahluk) yang dapat melaknati
kecuali mereka yang telah taubat
dan mengadakan perbaikan
dan menerangkan (kebenaran) <- condition for repentance
maka terhadap mereka itulah
Aku menerima taubatnya
dan Akulah Yang Maha Menerima taubat lagi Maha Penyayang
(2159-160)Just a friendly reminder, it is up to you but it will be grievous if you intentionally ignored the above ayat after being reminded.
Peace.
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Exemption is an ayat from Allah than says homosexual "dikecualikan daripada peraturan tersebut"....
Exemption = an ayat from Allah??
Which ayat talking about your "exemption".This is your own tafseer?? and has nothing to do with mine.
Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET
and...
Why give up?
Suddenly you realize you are making false claims in the name of Allah?
Do you realize when you intentionally hide the truth, and as long people are reading your argument and believe in it, your repentance is not acceptable by Allah, UNTIL you explain to all those who have read that you are making a mistake?
Sesungguhnya orang-orang yang menyembunyikan
apa yang telah Kami turunkan
berupa keterangan-keterangan (yang jelas) dan petunjuk
setelah Kami menerangkannya kepada manusia dalam Al Kitab
mereka itu dilaknati Allah
dan dilaknati (pula) oleh semua (mahluk) yang dapat melaknati
kecuali mereka yang telah taubat
dan mengadakan perbaikan
dan menerangkan (kebenaran) <- condition for repentance
maka terhadap mereka itulah Aku menerima taubatnya
dan Akulah Yang Maha Menerima taubat lagi Maha Penyayang
(2159-160)You accuse me for hiding the God's verses and you order me to do taubat??
Discussion is about how each people with his own "truth" can archieve the "single truth".Dont do fitnah to me, because fitnah is more worse than murder (2191).
Hence until now, we we still don't know who is the "true" one??
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Indeed Verses 235-6 and 7029-30 is not talking about homosexual YET
Salam
I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, which might cause you to regret for your entire life.
and...
Who is talking about homosexuals?
Do you read the main issue?
- Please, no rambling about Lut etc. I'm not discussing about "Lut's nation", but I'm discussing about the rules relating to "private parts". Therefore, please give your authority and clear verses that homosexual can use their "private parts" to anyone, other than "wives" or "spouses".
I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"
If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.
This rule only apply to those who have "private parts"!
But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"
Which ayat?
How many times I have to ask you, and how long you want to play dumb?
Peace
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I just remind you, It is up to you, and it is your choice, that you may regret for your entire life.
You may so, because you see anykind of case without wisdom.
and...
Do you read the main issue?
Who is talking about homosexuals?
You have many issues ang confusing language in your posts.
Yourself who talking about homosexual, like relating homosexual<=>strange private part rules.This thread talk about gay, not your misreable arguments.
I'm talking about "homosexual who have private parts"
If they have no "private parts", they can ignore the rule.
But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"
Which ayat?
First I want to ask.What's "private part" according to ur definition??
So I can understand your mindmaps corrrectly.Please bapak, jangan bercanda kepada saya.
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This thread talk about gay, not your misreable arguments.
First I want to ask.What's "private part" according to ur definition??
So I can understand your mindmaps corrrectly.Please bapak, jangan bercanda kepada saya.
Salam
Fine, you understand every explanations and wish to distort the words in the Qur'an, according to your agenda.
What is "private parts" that is related to "spouses"?
How hard for you to understand that? confused
Further, your question is not even the issue which you are trying to distract from.
The issue is whether homosexuals have "private parts".
You yourself agrees that they have "private parts".
No one can deny this.
Therefore, they are equally obliged to comply with the rule relating to "private parts".
UNLESS...
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You can show me the ayat that they are exempted from complying the rule relating to "private parts", OR
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You can prove to me that homosexuals have no "private parts".
No. 2 is excluded since you have agreed that homosexuals have "private parts".
So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
Where is the ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject?
Peace.
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Fine, you understand and wish to distort the words in the Qur'an, according to your agenda.
My agenda is see the homosexual case with wisdom and 3adil, so no parties can feel aggrieved.
http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-e1R5El-bxIE/T8Wxski2J_I/AAAAAAAAHhw/UhXBhSDb9Rs/s320/lesbian.jpg
http//pbs.twimg.com/media/BBWmn_8CEAAlk3a.jpglargeNow I ask, by seeing ths kinds of photo, you suddenly feel emotion withouh anykind of wisdom prespective??
What is "private parts" that is related to "spouses"?
How hard for you to understand that? confused
Please this is not market debate.Why yu keep relating homosexual with priivate part rules??
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My agenda is see the homosexual case with wisdom and 3adil, so no parties can feel aggrieved.
Now I ask, by seeing ths kinds of photo, you suddenly feel emotion withouh anykind of wisdom prespective??
Please this is not market debate.Why yu keep relating homosexual with priivate part rules??
Salam
How is all that related to my question?
Are you playing dumb, or you are really dumb? confused
And you cannot guide
the blind away from their error
You will only make hear
those who believe in Our verses
so they are Muslims .
(3053)and...
So that is your principle?
Causing or assisting corruption on earth so people see you as person of wisdom?
Is that what you want people to see you?
Is this the idea of righteousness to you?
From a sectarian perspective?
So that people can idol you?
So you can become a hero?
For praise?
That's it?
And do not exchange My signs for a small price
and fear Me
241So direct your face toward the deen, inclining to truth
the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created people
No change should there be in the deen of Allah
That is the correct deen
but most of the people do not know
(3030)Indeed, your Lord is most knowing
of who has gone astray from His way
and He is most knowing of the guided
Then DO NOT obey the deniers <- REFER HERE, are they Muslim?
They wish that you would soften
so they would soften
And do not obey
every worthless habitual swearer
scorner, going about with malicious gossip
A preventer of good
transgressing
and sinful
Cruel, moreover
and an illegitimate pretender
(687-13)and how many times you are using deception to avoid the issue... raising one after another?
see for yourself... doesn't look like a muslim or believer at all
Do you have an ayat to prove that they are exempted from this rule?
give me an ayat to show that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts".
So.. where is the ayat to show that homosexual is exempted from the rules relating to "private parts"?
Now.. where is the ayat to show that homosexuals are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
But since you have agreed that they have "private parts", then show me an ayat that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"
Which ayat?
So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
So.. where is the ayat to show that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"?
Peace
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and how many times you are using deception to avoid the issue... raising one after another?
see for yourself... doesn't look like a muslim or believer at all
Homosexual is interesting topic, because this is very crusial, to determine the homosexual's position within Islam.
So that's why I keep interested to get discussion with you patiently.
If this is not about homosexual or other crusial problems, I will be dead interested for get discussion like this.I try to be patients for minutes, and I try to ask what is the meanign of "exemption from private rules"
I don't problem with the english meaning, but to avoid missintepretation, I ask you to explain your question in simple meaning.
But the result, yu just call me dumb.Please introspection, Do you think your posts can be easily understand by others??
NOTEC'mon bro, lets not create conflict like say dumb or something.I dont want create "enemy" in this forum especially to you.
Even you're an Arab, you're a Malaysian, you're my family.Let's think about the future of Quranist development in Nusantara.Peace
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Homosexual is interesting topic, because this is very crusial, to determine the homosexual's position within Islam.
So that's why I keep interested to get discussion with you patiently.
If this is not about homosexual or other crusial problems, I will be dead interested for get discussion like this.I try to be patients for minutes, and I try to ask what is the meanign of "exemption from private rules"
I don't problem with the english meaning, but to avoid missintepretation, I ask you to explain your question in simple meaning.
But the result, yu just call me dumb.Please introspection, Do you think your posts can be easily understand by others??
NOTEC'mon bro, lets not create conflict like say dumb or something.I dont want create "enemy" in this forum especially to you.
Even you're an Arab, you're a Malaysian, you're my family.Let's think about the future of Quranist development in Nusantara.Salam
I'm not saying, I'm asking you. There is difference between "saying" it and "asking".
and...
How hard to understand ABC?
|
Premise 1|
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
Premise 2|
Gays are men and have "private parts"|
|
|
Therefore (rule)|
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives|
|
This is written rule in the Qur'an, sound and clear!
No one can change this rule.
Therefore and to escape this rule, you must bring one verse showing that they are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"? (the above rule)
You must show that Allah sets them free from this obligation, which others are subject.
Example
General rule, 1 wife
Exception/exemption 4 wivesGeneral rule Cannot eat flesh swine
Exception/exemption Can eat during emergencyHow hard can that be? confused
Therefore, I believe it is not that you don't understand, but you don't have the verse to prove that homosexual are exempted from the rule relating to "private parts"!
No one can deny this!
Whoever read the Qur'an knew there is no such verse.
And you have ask and receive my answer. I also have answered all your objections, to your satisfaction. Yet you just raise one issue to the other to distract from the main issue. Raising an irrelevant issues to our discussion.
Therefore, I believe you are just playing tricks or playing dumb!
Or...
Maybe you refused to understand, despite you have nothing else to object. Just to feed your ego.
Or...
Maybe you really don't understand. You are not fit for discussion because you cannot understand what is being discussed, or cannot understand simple logic.
Or...
Allah don't want you to understand, for any reason, and no one can help you.
Allah knows best.
Take one or two days or any number of days of your choice and read all over again carefully.
(from here, including the links)
We discuss it later.
Maybe that is best for you.
Peace.
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One of the reason, the discussion cannot further, because some missunderstanding.
Premise 1
The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives
Premise 2
Gays are men and have "private parts"Therefore
Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wivesAs I said multiple times, if zawjaz is neutral in gender.So the contex is just not merely malw-female relationship.
This can also like this "Men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/male mates"
General rule, 1 wife
Exception/exemption 4 wivesGeneral rule Cannot eat flesh swine
Exception/exemption Can eat during emergencyNo verses, talking about same gender relationship as general rule, but Allah also never said directly if homosexual is to be condemned.
Even in 2755's case, this is just missintepretation according to me.Maybe you are not fit for discussion because you cannot understand what is being discussed, or cannot understand simple logic.
Because you keep force your own rules to me and in the fact I have different intepretation of the Quran from you.
Peace